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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  00:46:54  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:

Of course that now leaves two unidentified lost gods to detail and still no idea of who Camnod the unseen might be, just that he lived in the lands around netheril.



I'm no grognard when it comes to realmslore, so I'll take your words as gospel :)

Even so, do you think Shuruppak the assassin could be a candidate for one of the Seven? From descriptions, he doesn't seem to be in quite in the same league as Maram or Borem, but possibly he could compare to Haask or Tyranthraxus (pre-disembodyment).

My link is pretty weak. To elaborate on the "Jergal being inspired by Nergal" idea, IRL Shuruppak was a place dedicated to the mother of Nergal, and I seem to recall reading that the Forgotten Realms version of Shuruppak was a suspected pawn of Jergal's. But that may just have been theorycraft.

Would be interesting to know if there is anything canon-wise that could support the idea.



What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  19:55:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well even though I've been studying Netheril intensely for nearly a year now I'm no more a grognard than anyone else, so please call me out on anything you think I've got wrong then we can swap evidence and see who is right.

As for Shuruppak I'm reluctant to link him as one of the lost gods to the dark three and i'll explain why.

The Dark Three were obsessed with a quest for divinity according to the lore we have. They seem to have stumbled onto the idea of attaining divinity through the accumulation of raw power. They also look to know that a god requires followers in order to survive.

It seems almost certain that they discovered a path to divinity that Tchazzar also discovered and likely several other beings as well. This discovery may have had divine help but that seems unlikely given that it would only result in more competition for the existing deities for mortal attention.

So their quest involved acquiring raw power through whatever means (magic, experience, even enslaving the souls of powerful beings). Jergal seems to have had a hand in getting them the souls of powerful beings since all sources agree he provided the Jathiman Dagger to the Dark Three and it was used on Borem and Haask. Although in my version this manipulation is subtle at first (agents or whispers help Bale discover the dagger and then later Bale uses the dagger to gain the souls of powerful creatures for Jergal's Code of Reversion).

While gathering this power The Dark Three also build Cults of Personality to build their worshipper base in preparation for their ascension.

Netheril and its surroundings were the location of all of this activity for what I believe is a good reason. The Old Empires were filled with divine beings, competing against them as mortals would be difficult and foolish. Jhaamdath was a psiocracy dedicated to the worship of Auppenser and his children making it a mix of psiocracy and theocracy, again making building a cult of personality difficult amongst a place with sanctioned (and unsanctioned) religions.

Netheril however was all about the accumulation of power. The archmages were not religious because they believe they could one day harness the power of the gods and become one themselves.
In such an environment all the Dark Three had to do was become more powerful and popular than the archmages and I honestly believe they did that by becoming the celebrity heroes of their age (although more like antiheroes in their methods).

Tyranthraxus was most likely a powerful yugoloth imprisoned by the trio nefarious that escaped towards the end of the shadowed age as the phaerimm magic drain dissolved his magical bonds.

Maram was in the Tortured Lands just east of Netheril.
Haask and Hargut were in the Moonsea again just east of Netheril. Both Maram and Haask threatened at least one of Netheril's successor kingdoms (Barze) and a route for the netherese diaspora.
Camnod the Unseen I have no idea but I'm suspecting somewhere around the High Forest/Tunland/Savage Frontier region.

Borem is a slight exception being on the border of Jhaamdath's land, but it involved the netherese diaspora because the lands around Westgate and the southern Dragon Coast were inundated with netherese refugees so its still linked to Netheril. Also Eric Boyd postulated the Borem and his lake were a bit like a mobile planar nexus that were capable of moving and so it may have affected Netheril in the past.

Basically the Lost Gods should only involve Netheril and those lands as that's where the cult building and power acquisition of the dark three began.

When Netheril ended that's when they moved onto Jhaamdath and that too ended. Then they returned to Jergal and just tried to outright steal his divinity.

Or at least that's how I'm spinning it. Therefore Shuruppak should not be involved with the Dark Three because he is in the Old Empires region and it doesn't look like they had much association there. Yes Myrkul came from the Old Empires but he was an exiled prince if I recall.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  20:21:33  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That does not mean however there could not be a link between Shuruppak and Jergal.

I have often wondered at the logic behind Shuruppak and Gilgeam. Gilgeam was a supremely paranoid despot who saw threats and plots everywhere. He never manifested an avatar (other than his divine vessel), and never fathered any children in case they turn against him.

Yet at the same he seemingly imbued a very powerful assassin with super powers and trust that he bestowed on no one else.

It just doesn't fit.

