| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 17:52:33
|
| What does he mean with "rehabilitate the Harpers"? Was something wrong with them? |
 |
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 18:01:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
What does he mean with "rehabilitate the Harpers"? Was something wrong with them?
I'm not sure. That passage confused me as well. The only thing I can think of is Moonstar/Harper schism, thus some people feel that that was a mistake and so they are doing away with it.
Maybe someone should go ask him to clarify? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 18:07:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
What does he mean with "rehabilitate the Harpers"? Was something wrong with them?
From one of his prior comments, he regards the Harper Schism as a mistake. This is one of the things that angers me most about 4E FR, since I thought the Harper Schism was very good stuff that was sadly ignored when 3E was inflicted on us (ditto with the Manshoon Wars). In fact, I regard Cloak & Dagger as one of the best Realms products we've ever had, for any edition. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Jan 2008 18:09:06 |
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 19:15:09
|
The Schism also added a depth to Khelben that I didn't know previously existed. Personally, it made me love the character even more, this and the novel Blackstaff.
|
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 21:15:27
|
| The Schism was never among my favorite plot ideas, although the development of the happenings was fascinating. I don't like to see them being left hanging though; I wonder what the great danger Khelben sought to stop was? Has this ever been revealed? |
|
|
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 22:40:00
|
A lot of things happened at the end of AD&D that weren't "finished" in 3E and a lot of things were dumped on us in 3E that were never explained or expanded on.
I guess that's the legacy of the old guard, broken promises. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 23:23:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The Schism was never among my favorite plot ideas, although the development of the happenings was fascinating. I don't like to see them being left hanging though; I wonder what the great danger Khelben sought to stop was? Has this ever been revealed?
All we know about it was the prophecy in Cloak & Dagger: quote:
At least one sagely member identified an ancient prophecy in Amagal's Tome, an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor, as noting that the Tel'Teukiira "will come hidden and in many guises and faces. They dwell in shadow and speak in omens, yet they shall bring about waking dreams and save us from the Three Threats Who Wait in Darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves." None of the Tel'Teukiira can say what all this means, though many suspect Khelben knows and simply does not say.
I think the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars were awesome ideas, and that there was an incredible amount of potential there. It was bad enough that 3E ignored both ideas, but to now brush them aside is, to me, far worse. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 23:41:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
What does he mean with "rehabilitate the Harpers"? Was something wrong with them?
I'm not sure. That passage confused me as well. The only thing I can think of is Moonstar/Harper schism, thus some people feel that that was a mistake and so they are doing away with it.
Maybe someone should go ask him to clarify?
Wooly is correct--Rich has said more than once that it is likely the Harpers and the Moonstars will be merged back together for 4E.
Which is an idea I don't very much care for, since I liked the Moonstars as a seperate and different organization. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 00:13:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars were awesome ideas, and that there was an incredible amount of potential there. It was bad enough that 3E ignored both ideas, but to now brush them aside is, to me, far worse.
Well Ed is writing about the Knights which is way back before current times, so maybe he'll (hope, beyond hope) write up something on the Manshoon Wars! I know I'd buy this for certain |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 01:17:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
What does he mean with "rehabilitate the Harpers"? Was something wrong with them?
From one of his prior comments, he regards the Harper Schism as a mistake. This is one of the things that angers me most about 4E FR, since I thought the Harper Schism was very good stuff that was sadly ignored when 3E was inflicted on us (ditto with the Manshoon Wars). In fact, I regard Cloak & Dagger as one of the best Realms products we've ever had, for any edition.
I whole-heartedly agree with you, Wooly! If I had to pick a list of the best FR products ever, Cloak & Dagger would be included in the Top 3 (FR Adventures and Faiths & Avatars would be my other choices, although the original 'grey' 1st Edition FR Boxed Set would be a valid contestant, too). Like yourself, I was also quite amazed that they ignored almost all of the best ideas presented by FR's own Loremasters, choosing to drop the Shades and 'All Things Shadow' (Shar, Mask and the Shadow Weave) into the "limelight".
I'm still not sure why -- 3E had just come out, and had proved to be a commercial success, and based on what I've read, even they were surprised by the sales (then again, expections weren't riding high, as I recall). Was it based on a marketing survey? Did they intentionally use a "different" kind of approach to see how it would impact on the sales of 3E FR products? Did the FR Design Team get a free hand to try anything, because FR fans were thought of being "sheepishly" loyal to the brand? Did they think that FR needed a change, or even that they should design and market it to a younger and "less demanding" customer base? After all, many "older" fans tend to be 'choosy', and only buy those books they think will actually benefit their game somehow.
