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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 14:52:25

Thanks for answering, that's an interesting take on Tyche, and yeah it works well with Ed's original ideas.

With Lolth it's a bit complicated. She absorbed so many aspects (the Dark Elf Unseelie Witch known as the 'Spider Queen', Zinzerena, Danifae Yauntyrr many others) that Lolth wanting consistent worship, is to keep herself together, or keeping one of her personalities/aspects from taking over. The 'War of the Spider Queen' shown Lolth has at least 8 main personalities/aspects.

Also thanks you Wooly for clarifying stuff with Hermes, and were it appeared

Edited by - Baltas on 09 Nov 2015 14:57:19

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 15:24:42

Deity subsumption is something I have dreaded trying to tackle, mostly because I prefer my deitys to be metaphysical and take no direct action.
In those instances the deities merge over centuries as more people believe they are the same being.
In lolth's case it looks like she killed a bunch of quasi divine beings (they were very much present on a single plane with one body) and so those beings become part if her until such a time as they are completely absorbed.
I'd have them remain as free willed aspects that are not directly controlled by lolth but their acts promote her portfolio (unless she foolishly killed a being that was not chaotic evil or associated with spiders) so those free roaming aspects and avatars enrich her anyway.
As a trade off lolth has to spend divine energy maintaining a bunch of aspects and avatars that she does not directly control until every being in the pantheon that believes in either of them accepts that the others are actually part of lolth.

I actually used zinzerena as part of the creation of the masked lady and separated her from lolth, but at the time I had intended to do a different take on the war of the spider queen before I ran out of free time

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 20:38:25

Finally decided to go through Faiths and Pantheons and add it to my archive.

The first entry on Azuth has been very enlightening. As magister he studied the magical lore of a dozen fallen empires (the Netheril basin alone had 6 or more fallen/failing empires.

His battle with Savras (said to be from Halruaa I believe) could mean Azuth was a netherese survivor or from one of the survivor states. Halrua and House Orogoth had trading links for many years until the dragons and their kin finally destroyed themselves (I cant remember where I read that bit but its in at least two statements).

The Favoured of Azuth are very interesting, magical constructs of his unconscious mind that are thought to be a cadre of slain wizards resurrected by Azuth (I could easily make both true).

I've read in numerous statements that Netheril dabbled in constructs quite a lot, and the Discovery Era is sorely lacking in interesting developments so constructs might be an interesting plot point for the empire.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 21:59:00

How does Azuth having battled Savras say anything at all about his origin? Lots of mages have battled wizards from Halruaa... And lots of mages have battled wizards from Thay. And in both places, native wizards have battled each other.

I don't have an issue with the idea of Azuth being from Netheril, I just don't think that one battle proves anything at all about his origin -- especially since we don't know why they battled.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 22:51:57

I had always pegged Azuth as the son of Raumark.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 06:24:48

That's so odd, because I was thinking raumark might have been savras, although I was also thinking of azuth as the last of free willed constructs that the netherese destroyed because they couldn't control them (could still be a relative of raumark if his consciousness was transferred into one).
Might make for a nice story of father, son revenge if raumark abandoned azuth and fled to halruaa

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 18:58:01

I have Savras as much older diety that have ties with Haalrua because he led them from Netheril thanks to his visions. Azuth is a netheries wizard of great renown teaching and spreading magic knowledge in Lower Netheril (he was not a Archwizard by his choice not by lack of power). After Mystryl's rebirth new Mystra was looking for ways to secure magic and elevated him to status of demigod as "supervisor to mages". He still focuses on teaching of magic and Magister is actualy his Chosen (he could have had only one due to his low diefic power and later leave it that way for the sake of tradition). Mages did not understood his position and took him as their patron which is still quite close to truth so he did not seen the need to correct them (it also gave him more power for his task). His clash with Savras was just after his elevation to godhood when he did not yet fully understood his position and tried to grab more power. He actualy won and than Mystra stopped them but it had already damaged relations of their folowers for years.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 21:15:16

Everyone seems to get interested in any subject when you mention the gods.

It would seem we are not a million miles away when it comes to Savras, if he is Raumark (who disappeared mysteriously by hurling himself into what seemed to be a powerful sphere of annihilation but I'm pretty sure Ed says he isn't dead in his usual wink, wink style), then he is much older than Halrua because I have Raumark as being one of the first students of ioulaum and therefore he is several thousand years old by the time of Netheril's fall.