The nickname the Reaper could be a hint.

What if Shuruppak once served another, and the name "The Reaper" could be a connection to Nergal the god of the underworld.

The name similarities and portfolio similarities between Jergal and Nergal are very close, too close perhaps to be coincidence.


Now either the name/portfolio arose with the Untheric people, or it arose with the Netherese. Thanks to George Krashos article on Jergal we have him placed in both regions.

He brought the Nether Scrolls to the Imaskari (they then forged them into the Imaskarcana) and was forced from that region by the phaerimm where he fled to the Eastern Shaar and entered a stasis (gone awry) that saw him ascend to divinity during the century or so of his stasis.

This happened between -4370 and -3920 dr (the shartra period), and presumably before -4000 dr because he later encountered dwarves from Delzoun which was formed around -3900 dr.

So Jergal was known to the Imaskari as a bringer of death (the plagues) and he caused the Imaskari to bring the mulan to Toril in -4366 dr. It is therefore entirely possible that the mulan used the name of their own god (Nergal) to give a name to the being that caused the death of so many Imaskari and then this super being was forced out of Imaskar in a large spell battle with phaerimm. He later emerged as an undead monster and went on a rampage in the shaar which may also have come to the attention of the imaskari.

So Jergal could have been known as Nergal first and adopted that name as the only one pronouncible by human tongue when he travelled to the north of Faerun and it became corrupted in the Netherese tongue to Jergal.

Shuruppak could have been a creature that once served Nergal (the mulan god, not the spellweaver). But when Nergal perished during the orcgate war he was left without protection. He could have travelled south and discovered the sites left by Nergal (the spellweaver) and empowered himself using those sites, becoming immortal and indestructible). Gilgeam later enslaved him because he could not destroy him

It is mentioned that a number of Untheric deities fled south into the Shaar (driven out by Gilgeam and his tyranny). Nergal may not have died at all, but may have fled south and history was rewritten to show he died (Gilgeam is also known for rewriting Untheric history).

Shuruppak could be the remnants of Nergal the mulan deity merged with Nergal the spellweaver that was trapped in the shaar and ascended (his stasis in George's article describes a portal and a stasis spell which means he could have been split into multiple beings), who later returned to Unther possibly to help destroy Gilgeam (and doing that by getting close to him).

Personally I would leave Jergal and Nergal as separate and therefore have Shuruppak being completely unrelated to Jergal, but its a possibility. I do like the idea of the name for Jergal coming from Nergal though, I think I might use that in my Netheril rewrite.



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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  01:53:24  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote


quote:

The name similarities and portfolio similarities between Jergal and Nergal are very close, too close perhaps to be coincidence.

Now either the name/portfolio arose with the Untheric people, or it arose with the Netherese. Thanks to George Krashos article on Jergal we have him placed in both regions.



If we assume that the Untheric Nergal is based on the Sumerian one, this is what we have.

The Real World Nergal was the God of Death, Inflicted Death, and the Dead. But he was never an enemy of mankind, for even though he is described as the undisputed ruler (i.e. tyrant?) of the netherworld, he was also a caretaker of the dead and their existence post-mortem.

This resonates extremely well with Jergal pre-Krashos writeup, but not very well after. Jergal becomes more directly evil and power hungry, than merely as a function of his portfolios.



I think one way of reconciliating the two could be to have Jergal the Batrachi coup d'etat Nergal the Death God sometime during or after the Orcgate wars.

If Nergal was one of the exiled gods of Unther, he would be weakened by his exile and loss of followers. If the seven lost gods were originally servants of Nergal (as the Sumerian version), maybe it was Jergals seizing control of them that originally allowed him to subsume Nergal's portfolios. Then later, when Jergal schemed to have the Dark Three take his divinity, he plotted to have them steal the power of the Seven as part of taking away his own divinity. Also, at this point I should mention that I find it interesting that to defeat Borem, they had to leave the dagger in his Heart, suggesting that when one of the Seven is killed, it doesn't necessarily cease to be.

I'm thinking that the reason for Jergal wanting to divest himself of his divinity could possibly be because the subsumed Nergal's portfolios were playing havoc with his psyche and influencing his actions. This could be the reason he was sick of his duties as Death God, and why he needed to separate that aspect from the rest of his being. (After all, what is the fun in being one of the most powerful of the gods, and Neutral Evil to boot, if you aren't free to use said power as you want.) And what better way than to accomplish this than by letting several champions prove themselves strong enough to each take part of it, and letting them deal with the problems of divinity. Especially if you could find a way to surreptiously siphon off part of the faith power they subsequently gathered, without their knowledge.

