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Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 14:17:06
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http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13522389#post13522389
Reading post 4 made me lose hope for everything d20.
If this is WotC's mindset, there won't be a 4e FR to *roleplay* in; there will be a FR to have combat encounters in.
I must ask you, who think that there are too much mechanics, and too little... content in the 3e supplements:
What is roleplaying to you?
I've grown up with roleplaying, and the only time I've encountered this kind of thinking, is when playing wargames. Warhammer Fantasy/40k, LotR Stategy, Necromunda, Mordheim, and the like, where rules are used to judicate the outcome between two player opponents. Of course D&D Miniatures has more detailed fights, but it still shouldn't revolve around combat.
I'm going to translate one of my early journals from FR to illustrate my point. Not right now, but I'll post it in a few hours.
A curious note game balance there: that group had a Drow monk (Amnesiac with a rather... uncomfortable past. ECL3), a Curst (A previously powerful wizard, in search for his soul, ECL6 (plus the skills of a wiz23)), a kobold "dragon slayer" (ECL2), a Minotaur (castout, since he during a raid refused to slay the kobold. ECL9).
We had a great amount of fun with that mini-campaign. I'll post the journal, in a few hours.
Come to think about it, the way Thomasson talks about the windwalk spell, is almost as a ruling tyrant, oppressing the past as if it could weaken his position. (Much like Tengil in the Brothers Lionheart, or the Fire Nation in Avatar: the Last Airbender).
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 14:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Aewrik
What is roleplaying to you?
That's a hard question to answer. I don't think I'm capable of describing how I feel about RP, but I do think that the Role-Playing Game Manifesto provided by Guardians of Order does a good job of defining its context:
These rules are written on paper, not etched in stone tablets.
Rules are suggested guidelines, not required edicts.
If the rules don't say you can't do something, you can.
There are no official answers, only official opinions.
When dice conflict with the story, the story always wins.
Min/Maxing and munchkinism aren't problems with the game; they're problems with the player.
The Game Master has full dicretionary power over the game.
The Game Master always works with, not against, the players.
A game that is not fun is no longer a game - it's a chore.
This book contains the answers to all things.
When the above does not apply, make it up.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 16:26:39
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Everything starts in a small village called Thistledale, located just beyond the southern end of Ardeep forest, a day's march from Waterdeep. The village is mostly compromised of outcasts, having gathered under the protecting sorcerer Erbos Kark, a calm, but caring human in the service of Baervan Wildwanderer. After having prevented a mob from stoning a tiefling, word spread, and eventually, even a stone giant settled and built the church that was to become the village's pride.
Please note, that this is a log, so don't treat it as a novel. It's not written to be read as one.
Earlier events (this is from an adventure I played with another group): The church of Baervan Wildwanderer has but burned to the ground after a gnoll raid. Luckily, a passing group of adventurers were able to prevent the fire from spreading into the village, but the head priest was abducted, and the churchwarden seriously injured.
The same adventurers managed to find the gnolls' encampment, and bring back an, unfortunately, dead high priest. They also learned, from capturing a scroll the gnoll leader was carrying, that the gnolls' actions had a purpose. After bringing the scroll to Erbos, the adventuring group continued to Waterdeep, bringing a relic Erbos had received from the church of Mielikki, which would hopefully convince the church to bring Hergol back to life.
Meanwhile, the village's guardian (and indeed, the reason there was a village there, at all), Erbos, using powerful scrying upon the scroll, found that the letter had originated from the underdark, and a dark-robed figure without face or breath. Sending out his trusted ranger, Ime, to locate the entrance from where the letter had been brought to the surface, he himself started looking for appropriate candidates to neutralize this undead threat.
Session 1:
In disguise, the wizard Nezerai and the drow Aesir arrived at their destination. Having heard about the village from a merchant in Murann, who praised the village jeweller's skill, they set course for the village, in hopes of finding a sanctuary and base of operations.
Upon arrival, they presented themselves before the village's mayor, Erbos. Presenting them with the troubles of the village, Erbos put it upon the travelers to follow Ime, the village ranger, and travel into the Underdark to take care of a powerful spellcaster. An enchantment had been placed upon the village, keeping any villager from entering the Ardeep forest. Not even Erbos, the most powerful sorcerer in the village could break the enchantment, and had not Ime been outside the boundary of the enchantment when it was cast, the entrance shaft into the underdark would never had been found.