Anyway, I've been thinking a bit about the Diaspora Age and I have had some thoughts about the hills of the seven lost gods and how they might help figure out some of the pantheon upheaval going on at the time.

So the seven hills are probably originally left over from whatever ritual the dragons performed around -5000 DR when they tried to take out the King Killer Star.

The Dragon Coast region falls under the sway of Jhaamish nomads for a time that are displaced by the formation of Jhaamdath.

It probably comes under Jhaamdath control a number of times but by -276 DR when the coup happens I wonder if the Dragon Coast isn't devoid of civilisation (westgate was a settlement surrounded by nomads and ruled by a dragon so I can't imagine Jhaamdath coexisting with a power like that).

Then we have the legend of Seven Lost Gods who are seven quasi divine beings that were slain or subjugated by the dark three in their quest for divinity. Maram of the Great Spear, Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud, Tyranthraxus, Haask Voice of Hargut, Hargut the Gray Pestilence, Camnod the Unseen, and one other.

Tyranthraxus, Haask and Hargut were all dealt with in the Moonsea region. Maram was dealt with in the Tortured Lands. I've always thought Borem was dealt with somewhere around the Dragon Coast or the Shining Plains.

One source says that the churches of the Dark Three were exiled from the Vilhon Reach region to the Heartlands around the Fall of Myth Drannor so it looks like the Dark Three were active in that region.

So perhaps Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul used these 7 hillocks as shrines/nodes of power in some sort of ritual to enhance their power and make them semi divine (before then heading to the outer planes and confronting Jergal.

Then by 927 DR we have the Templeban Edict and a number of shrines are erected to what looks like lost faiths from the netherese and jhaam pantheons in the same hillocks.

So that pinpoints a number of faiths that survived the fall of the empires of netheril and jhaamdath but gradually dwindled to nothing. The erection of the shrines was probably more of a statement of defiance against the ruler of westgate than a statement of religious fervour.

So back to the first lot of lost gods. Could they have been summoned or involved the empire of netheril in some way. Maram was summoned. I reckon Tyranthraxus was the fourth member of the trio nefarious (from a post by ed). Borem could well have been created by a few magic items dumped in a lake or from a crashed enclave. And Camnod im not sure but he sounds a bit gnomish/svirfneblinish.

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 11:30:57

Hills of the seven lost gods... another mystery that is not solved yet :-)
In my take it was originaly prison for those primordial beings (Borem, ...) who were imprisoned there by dragons to power their ritual that should have destroyed dracorage mythal (or King Killer Star itself). Ritual took place during last days of Reign of Dragons (-25 000DR) and was a failure, freeing captive primordials. They made some troubles there and then left to different parts of the world. Later dragons that settlet there tried to find out what went wrong in the ritual and possibly try again. Last of them was topaz dragon Kisonraathisar, ruler of Westgate. He first let Dark Three deal with Borem South of his domain (probably Lake of Long Arm or Wet river) and later netheries necromancer Saldrinar defeat him (-349DR). I believe it was actualy Myrkul himself or his apprentice who took over and started to research those hills. They then found out about other primordials to pave their ascend to godhood and left North for Haask and Hargut. Westgate than clearly descent in power under repeated attacks from dragons and is taken over by Orlak, the vampire king (-286DR, who was created in -343DR) and later to Chondathan settlers led by paladins of Lathander (-137DR). Those settlers than build shrines on seven hills without understanding their former purpose at all.

BTW based on this theory I have Myrkul to be netheries necromancer (fyi Bhaal is tiefling spawn of Baalzebub from Calimshan and Bane "Vorbix" is gray orc warlord from Thar/Vastar).

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 12:07:40

Myrkul is noted as being a prince of Murghom in the published lore and Bane is from "another world" (plane). In my Realms, Bhaal is Netherese.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 22:24:40

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Myrkul is noted as being a prince of Murghom in the published lore and Bane is from "another world" (plane). In my Realms, Bhaal is Netherese.