I can understand completely why they've done all that with 4E (although I most certainly do not like any of it), but I'd like to hear what were the reasons behind the 3E FR Design Team's creative decisions. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 11:29:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars were awesome ideas, and that there was an incredible amount of potential there. It was bad enough that 3E ignored both ideas, but to now brush them aside is, to me, far worse.
Are 'ME TOO' posts allowed? 
As many have said here C&D is one of the best supplements to come out for FR. There is so much you can do with the information in there.
The Harper Schism and Manshoon Wars are packed full of potential and added to the history of the Realms in dramatic but subtle ways. Unfortunately it seems that 3e+ designers prefer dramatic and 'blow the Realms up' ways instead.
Shame really as the small scale stories are the best.
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
|
|
|
arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 12:27:49
|
IIRC didn't Ed. Greenwood say that designers liked the 'new & shiny'? Maybe the 3E designers wanted something new & shiny. I too think it's a waste of good ideas, but there you are.  |
|
|
|
Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 17:43:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars were awesome ideas, and that there was an incredible amount of potential there. It was bad enough that 3E ignored both ideas, but to now brush them aside is, to me, far worse.
Are 'ME TOO' posts allowed?
As many have said here C&D is one of the best supplements to come out for FR. There is so much you can do with the information in there.
The Harper Schism and Manshoon Wars are packed full of potential and added to the history of the Realms in dramatic but subtle ways. Unfortunately it seems that 3e+ designers prefer dramatic and 'blow the Realms up' ways instead.
Shame really as the small scale stories are the best.
Damian
I'd say that bioth the prosaic and epic scale have their place in storytelling and gaming, but 3.5 is/was slanted WAY too heavily towards the "It's the End of the World -- Again" school of writing.
(As a personal note, I also miss the old 'dungeon crawl'. Why did everything have to be a crusade against evil? Sometimes you just want to try some amoral money grubbing... ;) |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 19:22:16
|
These comments just in from Rich Baker:
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Baker
Good one, Stigger. You're right, the Hellgate Keep story is pretty tied into Blood War lore.
(As I said before, we wouldn't retcon it anyway... just wondering how rooted into the setting the Blood War really was. Thanks for the reminder.)
quote:
Originally posted by Stigger
Just off the top of my head, it would radically alter the history of Ascalhorn and eventually Hellgate Keep by extension. The entire dynamic of the event would lose a lot of if the Blood War rationale were suddenly stripped out of it. I seem to recall it having some impact on most places where there were gates to the lower planes actually, at least in an abstract sense.
-And-
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Baker
On an unrelated note:
I've suddenly gotten very, very busy, and I'm going to have to step out of this forum for a few weeks. I hope that folks like Eric, George, or Brian might be able to stop by and answer 3e-ish questions as they come up.
Sorry to "go dark" for a bit, but I'll get back as soon as I can.
|
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 20:02:50
|
Are you trying to put Kuje out of a job? 
Anyhow, before I begin, I just want people to know where I stand (today).
I had decided fairly early on to use the 4e rules, and NOT use the 4e Realms. I was afraid they were going to change so mush that it wouldn't appeal to me (my 'Unsundering theory', which is now shot). After the release of Rich's 4e Preview, I realized that its still the same FR - just pushed a century into the future. If cities can appear overnight, why can't a new kingdom form in that much time? Granted, the god-thing is a major issue, and they seem to have brought back the ToT - those 'Plaguelands' sound exactly like the Wild Magic Zones from 2e, and the Changing Lands sounds like an amalgam of Eberron's Mournland and The Helmlands in Cormyr. In fact, it sounds like they just made FR very 'messy', and didn't really create anything new or 'inspiring'.
In a word - the changes were bland, at least IMO. As of right now, the only reason I see for them even bothering with the time-jump and a new editon of the Realms is to change peoples attitudes about it - people who aren't likey to play in FR anyway - and to introduce Draconians into FR (under a new name, which was already used in FR by something else -amazing). I think EVERYTHING - including the Dragonborn - could have been done with a single RSE over a five year period, putting us around 1390 DR.
In fact, thats what year I'm setting my game in - and I DO plan to use 4e FR at this point. By using the new setting (which appears to be nothing more then a badly-botched makeover) in the current timeframe, I can use both the old NPCs and lore, and continue forward with any new material that comes down the pipe (however atrocious it may be). It seems it will be fairly simple to ignore the time-jump, becuase Rich Baker has said in his article he doesn't plan on developing ANY lore for the intervening years (a nice big hole we at CK can fill, eh?  ). Just pretend the new campaign date in the 4e FRCG is a typo, and move on... its fairly simple, really.