Of course it would take centuries if not millenia to gather the power necessary become as powerful as a God again, so one would need a plan for remaining hidden while doing so. Perhaps in plain sight, as a boring office clerk of some sort...


Anyway, just a few slightly inebriated thoughts on a 1st of January...




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perlmugp
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USA
69 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  04:12:41  Show Profile  Visit perlmugp's Homepage Send perlmugp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would guess Camnod the Unseen was just east of Rystall Wood since there is a mountain their named after him.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  08:54:47  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How could I have missed that mountain. Where did you spot it out of interest, what source?

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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  11:41:50  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

How could I have missed that mountain. Where did you spot it out of interest, what source?



It was on the Moonsea map in Monuments of the Ancients.
Lots of interesting stuff in that adventure.

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perlmugp
Seeker

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  12:42:48  Show Profile  Visit perlmugp's Homepage Send perlmugp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, and I'm pretty sure there was a post somewhere where Brian James confirmed it was named after Camnod the Unseen.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  13:12:34  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A source I have neglected to pay much attention to for this project, something I am about to remedy. Here's hoping between the monument of the ancients and all the other netheril sources I can find a line or two about Camnod

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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  15:04:57  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may want to take a look at page 12 of Brian R. James' thread in the Chamber of Sages regarding the Seven Lost Gods.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  15:12:37  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Done and most illuminating and helpful. Got some ideas for why they are lost now, and Camnod was one of the last it would seem

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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  21:27:18  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Damn, I never noticed this before...

quote:

Ferran speaks: 'The city fell long ago to the unblessed creatures imbued with the might of a magical pool. Chief among these were Tyranthraxus, Edranka, and Torath. With their powers they ruled and united all else, driving foward to destroy us all. The Sage Mendor worked hard to gather record of all these things, but they are lost now, his library overrun.'



and...

quote:

and there on blood-soaked fields of Grong-Haap,
Edranka’s goblin armies were swept away by Hargut of the
Gray Pestilence.



It was during this battle that the Dark Three infiltrated Ironfang Keep and defeated Haask, Voice of Hargut. But what was Edranka, an accomplice of Tyrtanthraxus, doing fighting Hargut in the first place?


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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2016 :  09:57:11  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well when I first discovered this info I was working on thar and a few of eds forging the realms articles gave some insights as to the events surrounding the dark three and tyranthraxus.

Looks like tyranthraxus was on a mission to soften up hargut and maram and so allow the dark three to bind or slay them.

That aside tyranthraxus probably had his own agenda, to be free. And his generals were probably there to carve out a kingdom for themselves.

So the war against maram kicked off and barze, horreb and varm united to help bind him once more. A year or so later tyranthraxus conquered barze and horreb. The unclaimed territory once owned by these kingdoms prompted grong harp (ruled by haask) to move north and claim the territory while tyranthraxus and his generals were in the place that would be phlan (probably investigating the pool of radiance or a primordial that lived there).

Now here is where things get hazy. Only edranka moved to raise an army and attack grong harp, and it took him 6 years to do so.

So what happened to tyranthraxus. Either he was called away by the dark three to deal with Camnod. Or the ritual performed by embrurshaille the dragon drained all the land that would be thar and turned it into a wasteland and caused tyranthraxus to become a poddessing spirit and be trapped in the pool of radiance until someone came near.

I don't know which yet but I think I may need to consult Brian and matt James about their plans

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2020 :  10:05:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Randomly recompiling my list of Netheril lore since i found a more efficient and accurate way of searching sources, and because there have been a number of 5e releases and releases from George, Ed, and Eric since i first looked at Netheril.

Two interesting (to me) things i found.

First was that Malkizid was the secret patron of the Trio Nefariou

Second was something i noticed in various sources. First was that the title of Nentyarch was an old Netherese word meaning elder chief (or something like that), and that this word survived in the Unapproachable East (the Netyarch).
Then when looking through GHoTR it says that some guy was crowned Nentyarch in Narfell around -900 DR, which implies a Netherese interference in that region before the Fall of Netheril (which is justification for me having Larloch manipulate Narfell for some time before Netheril's fall as his own little kingdom).

Lots of other new bits of lore found but the above two stand out the most.



Oh and has anyone ever compiled a list of loross words (and possibly Auld Common)?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6624 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2020 :  12:32:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Randomly recompiling my list of Netheril lore since i found a more efficient and accurate way of searching sources, and because there have been a number of 5e releases and releases from George, Ed, and Eric since i first looked at Netheril.