-- George Krashos

I know but it doesn't fit in my opinion and I have used Murghom as home of Velsharoon who is mentioned as Red Wizard (also I have moved his ascension to time of Thayd (-1000DR) to make more time for his transition to Mystra. Talos was helping this rebellion through mortal Velsharoon as destruction in Mulhorand was in his domain and interest). I am trying to stay true to orginal realms but at times I edit cannonic information due to conflict with my view of Realms themselves. It is understandable that in such number of writers there has to be confusing or outright conflicting "facts" and thou I respect your work as well as others I place Realms first .-)

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 00:16:29

More power to you. Change the Realms to suit your own views. As a fan you have every right.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 12:52:21

I think I might just share what I have for now so people can have a look and share their thoughts and ideas to improve it. I've tried to include just about every statement ever made about netheril, which is a bit difficult for conflicting statements but thankfully time alters everything and netheril existed for thousands of years.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 15:44:12

Here's the link.

Its all very rough at the moment but its a huge project and I think I might be losing track of all the threads that have been weaved into it, that and I'm running out of time and energy to finish the project but I'm too far on to abandon it.
I tend to get everything down on "paper" first then edit bits out to make it more unreliable narrator like, so all the answers are still in there that I tend to remove but keep written down for me so I know what I was thinking at the time.

Feel free to peruse at your leisure and call me out on any glaring mistakes or suggest some things. I'm trying to turn it into a full fledged campaign setting in its own right (like the Netheril Boxed set should have been), but I need to figure out all the various events and threads from that and then get stuck into the geography and organisations and people etc.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 15:48:41

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I know but it doesn't fit in my opinion and I have used Murghom as home of Velsharoon who is mentioned as Red Wizard (also I have moved his ascension to time of Thayd (-1000DR) to make more time for his transition to Mystra. Talos was helping this rebellion through mortal Velsharoon as destruction in Mulhorand was in his domain and interest). I am trying to stay true to orginal realms but at times I edit cannonic information due to conflict with my view of Realms themselves. It is understandable that in such number of writers there has to be confusing or outright conflicting "facts" and thou I respect your work as well as others I place Realms first .-)

Well, seeing how the mortal Myrkul is stated to be the true creator of the Crown of Horns(created before -2267 DR), I had Myrkul of Imaskari origin(remember, Murghom was part of Imaskar, so it has sense it's royal family was Imaskari in origin), or Prince Murghom having recovered a lot of their Imaskari lore and spells.

If Myrkul was Imaskari, it would also ad another ironic layer to the creation of the Wall of the Faithless.

Indeed, Myrkul himself could be hidden mentor to Velsharoon, even if Velsharoon was around the time of Thayd, seeing how Myrkul aparently was active allready a millenium before Thayd.

Also, Myrkul being the Crown Prince of Murghom, makes him similar to Nagash from Warhammer. In turn, Nagash recently, in the End Times and Age of Sigmar, became the God of Dead like Myrkul. Those increased similarities between two awesome Necromancers Nagash and Myrkul are, are very interesting.

Edited by - Baltas on 15 Nov 2015 15:53:49

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 15:55:26

One thing to remember about creation, it's subjective just like everything else.
If something gets destroyed and someone uses bits from it to make something different from the original then is that not creation.
The crown of impiltur has been created several times in different guises (the moaning crown of ndulu being one).
If the crown of horns was destroyed then myrkul can be one of several creators, it also means the time of its creation can be much later than you might think

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 18:05:28

Hmmm, you're right here, but I think it makes a great irony, If Myrkul, the creator of the Wall of the Faithless, was one of the godless Imaskari. Also, the type of existence the Crown of Horns gave Myrkul, also resembled the state of lich-hood in which Ambuchar/Tan Chin was, and Tan Chin aparently at least in part derived his current state, from researching and finding Imaskari magic.

Although one could explain it that Myrkul just also like Tan Chin/Ambuchar, reverse enginered Imaskari magics.

But I think it would be interesting and ironic if Myrkul was an Imaskari himself.

Edited by - Baltas on 16 Nov 2015 18:38:16

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 18:38:16

Well murghom was part of mulhorand which liberated themselves from imaskar and inherited a lot of their knowledge, so myrkul probably did use imaskari magic in its creation.
I stuck to the original story in the netheril boxed set which wasn't all bad. Myrkul gets his chance to recreate it after that.
Of course myrkuls crown had a completely different function to the original

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2015 : 20:21:21

Mind has been swimming with netheril stuff today.