Being told to find two other newly arrived, they barely take a step outside the tower when they notice something remarkable. In the flower bed surrounding the tower, a kobold is kneeling, digging frantically. Farther away, a minotaur is snoring soundly, leaning its back against a large tree.
They greet the kobold, and asks it why it is digging in the sorcerer's flowers. They receive the answer, that "since wizards usually hide their treasures in flower pots, sorcerers probably hide them in flower beds." And being blessed by some sort of luck, moments later, the kobold finds a blue quarts.
The wizard and the drow walks over to the village's makeshift tavern, but are told that it is open only during holy days, when gnome pilgrims from around the countryside make their way to the church, or the druid Elser's glen. They are invited to eat with Gelegos the dwarf, as he is having a formal party in honor of his god, Marthammor Duin, before starting his journey south, to Iltkazar, where he will attend the Shieldmeet in his god's temple.
At dusk, they left the party, where even the undead wizard seemed welcome, and walked over to the tree where the minotaur was sleeping. Having prepared themselves, the minotaur and the kobold now stood in full armaments. Introducing themselves as Himayatul the kobold, Hortensius the minotaur, Aesir the monk and Nezerai the wizard, and confirming that they indeed were to travel together, they knocked on the door to the sorcerer's tower, and were let in by a very solid female figure, with eyes as black pits and skin rough as rock. Erbos introduced Ime the earth genasi to them, and gave them the equipment he thought necessary. The minotaur loaded most of the equipment, and thanked Erbos for his generosity, before following Ime and the others outside.
After having followed Ime for many hours through the forest, it was now night. The farther into the forest they went, the more quiet Ime became, and encouraged the others not to draw too much attention to themselves. Well into the night, they finally reached the entrance to the Underdark. Even though the shaft had been dug out of an impressive cliff, the trees surrounding and the undergrowth covering the bare rock, made the cliff invisible from a distance.
[here starts the dungeoncrawling]
Being equipped with only 90 yards of rope, the minotaur lowers Aesir and Himayatul to a ledge farther down the shaft, before proceeding to descend into the shaft himself. When Hortensius reaches the ledge, the wizard unties the rope, and the minotaur lowers the drow and kobold some 60 yards before they reach what seems to be the bottom of this shaft. As the minotaur turns around start climbing down the shaft himself, the wall before him crumbles, and a massive umber hulk steps forward, grappling him and putting its mandibles around the minotaur's neck.
The minotaur grabs his axe, and slashes it into the umber hulk's shoulder, but breaks the handle as he tries to pull it out of the hulk. The following second, the wizards floats past, who throws a feather fall spell on the minotaur, while telling the it to jump. The minotaur throws itself off the ledge, and takes the umber hulk with it.
While falling, the minotaur tries to rotate, to get the umber hulk beneath him, but awkwardly twists his neck, allowing the umber hulk's mandibles to fully lock around the minotaur's neck.
Once the combatants reach the bottom of the shaft, the umber hulk becomes aware of the other adventurers, and sends out waves of confusing sounds, leaving the minotaur panicked, trying desperately to escape from the umberhulks grip. The wizard and the drow manage to compose themselves, but something turns loose in the kobold's head, and it spins around, thrusting its rapier through the gut of the drow. The drow, unable to stand the pain, falls to the ground moaning.
The battle turns from bad to worse, until Nezerai conjures a massive ogre zombie from the negative plane, which starts pounding on the umberhulk still trying to bite the minotaur's head off. The umber hulk is fighting evenly with the undead ogre, and while the two are locked in close combat, the kobold's senses clear, and it immediately sees its opportunity. Taking a massive leap upon the umber hulk's back, and thrusting the rapier between two of the hulk's interlocking plates, the umber hulk falls to the ground, twitching slightly.
But the triumph shortly dies, when another umber hulk crashes through the wall a few yards away. Helping the minotaur to its feet, the party runs from the umberhulk. After running for a while, realizing they cannot get away from the umber hulk, they stop to confront it. However, once the umber hulk comes into view, a giant shadow leaps out of the darkness, grabbing the umberhulk, and dragging it back into the darkness from whence it came. A deathly silence falls, and the party stumbles on, until they reach a dimly lit cave, with various fungi growing on the ground and walls. They stop to recover.