Two interesting (to me) things i found.

First was that Malkizid was the secret patron of the Trio Nefariou

Second was something i noticed in various sources. First was that the title of Nentyarch was an old Netherese word meaning elder chief (or something like that), and that this word survived in the Unapproachable East (the Netyarch).
Then when looking through GHoTR it says that some guy was crowned Nentyarch in Narfell around -900 DR, which implies a Netherese interference in that region before the Fall of Netheril (which is justification for me having Larloch manipulate Narfell for some time before Netheril's fall as his own little kingdom).

Lots of other new bits of lore found but the above two stand out the most.



Oh and has anyone ever compiled a list of loross words (and possibly Auld Common)?



There might be a reason why Larloch's enclave crashed in northern Narfell.

And yes.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2020 :  13:01:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did find another quote long ago that said larloch ruled over his own kingdom, and from that I took it he was manipulating narfell in secret. But the nentyarch clue was the first direct evidence of netherese meddling in narfell (apart from his enclave crashing).

The only problem is the dates. Larloch was born -623 DR, and the first nentyarch was -900 DR.
Could be easily explained if they had their own title before the 600 DR time and it was changed to nentyarch later and the old title forgotten.
Or alternatively larloch may have been apprenticed to an archwizard that owned jiksidur beforehand (don't know if larloch made jiksidur or took it) and was studying narfell.


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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6624 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2020 :  06:58:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I did find another quote long ago that said larloch ruled over his own kingdom, and from that I took it he was manipulating narfell in secret. But the nentyarch clue was the first direct evidence of netherese meddling in narfell (apart from his enclave crashing).

The only problem is the dates. Larloch was born -623 DR, and the first nentyarch was -900 DR.
Could be easily explained if they had their own title before the 600 DR time and it was changed to nentyarch later and the old title forgotten.
Or alternatively larloch may have been apprenticed to an archwizard that owned Jiksidur beforehand (don't know if larloch made jiksidur or took it) and was studying Narfell.



I'm intrigued. Where did you get Larloch's birth date from?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2020 :  08:28:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't really remember. I cant find that date in my notes. I'm guessing I found it on these forums.

Looking on the web I did find a date on the FR wiki, but that appears to have been made up. The generalised date may still hold true according to its source (lords of darkness) but the specific date was probably fanon.

I take it you have a much better date in mind?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6624 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2020 :  09:09:33  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't have any date in mind. Yet. Was just wondering if I'd missed some Larloch lore somewhere.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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cpthero2
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USA
2284 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  19:42:15  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Dallison,

You mentioned your Moonshae rewrite. I was wondering how that is coming along?

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  19:49:21  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's still work in progress and like all things worthwhile it will remain unfinished.

Its spread over my wordpress site and is in a fairly usable state. Still lots to do, I'm waiting on some more of the Baldman Games adventurer league scenarios to be published and for me to finish reading all the novels before I return to it with as much information as I can amass.

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cpthero2
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USA
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Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  20:24:48  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Dallison,

Thanks for the update. I've been keeping an eye and ear out for a bit. Looking forward to it when you're done. I enjoyed reading your work on Netheril!

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  20:32:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Netheril is too big a fish for me to fry I think, and George and Eric will likely be detailing parts of it as they progress Eric's adventure path for the North so once more of that is released I will look again at Netheril.

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cpthero2
Great Reader

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Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  20:50:53  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Dallison,

Well, that kind of work takes a long time indeed. I would imagine it will be something you go back to periodically. That much information, spread out through so many sources just makes it quite difficult to capture it all.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Copycat
Acolyte

6 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2023 :  13:35:23  Show Profile Send Copycat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello there Gary

I recall reading your linked material many years ago now and recently I've begun working on a new Netheril Campaign ones again.
You were kind enough back then to email me your First Age book alongside material from the Nether Age.
I have an inkling feeling that the link in this subjects first post (which no longer works) also had material from later ages, both Silver, Golden and Shadow. Although at this time it might just be my memory giving me too high hopes. But if my memory serves me right, is there any chance you might share a new link to all this old material? While I do understand it was never finished, I really did like what you had.

Thank you again for all your great work
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6346 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2023 :  21:24:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont remember what i did, but i have lots of notes on Netheril etc.

If you send me your email then i will send it all your way.

Most of it is now defunct with more recent publications from the likes of George and Eric

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Copycat
Acolyte

6 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2023 :  00:42:29  Show Profile Send Copycat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers! Will sent you a PM.
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