Can someone help me. I vaguely recall a unique version of the grey render being associated with dark hold I think. Can someone point me to its source.

After reading malars entry in faiths and pantheons I remember mention of one of his names being rendar. Then I got to thinking how and why he was associated with the knuckle bones story and how I can make it into something less literal and more credible without changing it too much.

So we know bane Bhaal and myrkul were collecting powerful beings, and thanks to George's jergal article I'm guessing they were manipulated by jergal into doing so to help his code of reversion. For me that tooth of jergal artefact Bhaal had allowed jergal to subtly direct Tharlagaunt bale and I'm going to mix things up and make him the leader of the three (assassin and super powerful arcanist makes him smart and deadly).

We also know at some point the dark three head to the lower planes after netherils fall and then bane appears in the vilhon reach region and tries to conquer it (mentioned in that really bad battle system adventure I can't remember the name of).

So got me Jergals ritual fails and he goes nuts as he is now a million partite being like a super Sharn. Some small sliver of individuality remains in the tooth of jergal and tear of ascore and continues to influence the dark three. They are off trying to be gods and still can't ascend even after offing 7 lost super beings. So Jergals sane part in the dagger convinces them to go to the lower planes and try to kill him.

The only direct link to fugue is in ascore so they brave it's evils and jump through the portal and stab jergal with his own dagger. It doesn't kill jergal but it does separate him from his divinity and the merged sentience that is stuck in ascore. Jergal becomes the immortal and non divine spell weave he once was and bane Bhaal and myrkul become Demi gods (because they have no worshippers yet) they then go to the vilhon reach and establish cults and cause a whole mess of trouble.

Now I'm going to link malar by having rendar be one of the seven lost gods in service to the dark three and he gets killed by the stalker around the time the dark three return to ascore. He learns some of their plan and tries to get in on the action believing if he kills the netherese Sharn he gets Jergals power. Instead the dark three head through a portal and leave the stalker to face the netherese Sharn on their own.

I can also involve nakasr a bit as a lesser servant of one of the seven lost gods and tie it up with the trio nefarious.

So the seven lost gods were meant to be used for the code of reversion but the dark three end up using/abusing the to help them ascend by assaulting the most evil and dangerous remnant of netheril (ascore) in a bid to kill jergal.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 : 03:58:05

The render was originally a unique critter; a magical experiment gone awry. It was detailed in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep, IIRC. Later on, someone decided that where one thing was good, many were better -- and so it lost its unique status.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 : 17:31:42

Since this is just a tidbit of Netheril lore i'll post it here instead of dedicating a whole thread to it:

I was surprised to find inside the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set a reference to the Targatan priest Ounadar the Blood-Drenched, why? Because Ounadar the Blood-Drenched is the name of the Gargathan priest leader of the largest and most prominent center of the faith in the 2E era, the Vale of the Reaver in Yondath (as per Power and Pantheons)!

Since i don't like simple coincidences i would like your input on how to get a Targatan priest of Netheril to the Lake of Steam of the late 1300s. I can see two ways for this to work out:
1 - The modern Ounadar and the netherese Ounadar are one and the same, he survived the Fall of Netheril and wandered far and wide keeping the faith in Targus/Garagos barely alive, he is more than a thousand years old thanks to some artifact of the faith (it can be a weapon or a suit of armor) that drains lifeforce from living creatures (slain or grappled) extending the lifespan of the user/wearer* or maybe thanks to unholy rituals that involve the sacrifice of living beings (that might explain the degeneration of Targus into Garagos, he lost his godly powers and went desperate for survival thus turning to evil acts to sustain his faith and the foremost of his sparse worshippers);
2 - The modern Ounadar is a descendant and heir of the netherese Ounadar through a long line of wandering fighting-priests of Targus/Garagos that traveled far south of fallen Netheril briefly touching other centers of Gargathan worship (Westgate, the Vilhon's Reach, the Barony of the Great Oak**).

In both cases, i would like the Targatans to be survivors of Quagmire/Akintaer because it's known there were survivors of this militaristic enclave and they were the best and brightest of Netheril's warfare, in a situation of crisis with restricted/no access to magic (just after the Fall) they were the ones with the best fighting chances of surviving anything. For reference, they had best k/d ratios than almighty Iolaum: from the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set we know that Ioulaum led a campaign against orcs with "thousands of Netherese spellcasters and warriors" against "the largest concentration of orcs in Netheril's land at the time" in and around -3145 DR and in two recorded confrontations he lost 8000 men to 10000 orcs and then 32000 men to 140000 orcs; the Targatans went in more than 20000 to fight an orc horde, lost 11000 men and killed more than 150000 orcs.