A month of recovery follows, greatly improved by the kobold's knowledge of various herbs it found in the many passages surrounding the cave they were residing in.
The party continues on their quest, even though they should be considered dead since long ago. After all, where else can they find sanctuary, than in Thistledale?
The kobold, having scouted the surroundings, led the party to a larger cave, where signs of movement were evident. Even though they tried being cautious, danger awaited them at ever turn. The threats were dealt with quickly, mostly by the wizard's fireballs. With the stream running through one of the larger caves in the complex, they did not fear the effects of fire, and before long, the complex had been cleared.
However, the minotaur had been badly poisoned, and while waiting for Hortensius to recover, the wizard studied the only obviously magic object in the complex: a massive stone door, covered with ancient draconic runes, glowing softly in the otherwise quite dark cave.
About the same time as Hortensius stops having fever dreams, Nezerai presents and casts the spell to unravel the door's most ancient magic. As the final word of the scroll is worked into the weave, and the magic is transferred onto the draconic runes, the door turns to dust, and for the first time in many centuries, light is cast into the forgotten room beyond the caves...
End of session one.
This is a recollection of the major events. There were (of course) alot of other things going on, and much interaction between the PCs, which I don't include here. The monk mainly played in the intra-PC area (since that's what his player enjoys), while the wizard and the minotaur got to do what they liked. And the kobold 
As you can see, there were alot of things in that text not supported by the rules. Hopefully, WotC can't sue me for straying too far from the rules.  |
Edited by - Aewrik on 25 Sep 2007 16:38:14 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 16:51:33
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The whole marketing tactic of "all the previous editions suck in their own way, but 4e is really cool" really annoys me. Please, can you quit telling us how bad the game is? Up until GenCon you were 100% supportive of 3E and now it sucks? Get real. Focus on telling us what 4E has to offer rather than the deficiencies of earlier editions. Personally, I know how great 3E is and how it works perfectly for my group.
Let me also add that if this statement is for real:
"Chris doesn't immediately tell us to roll for initiative. That's a sign, right? We're gonna get a chance to negotiate with it, get the information we need to get to this city, and then kill the dracolich and get its phat lewtz."
...and not a joke, and this is one of the designers? 4E, count me out.
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War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 17:06:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
These rules are written on paper, not etched in stone tablets.
Rules are suggested guidelines, not required edicts.
If the rules don't say you can't do something, you can.
There are no official answers, only official opinions.
When dice conflict with the story, the story always wins.
Min/Maxing and munchkinism aren't problems with the game; they're problems with the player.
The Game Master has full dicretionary power over the game.
The Game Master always works with, not against, the players.
A game that is not fun is no longer a game - it's a chore.
This book contains the answers to all things.
When the above does not apply, make it up.
IMHO, that is complete BS.
The Forge (www.indie-rpgs.com) articles will give you a lot of better answers about what is a RPG. |
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Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 18:10:28
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Oh, and if you wonder why I detailed the fight with the Umber Hulk, try finding rules that explain everything that happened.
There are rules in all games, from tabletop to computer games, LARP to PnP.
To me, roleplaying is when the characters accomplish something, by interaction with the world the DM sets up.
Roleplaying is not slaying the dragon. Roleplaying is why you slay the dragon, and how, and preventing the consequences.
I think that's as short a description I can make, to those who know something about roleplaying. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 18:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
The whole marketing tactic of "all the previous editions suck in their own way, but 4e is really cool" really annoys me. Please, can you quit telling us how bad the game is? Up until GenCon you were 100% supportive of 3E and now it sucks? Get real. Focus on telling us what 4E has to offer rather than the deficiencies of earlier editions. Personally, I know how great 3E is and how it works perfectly for my group.
That sums it all up.
Canabalizing ones past to prop up "the future" is a sign of fear on WOTC's part.
But it brings to mind an image of evil turning against itself.