Now, all of that brings me to my point (finally) - after Rich's answers today concerning the Bloodwar (which he apparently knows NOTHING about), and my exchange with him the other day (where he actually didn't know any lore outside of what he wrote, even in products with his name on it!), it had become painfully obvious that the current FR design team knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the Forgotten Realms. 
When you have to ask fans about something called 'The Bloodwar', and they point out MANY places in FR canon where it had some meaning, and you realize you made a HUGE mistake, then you should NOT be in charge of FR. The fact that knowledge of a setting is no longer a pre-requisite for 'steering' it's future is terrible - I see now why they feel the need to ignore all previous lore.
They didn't know any. 
I've been saying since the beginning that this new edition was for them, and not for us, and I'm right, at least on that count. I will still use whatever garbage we are handed in 4e, but after my latest epiphany, I have very little hope for the Realm's future.
P.S. - If you want some inkling of what the Shadowfell and Feywild will look like in 4e, just read some Birthright material - the parallels are an extraodinary coincidence.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 20:11:39
|
The Blood War comment also struck me as odd. Any fan of the Realms when asked whether or not it has significance to the setting would reply with a resounding "yes!".
So I'm sharing the same epiphany here. And I'm continually amazed at the lack of research done by the people who are designing the setting. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 20:19:10
|
Well, he did admit that he reads very little outside of what HE writes, and other designers/authors have admitted much the same in the past.
Our hopes are now on the shoulders of Brian and George, god bless them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 21:44:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Are you trying to put Kuje out of a job?
Indeed. Cries. :( Nah, I'm only kidding. I was busy elsewhere and so I didn't check the boards yet today. If someone snagged the posts 1st, cool beans. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 22:31:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, he did admit that he reads very little outside of what HE writes, and other designers/authors have admitted much the same in the past.
Our hopes are now on the shoulders of Brian and George, god bless them.
Yep. I'm glad we still have them on board. It also gives me hope that Ed is writing a fair portion of the FRCS and it's been hinted at that there'll be useful information even for those not planning on using the Spellplague. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 02:54:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I will still use whatever garbage we are handed in 4e, but after my latest epiphany, I have very little hope for the Realm's future.
If you still buy whatever garbage they decide to hand you, then I must say, no offense intended, that you can't claim the high moral ground on the 4E Realms, Markustay. In fact, you'll be doing exactly what they want. 4E Realms is a pure marketing experiment: they are scrapping something good, keeping the old brand name, and putting it on something completely new. They are hoping that the new fanbase will be bigger in volume than the old, and if a few of the old follows, bonus to them (but they are not spending an ounce of money or time marketing to the old fans)
It's like Nike clothes/shoes. 20 years ago we bought fluorescent gym clothes, thinking it was cool. Then we grew up, and the brand grew up with us somewhat. Then came a point where nothing Nike made appealed to you. Why? all their stuff was made for young crowd, and you were now wearing a grown up suit at work. Sure, there are mall-cruising, cigarette-smoking old crones that have "followed the new brand and buy teenager spandex," but their patutie look enormous in it, as the pants cannot hold the wealth of baggage and experience they still carry.
 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 03:20:31
|
Well, the way I look at it at this point is this -
They are not going to back-peddle at this point and change everything back for us. In fact, if they did that, it would be SO much worse - just like the way everyone is comparing their current strategy to comic book plots, what would we end up with? Them saying "oh BTW, it was all a bad dream... welcome to the real 1383 DR."
So, since we are never getting the Realms we want back, then the only other choice is to not purchase anything and let it die. I probably won't use a lot of the 4e lore - at least not how its presented - but I want to use 4e rules and the easiest way to do that is to just use the setting pretty much as presented in 4e. I DON'T plan on moving my timeline forward (my game had been in 1390), but I will basically just say all of that stuff took place in 5 years, not 94 - that way I can still use all my favorite NPCs. A century time-jump is a completely uneccessary Deus Ex Machina to get people to believe its a whole new setting, which it clearly isn't.
Also, I'm looking forward to 50.000 words of lore from Ed, which should still be usable either way.
Now, after I buy the 4e FRCG, I will most likely not be making any future FR purchases, unless I think they may in some way be helpful to the type of game I want to run (like, perhaps, the Players Guids).
Other then that, I'm just going to concentrate on Core books, and converting all the 3e stats for my favorite NPCs and items in 4e rules. I really hope 4e FR doesn't flop though, because 1, 2 , and 3e aren't coming back, and at least I know as long as someone out there is buying this stuff, I'll still have places like CK to come to and enjoy homebrew lore. I really don't see many fansites staying around more then a couple years after a setting fails, going by what I've seen of other excellent fansites that just petered out after awhile. Without an influx of new fans, the setting will die a slow and painful death.