* For some kind of item with similar properties look at the armor of the Olembarlar of Tulmon in Empires of the Shining Sea;

** We know from lots of small bits of lore that the Netherese diaspora produced short-lived kingdoms in the Border Kingdoms area, even Torm's original land maybe among these lost countries, furthermore the apparitions at Godswalk Keep (Sharess, Garagos and Jergal together) don't make much sense unless taking in consideration the fact that both Jergal and Targus were said to be smitten by Shar and the fact that Shar had a chance to subdue Bast/Sharess after Netheril's fall.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 : 20:22:49

Well its a brilliant spot. Whoever wrote the Netheril boxed set has a lot to answer for.

But this unnoticed link could prove fortuitous.

So here's what we know that I'm choosing to use to back up my thoughts

1 - We know Garagos and Targus have been confused throughout Faerun's history because of their similarities in dogma and appearance (both are depicted as large multi armed beings and both are war gods, and both were possibly killed by Tempus)

2 - Garagos is stated as having killed by Tempus.

3 - The worship of Garagos all but disappeared in the Westgate area by 900 DR (he became one of the shrines to the lost gods around westgate during the templeban).

4 - Garagos' worship suddenly reappeared in 1368 DR when some manifestation of him suddenly reappeared and slew a marilith that was posing as him in the Vilhon Reach.

So if I were to make any link between the two it would be that Ounadar the Blood Drenched is one and the same as the Netherese priest. That he was a general commanding the armies of Netheril and during The Fall of -339 DR he led the fight against the hordes of monsters that were pouring out of the desert each year and heading towards Seventon. He was struck by magic at the point Karsus cast his Avatar spell and he winked out of existence.

He reappears suddenly in the 1300s (some kind of temporal teleport) and begins reforming the worship of Targus, which the locals take to be Garagos. So Ounadar uses the name Garagos as that what the locals understand.

He probably does have more than a few powerful artefacts of the faith (-339 was make or break time for Netheril after all) and so has more than enough about him to become a new messiah of a resurgent faith. He kills the marilith (either through summoning or transformation) and hey presto Targus/Garagos is reborn.

As for the Akintaer Targus thing. I broke the link between Akintaer and Netheril and so cannot use it, but if you are sticking to canon then Akintaer is a logical choice.

For me after extensive reading, it seemed that the enclaves were not part of the nation of Netheril but existed above and outside it. Each enclave had its own ruler, its own laws, its own citizenry and so cannot operate as part of another nation without swearing fealty to it, and arrogant wizard kings seemed unlikely to do that. Furthermore it would be foolishly for a nation to put the bulk of its armed forces on an independent enclave or even in a vassalised enclave (it would make the vassal too powerful) so Akintaer could not be the centre of Targus' worship and the armed forces of Netheril.

Plus the association with Akintaer and the nearby marsh and the rumours of its archwizard being a lizardman seemed significant. Thus for me Akintaer is actually an enemy of Netheril that appears in the Shadowed Age to attack it, but also spends just as much time attacking the phaerim thralls and so historians have confused it as part of Netheril.

Instead I had Ioulaum create 9 flying forts called The Sigils which he gave to Netheril and that acted as mobile bases of Netheril's armed forces. They became important centres of Targus' worship although its main temple was located in Seventon itself (as was most important buildings). Of course a number of Sigils get destroyed which is why its called the Seven Sigils war because only 7 remained to take part.

So for me Ounadar the Blood Drenched would have been based in Seventon (the southern most settlement is where I have the most military forces based), he may even have been of majority Low Netherese blood (an unusual thing for authority figures in Seventon) and acquired his position because everyone else died or didn't want the job leading the armed forces into battle. A stray spell from a phaerimm shunted him out of time and space and he probably gets brought back with the Time of Troubles

That's just my thoughts on it. I tried to use the existing canon to recreate Netheril in Ed's original image in which there were lots of enclaves but only a few flying cities (I have Xinlenal, Anauria, Asram, Hlondath, Eileanur, and Jiksidur as the only city sized enclaves of a thousand or more people), the rest were just single towers or other types of enclave housing a few hundred people at the max. They did not influence or run the land bound nation of Nehteril in any way until the Shadowed Age when Netheril's government began to fall apart under the strain of pressures arrayed against it (of which there were many).