I would say this latest approach is akin to a snake (WOTC) eating its own tail (vers 3.0-3.5) |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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sirreus
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 18:50:42
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i like to try and balance both mechanics and rp'ing. as for what it means to me: concepts and stories and how they interact with the real(mechanical) world of toril. i'm about to start a new campaigne(as a player) and am working on my pc's history. most of my histories are 5-15 pages. this includes my parents (personality, region of origin, diety, etc.), my childhood (education, regional, economics, ect.), and leading up to the 1st day of the campaigne. now when this is complete i not only have a grand concept, but i have a solid background to base my motivations on, that adhere to the pc's thought process. whether its a dragon or a hafling shopowner, i have a solid understanding of how my character should act (i still might slay the dragon or the shopkeeper for that matter)rp'ing is just that, playing a chosen role; and as long as that role is consistant to the dm's story it doesn't matter. i role play just as much in initiative as in a inn with no combat. |
"The measure of an undisciplined mind, is that the intellect allows emotion to challenge the observed truth" Richard Baker |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 22:40:44
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I think that role-playing is exactly that - creating a role and then playing it to the best of your ability. It is not about being yourself or making the character like you, it is about becoming someone else, even if it is just the you that you wish you could be. If I am just going to be me, then I might as well stay home.
I have to say that for me roleplaying depends in part on the DM. I have had DM's before who had us create characters and give them complete histories (5-10 pages worth) only to have most of us die the first night. It sucks to pour your heart into someone then have them knocked off before you even get to know them. For me I have to know the DM well now before I devote any time to creating/ becoming a character.
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Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 04:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
IMHO, that is complete BS.
Skeptic, my experiences with you have taught me that none of your opinions are humble. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Aewrik asked a fairly nebulous question; "What is roleplaying to you?" That's hard to answer. I mean, that's akin to asking, "What is acting?" How can any response to these questions be considered accurate?
Also, I love it when people so vehemently decry the opinions of others but aren't willing to offer up their own thoughts to the chopping block in return. That's rich.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 05:05:25
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I didn't feel bad to call it BS because it was not your opinion, but a quote.
I preferred to offer an interesting link instead of try to come up with a short nicely summarized answer for a complex question in a language I'm still having trouble with.
Don't worry, with chance I won't bother you with my not so "humble" opinions anymore. I don't have fun anymore at Candlekeep.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Sep 2007 05:07:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 14:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
The whole marketing tactic of "all the previous editions suck in their own way, but 4e is really cool" really annoys me. Please, can you quit telling us how bad the game is? Up until GenCon you were 100% supportive of 3E and now it sucks? Get real. Focus on telling us what 4E has to offer rather than the deficiencies of earlier editions. Personally, I know how great 3E is and how it works perfectly for my group.
I have to agree....3E doesn't suck. Is 4E better???? No idea because they spend more time telling us how bad 3.x sucks. But from that blog, he seems to be more of a video game age gamer (which i am as well as being a D&D rper).
So if I want flufless, I'll play video games....heck I need the fluff in video games too usually (be it an RPG storyline or a Hockey game Dynasty keeping track of all the stats and stuff) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 20:37:25
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I think it seems like the 4.0 guys were gamers who could not deal with high level magic, so they are "dumbing" down magic in the realms. Seems Magic is getting the short end of the stick, kinda like how monks got "cooler"(trying to use 4.0 lingo) from 3.0 to 3.5 for no reason. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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darkhuntress
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 21:39:08
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One of the most intense gaming sessions I ever had was towards the beginning of my current campaign, when I ran my players through the old Twisted Tower module. I tweaked it quite a bit and made Kurastan the leader of a Vhaeraunite sect that was trying to re-take the tower as a base of ops to launch a campaign against the Dalelands.
At any rate, once the PCs (all surface elves) reached the fortress proper, they came across an altar that had the dessicated remains of a dwarven slave child who'd been sacrificed by the drow. To my amazement (though I shouldn't really have been surprised given the quality of my players), they decided to hold an impromptu funeral for the child. Lindir, the party's cleric (a moon elven Starsinger of Sehanine Moonbow), began singing a dirge and the rest of them joined in. They danced, and invoked Sehanine's blessing on the child's spirit so that he would find his way home to the Allfather. Then they wrapped the body in silks they'd picked up in one of the earlier adventures, and the party's mage sealed it in stone. I was left speechless.
They were much, much more vicious toward the drow after that. And it was always the priests they went after, first.
That sort of thing is why I play D&D. |
"Do not mistake our kindness for gullibility, nor our hesitance to draw blades for cowardice. Contrary to what the spider kissers would have you believe, Dark Ladies are not addle-brained, pacifist weaklings. We'd have all died a long time ago if that were the case." --Lady Kariza de'Camyras, High Priestess of the Temple of the Silver Crescent |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 00:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
quote:
Originally posted by Aewrik
What is roleplaying to you?
That's a hard question to answer. I don't think I'm capable of describing how I feel about RP, but I do think that the Role-Playing Game Manifesto provided by Guardians of Order does a good job of defining its context:
These rules are written on paper, not etched in stone tablets.
Rules are suggested guidelines, not required edicts.
If the rules don't say you can't do something, you can.
There are no official answers, only official opinions.
When dice conflict with the story, the story always wins.
Min/Maxing and munchkinism aren't problems with the game; they're problems with the player.
The Game Master has full dicretionary power over the game.
The Game Master always works with, not against, the players.
A game that is not fun is no longer a game - it's a chore.
This book contains the answers to all things.
When the above does not apply, make it up.
love,
nathan.
I actually liked the reply, even printed it for reading it to my players at the start of the next session.
BTW there is no need for any grudges guys, different opinions makes the forum more interesting colourfull.
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Edited by - Marquant Volker on 27 Sep 2007 00:04:52 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 00:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Marquant Volker
I actually liked the reply, even printed it for reading it to my players at the start of the next session.
I urge you to reconsider reading this to your players.
Only one line here seems good to me : A game that is not fun is no longer a game - it's a chore. However, that is true for all games, not only for RPG and doesn't learn us anything.
Good rules have been carefully designed and playtested, changing them during play is not a good idea.
Min/Maxing is not a problem at all, it simply means playing the game well. If you don't like that another player do it, you are probably not playing the same "game" than him.
If munchkinism rytmes with cheating, okay it's a problem with the player.
Giving Game Master full dicretionary power over the game is the most stupid idea above. What is needed is an explicit contract between the players and the GM. If the GM doesn't respect the contract, he is cheating.
That's another stupid one : The Game Master always works with, not against, the players.
That depends on the game, in a gamist RPG like D&D, there is a competition between the players and the DM -> Players use strategies to outmatch the obstacles set by the DM. When they succeed, they are rewarded (+xp), when they fail, they are penalized (-xp).
Instead, some RPG are based on collaborative story building where there is no competition at all. Same could be said about pure simulationist games. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 27 Sep 2007 01:30:34 |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 05:09:06
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Ugly is the New Black:
I thank you for posting that. It's very nice to see.
The only addition I have is
If the rules get in the way of a good story or the fun of all, ignore them.
Skeptic:
The game you are playing, against the DM seems unpleasant to me. If you all are having fun, more power to you. There are groups that are not all about Player versus DM competition, please respect that, as I respect your idea of what is fun. That's the glory of the game, allowing all sides a way to play the game their own way.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 06:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
That's the glory of the game, allowing all sides a way to play the game their own way.
It has nothing do to with how specific groups choose to change the game to fit their playstyle, it has to do with how the game is built, and that is fact not a opinion.
Also I never said that D&D fit with my playstyle, I'm just saying what the game is as written in the books.
The real question is : if you don't want a gamist playstyle, why play D&D and not try an RPG that support a playstyle you prefer?
I can't understand the "I prefer to stick with D&D because I don't know anything else" answer.
Well, in fact the people who answer in this way aren't really sticking with D&D, because they change the game a lot without identifying clearly what they want from the game.
The most common dangerous change done by these people is to ignore the reward system by giving fixed XP.
Why fixed XP is really bad in D&D ? Because XP is the reward system of D&D and a reward system is a really important part of an RPG because it says to the players the kind of thing they should try to do. In D&D, XP says to the players : use your guts, manage your ressources well, and do a group strategy to beat the obstacles, mainly combat ones.
One could say : no problem, I don't give XP when they beat monsters, I give XP when the players are good in acting "in character". The problem is that the XP they receive won't help them becoming method actors, it will help them beating monsters, what you don't really care about anyway.
Enough of it for tonight.. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 27 Sep 2007 06:37:52 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 06:42:11
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| Well, it seems like I have made a bad job of playing D&D (and DM'ing it)up through the years; I have done everything wrong. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 06:47:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, it seems like I have made a bad job of playing D&D (and DM'ing it)up through the years; I have done everything wrong.