Hope I helped in some way. I try not to stick to the Netheril boxed set as being literal or set in stone because the quality in places is questionable and it looks like they just picked places to fit fantasy tropes to try and make things interesting.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 21:48:47

Reading the blurb about Godswalk Keep reminded me of a theory that I had regarding this place way back when I was looking at the Old Empires.

Unfortunately I can't for the life of me remember what that theory was but I was certain the idea that Jergal, Garagos, and Sharess interacted in some way at this spot had to be a mistake.

Thanks to George's article about Jergal; Lord of the End of Everything, I wonder if Godswalk Keep is not the place where Jergal slept in stasis after fleeing Isstosseffifil and headed south towards the lands of the Sarrukh.
His prolonged presence in this place where he probably reached out using his mind while his body remained in stasis left some kind of ghostly memory of himself behind.

That is why Jergal wanders around the keep ignoring the other two because he is just a ghostly memory of Jergal and cannot interact with or even perceive anything.

Garagos' presence is possibly down to the appearance of Ounadar the Blood Drenched in the area and he masqueraded as Garagos for a number of years. In fact he could have been trapped he in his temporal displacement and temporarily manifested whenever battle occurred nearby. Finally released by the ToT or a suitably large battle

Sharess is the one I'm not sure about. However given Bast's many alias', perhaps an elven/fey being of great power was battled by Bast during her prolonged wandering.

It just so happens that all three events happened here on the site of the keep. Probably some massive underground complex filled with magic

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 23:03:03

I like it when "hidden in plain sight" stuff finally comes to light.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 23:04:34

Oh, and for what it's worth, I had Godswalk Keep pegged as the site of a Celestial Stair.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2015 : 09:13:26

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I like it when "hidden in plain sight" stuff finally comes to light.

-- George Krashos

And I love it when people validate one of my crackpot theories.

I'm not quite sure what a celestial stair really is (I've read the adventure so I know what it is but not how and why it is).

I'm wondering if the stairs aren't formed when the wall between the material and the outer planes becomes thin. I think it's the ethereal plane that fills in the gaps between the outer planes and the material plane (might be the astral though) so perhaps it's the wall between that one or perhaps it's when the material plane becomes linked to several outer planes in one place.

The lillend then craft this stairwell (but that's probably just how the human mind interprets it) to live on (they must get something from the minds of those that pass through it).

The stairwell must have another branch in anauroch where jergal first fled the phaerimm and sarrukh around -30000 dr. It's probably around the columns of the sky mountains.

The phaerimm are extra dimensional beings and I reckon like the Sharn they live in their own pocket plane. Jergal probably teleported away near the spire of the phaerimm (which exists only in the pocket plane like a giant termite mound until 5e when it is dumped in anauroch) and ripped a hole between the planes which also affected his destination on the site of gods walk keep in an abandoned outpost of okoth (and the baetith).

The likeness of sharess could actually be a wild elf like baelnorn from syorpiir or eilleur (or the third realm I can't remember) that is more ethereal like a ghost. She was placed here to guard the ruins by the elves.

Garagos can still be ounadar the blood drenched and his freak teleport through time and space coupled with the death of mystryl caused gods walk keep to become the site of some kind of planar nexus that is then made a celestial stair.

Of course I could be completely wrong, it might always have been a celestial stair.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2015 : 09:16:35

Anyone with any skills in map making (no matter how small) fancy working with me to produce a few versions of maps for a remake of netheril?

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 21:32:59

Just had a random thought about staging the splitting of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba.

As always I'm steering well clear of deific soap opera so no rose, no corruption, no blast from Selune.

According to Faiths and Pantheons Tyche dallies with Lathander and then goes off a wandering, getting infected by Moander's corruption. Upon her return the assembled of Selune, Lathander, and Azuth meet her. Selune blasts her and she splits in two.

So translating that into followers and religions.