You and me both, it seems. As I said earlier in the week, I guess I don't actually play, or DM, D&D..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 27 Sep 2007 06:47:30 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 06:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, it seems like I have made a bad job of playing D&D (and DM'ing it)up through the years; I have done everything wrong.
Well, D&D is probably not the best game for the major part of the posters here. (IMHO D&D isn't a really good game at all)
Also, you just did the best you could do with D&D because you didn't know anything else (it was the same for me!).
But if you always changed D&D rules to make it fit your playstyle in those years, why not trying something else ?
I would like to hear what good roleplaying is for you Jorkens ?
If you want my favorite playstyle, or what is good roleplaying for me :
As a GM, I want to put my players into various conflictual situation (according to their characters believes/traits/ideals/goals/etc.) and see why they choose to go for one of the possible outcome. I want to look (with pleasure) at how the players make their character evolve (i.e. changes in the list above) and come to a resolution during the campaign*. Shortly, I want to write a story with the players.
Two fantasy RPG for that style of play : The Burning Wheel, The Riddle of Steel. However, they are not FR friendly (magic system is a problem)
*In opposition to people who like to watch at their character making decision faithfully to a fixed concept defined at creation (i.e. playing a paladin in a game that penalize the player when he don't follow the code). |
Edited by - Skeptic on 27 Sep 2007 07:39:51 |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 09:20:49
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It doesn't matter if you're playing Dungeons & Dragons, Alternity, Iron Heroes, Rifts, Vampire: The Masquerade, Legend of the Five Rings, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu or any other RPG; sooner or later, the rules will get in the way of telling a good story. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. When presented with a scenario like this, you don't have many options; either bend the rules to fit the situation, break them entirely, or force your players to do what the book says. Only bad DMs choose the third option when the first two would prove more entertaining.
Consider the following scenario:
A paladin and a rogue are trudging through the sewers beneath the city streets, hot on the trail of a cultist who fled underground to escape justice. Up ahead, the duo sees a shadowy black obelisk rising up out of a river of muck. As they draw nearer, they notice that it's actually a statue of a woman garbed in black. A simple Knowledge (religion) check reveals her to be the Goddess Shar. Upon realizing this, waves of terror course through the rogue, who cannot bring himself to step another foot toward it. The paladin, however, stands boldly in its treacherous shadow, uneffected.
The statue is actually a magical trap that continuously emits the cause fear spell, which automatically effects anyone who comes within 30 feet who isn't a follower of Shar. The rogue fails his will save, and can't approach it. But the paladin is immune to fear, so he can do as he pleases. Unfortunately, the book says that only rogues can find and disable magical traps, so unless we bend the rules a bit, the PCs are pretty much up a creek without a paddle. Adventure over. The bad guys get away.
I think it's perfectly acceptable, in this case, to say that the rogue can walk the paladin through the process of finding and disabling the trap. I think that's reasonable. I mean, it's just like when you see somebody disarming a bomb with help from an expert walking him through it on a radio; "Okay, open up the case. What do you see? Two green wires? Okay, here's what you do ... and please remember, whatever happens, don't cut the red wire."
The rules say you can't do that. In fact, they're very adamant about telling you that only rogues can find and disable magical traps. But in this case, that rule gets in the way of the excitement. It gets in the way of realism. It gets in the way of telling a good story. And so I think you're well within your rights as a DM to bend it a bit if the players come up with a good plan like this that isn't supported by the rules.
At the end of the day, we're still playing the same game even though the rules have changed.
Like it or not, believe it or not, that's still Dungeons and Dragons.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 11:47:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, it seems like I have made a bad job of playing D&D (and DM'ing it)up through the years; I have done everything wrong.
Well, D&D is probably not the best game for the major part of the posters here. (IMHO D&D isn't a really good game at all)
Also, you just did the best you could do with D&D because you didn't know anything else (it was the same for me!).
But if you always changed D&D rules to make it fit your playstyle in those years, why not trying something else ?
I would like to hear what good roleplaying is for you Jorkens ?
If you want my favorite playstyle, or what is good roleplaying for me :
As a GM, I want to put my players into various conflictual situation (according to their characters believes/traits/ideals/goals/etc.) and see why they choose to go for one of the possible outcome. I want to look (with pleasure) at how the players make their character evolve (i.e. changes in the list above) and come to a resolution during the campaign*. Shortly, I want to write a story with the players.
Two fantasy RPG for that style of play : The Burning Wheel, The Riddle of Steel. However, they are not FR friendly (magic system is a problem)
*In opposition to people who like to watch at their character making decision faithfully to a fixed concept defined at creation (i.e. playing a paladin in a game that penalize the player when he don't follow the code).
I was being slightly sarcastic in my first post, in my opinion I have played D&D (the old versions) as it fitted me and my group.
As for not knowing anything else; that's wrong. D&D was the third game system I used, after GURP and Drakar och Demoner (swedish). If you count one session, I could also include TORG. Do I prefer these system, in many ways yes. But there is a different flavour to each system and each has its entertainment value.
For me roleplaying is story and spontaneity. There is little preset and no rule will come in the way of the story and the fun. Dice may give ridiculous results and some times that gives great roleplaying situations. Other times it would ruin the flow and the fun and this DM will cheat like it was the ticket to enter paradise when the rules would damage the players fun .
I see your point about the rules being a balanced set; Gygax wrote quite a bit on the same subject years ago, but a roleplaying game is different from other games and there will be a greater degree of individual adaption for each person/group. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 27 Sep 2007 14:28:08 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 12:21:24
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| As it is stated in the DMG (18, 14), a DM cannot cheat. It is his game, and he is in controll. If he wishes to alter the rules, he can do so. That invalidates some arguments of Skeptic he made earlier about D&D and playing the game as it is meant to be played (but not in his last post!). |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 27 Sep 2007 12:24:39 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 14:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
For me roleplaying is story and spontaneity. There is little preset and no rule will come in the way of the story and the fun.
I know you were being sarcastic...
In a game using a conflict resolution system instead of a task resolution system like D&D, the dices "never" come in the way of the story.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 15:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
For me roleplaying is story and spontaneity. There is little preset and no rule will come in the way of the story and the fun.
I know you were being sarcastic...
In a game using a conflict resolution system instead of a task resolution system like D&D, the dices "never" come in the way of the story.
Yes, but I think I would miss the randomness of the dice if I tried a system without them. This is of course speculation as I never have tried. Some of my fondest memories come from the randomness of dice, with spectacular fumbles and critical successes. That is not limited to D&D. Western games with GURPS would be the king of all dice excitement. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 15:06:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
As it is stated in the DMG (18, 14), a DM cannot cheat. It is his game, and he is in controll. If he wishes to alter the rules, he can do so. That invalidates some arguments of Skeptic he made earlier about D&D and playing the game as it is meant to be played (but not in his last post!).
First, I was talking about all RPG not D&D in this post (I said GM and not DM).
Second, at page 18 they are speaking of dice fudging, something that is used by the majority of DM because of many problems with the rules (too many save-or-die, critical hit for NPCs, etc.)
If the players know and approve that the DM will sometimes fudge the dices result to reduce the death rate, the DM is not cheating. (the contract isn't broken) |
Edited by - Skeptic on 27 Sep 2007 15:16:18 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 15:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Yes, but I think I would miss the randomness of the dice if I tried a system without them. This is of course speculation as I never have tried. Some of my fondest memories come from the randomness of dice, with spectacular fumbles and critical successes. That is not limited to D&D. Western games with GURPS would be the king of all dice excitement.
A conflict resolution sytem can use dices. The idea of such a system is that both the players and the GM set the stakes of failure and sucess before the roll is made. Both outcome must move the story forward, usually, sucess means the player got what he wants, failure means the GM get it.
There is no such thing like : you fail and nothing happen. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 27 Sep 2007 15:16:34 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 15:21:24
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I do not think that players have to know or to approve that the DM fudge the dices sometimes. He can do it as he likes, and he does not cheat then (as is stated on page 18). But I doubt that you are correct by stating that page 18 is about dice fudging. This is mentioned as one example, but the general theme is, as stated by the title: "DM Cheating and Player Perception". And here it says: "The DM really can't cheat. You're the umpire, and what you say goes." This is D&D.
In the same manner page 14 is speaking of changing the rules. This paragraph warns that this is a cause not to be taken lightly, and that the rules are there for a reason, but ultimately, the DM has the power to do as he likes. This is also D&D, played by the rules and as it is meant to be played. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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What is roleplaying?