We have a number of factions within the church of Tyche. The major strong ones are a mildly beneficial but fickle version of Tyche that makes its wealth and influence through attaching itself to gambling dens and other interests that involve chance. The opposite is a faction of the church that makes its money by blackmailing people and cursing those that don't pay with bad luck (a faction infiltrated by Sharrans).

Tyche's church is popular in Low Netheril and even becomes popular in Seventon because it helps the rich to make more money).

With Netheril's fall the Low Netherese carry it into the Tunlands region which is where a number of city states spring up in the immediate aftermath of Netheril's fall.

The corruption of Moander is actually the arrival of Kippit Yutto, the child of one of the candidates of Jergal's Code of Reversion (Alithar Chonis, who sold his divinity to Moander in return for mortality but became enslaved to him). Kippit had survived machinations in Asram and ends up married to the adoptive child of Elah Nydra. She also becomes a figurehead for the church of Tyche (because of her past and having survived and even thrived).

Manipulations involving Gorothir the prophet of Shar (using a secret and a lie) result in Kippit siding with the evil faction of Tyche's church (and Shar's worshippers) and she and Nydrax help convince Elah that she (Elah) is going mad again.

The result is the collapse of the eight throned realm when Elah leaves and also the church of Tyche which splits itself apart in internal struggles. The followers of Selune side with the good faction and the result is the bad guys are driven south (ending up in the Lands of Intrigue region I think).

The church of Tyche reforms later at a time when halflings are making headway into the region. The name Tyche merges with the name of a Halfling god (Alimourra - or something morra) to become Tymora.

It kind of follows the events of the legend but involves the church rather than the gods. The events occur starting -339 (when Alithar Chonis heads to Cormyr and crosses Moander's Footstep) and end around 446 dr when Gorothir is finally slain and at this point Tyche's church splits in two or has already split in two

Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2015 : 12:53:52

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Then we have the legend of Seven Lost Gods who are seven quasi divine beings that were slain or subjugated by the dark three in their quest for divinity. Maram of the Great Spear, Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud, Tyranthraxus, Haask Voice of Hargut, Hargut the Gray Pestilence, Camnod the Unseen, and one other.

Tyranthraxus, Haask and Hargut were all dealt with in the Moonsea region. Maram was dealt with in the Tortured Lands. I've always thought Borem was dealt with somewhere around the Dragon Coast or the Shining Plains.

The Dark Three killed Borem (somewhere near present day Cormyr IIRC). It is mentioned in Grand History of the Realms. Unfortunately, I no longer have the book, but I recall something about them sticking an artifact dagger in his heart to stench the perpetual flow of mud.

Two more comments.
I don't think Haask, Voice of Hargut, is actually one of the Seven. More likely someone who learned how to harvest the power of a Primordial, much like the three probably did in order to take their first steps towards divinity.

Nergal, from Sumerian mythology, is sometimes described as being served by seven gods (the Ilu Sebettu), who are his agents of death and destruction. Not sure if Ed took inspiration from there, and if so, how much is canon.

/0.02$

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2015 : 14:58:22

I have been leaning towards classing haask and hargut as one primordial (because now they are bound together) and as you say, haask is not a unique being. He is an elder batrachi and probably possessed of quite awesome power, but he is just one of several survivors of the batrachi race. Then again a few of those survivors have reached primordial status (isn't one a slaad lord).

As for Borem I will have to disagree. The text in ghotr definitely described a region on the south shore of the dragon coast. Furthermore the text is written on the scale of a topaz dragon and it sounds like it was written by the dragon king of west gate (whose name I shall not attempt to write without my sources to hand).

At the time of the event cormyr was ruled by thauglor and there is no way those two dragon lords would have entered or claimed one another's territory without an immense dragon war.

The location being placed in cormyr is because in faiths and pantheons they place borems heart and the jathiman dagger on an island off cormyr and then it goes on to say that scholars believe that region was part of jhaamdath etc etc. thankfully it is only scholars believe and scholars can be wrong (and they most definitely were in this instance).

Borem I'm certain was killed where I described, the geography fits as do the descriptions of jhaam nomads and the meeting of netherese refugees. How the dagger and his heart ended up on that island I don't know but I suspect it was abandoned by the dark three after it was no longer useful (after -339 dr).

Of course that now leaves two unidentified lost gods to detail and still no idea of who Camnod the unseen might be, just that he lived in the lands around netheril.

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