In all honesty, do you really think most FR fans WON'T buy the FRCG? At this point, its a matter of morbid curiousity. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2008 03:27:55 |
|
|
|
hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 07:55:46
|
So, several months back I read Salvatore's Orc King a few days before release (I have connections ) and didn't even make it out of the prelude and I was stunned. I already knew about 4e, and I wondered about the fate of the Forgotten Realms. There it was, fast forward, the setting was going to change, and there would be hell to pay. I marked the page for further review, and to reference when I logged back on to the Keep for comment.
Fast forward IRL to December/January. I had not taken a look on Candlekeep in all those months while I (finally! ) finished graduate school. I hesitated, I postponed, I waited, and when I logged on a week into January my fears were confirmed. All hell had broken loose.
The changes proposed by the Coastly Wizards, and ideas leaked in dark forums across the ethereal net caused quite a stir in the hallowed halls of Candlekeep. Chained to their desks with narry a break in their work, the scribes cried out in defiance, "Why Ed of the Greenwood, why hast thou foresaken us! Why have thee let those infernal wizards who dwell on the coast take our Realms and despoil them?" There were no easy answers for the scribely slaves to the written word of the wonderous Realms.
In solidarity, the scribes conjured wards and protective magics against the shift in time. The role of years was not done. Stories of lives and heroics were yet unfolding. Good and evil still battled in the present. The Wizards-Gods could not abandon the adventures and campaigns of the here and now. Candlekeep would trudge on with the brave souls of the current timeline. Let the future wait they intoned.
Yet, echoing faintly through the halls the ghosts of the past, and specters of the future wondered, what will happen to the Realms' canon of lore? Who will act as a guide for those who carry on in the future? And so, questions were murmured in secret threads and by ethereal messages about who would continue the legacy in the great halls of knowledge, in Candlekeep. Some said, "We shall write the canon, we shall record the details of what happens, no matter the era." Others thought about it and decided that they could forge ahead with the dissemination of deeds to be recorded no matter when they occur. They knew they could always play and jest about any time, place, or person of the Forgotten Realms while still keeping to their scribely duties for the overmaster, Alaundo. The Coastly Wizards were merchants that would do a caliph of Calimshan proud, yet the scribes at Candlekeep would stay true to their calling. They would record the rolls and histories, some sticking to their histories while ignoring the changes that time brings, and delight in the knowledge they shared. Candlekeep's flame would still burn bright. It would perservere for all to hold on to that flicker of hope, that spark of knowledge, that glint of truth.
So, with this in mind, I, the Hammer of Moradin, vowed to uphold the ideas and ideals that Candlekeep was founded on. I will help keep the lore from my cold, dark desk. I may not gather all of the tomes and codices of Forgotten Realms lore that the 4e fathers fill the shelves with at the bookstores, but I know that my fellow scribes will share in their wisdom, their knowledge, and their love of all things, new or old, Forgotten Realms.
|
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 09:41:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
The Blood War comment also struck me as odd. Any fan of the Realms when asked whether or not it has significance to the setting would reply with a resounding "yes!".
Well for me personally the reply would be no. But then again, it can be questioned whether I am a "true" Realms fan at all. |
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 17:05:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
The Blood War comment also struck me as odd. Any fan of the Realms when asked whether or not it has significance to the setting would reply with a resounding "yes!".
Well for me personally the reply would be no. But then again, it can be questioned whether I am a "true" Realms fan at all.
Sort of a narrow way of putting it on my part. Of course you're a fan of the setting if you're posting at Candlekeep. For me there are no true fans or false fans, only fans. And my comment was more my own shock, badly put, that this person (me) who is rather lax when it comes to Realmslore (Candlekeep is great in this regards) knows more about the Blood War and it's place in FR cannon the designers. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 17:08:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
The Blood War comment also struck me as odd. Any fan of the Realms when asked whether or not it has significance to the setting would reply with a resounding "yes!".
Well for me personally the reply would be no. But then again, it can be questioned whether I am a "true" Realms fan at all.
Sort of a narrow way of putting it on my part. Of course you're a fan of the setting if you're posting at Candlekeep. For me there are no true fans or false fans, only fans. And my comment was more my own shock, badly put, that this person (me) who is rather lax when it comes to Realmslore (Candlekeep is great in this regards) knows more about the Blood War and it's place in FR cannon the designers. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 17:09:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
The Blood War comment also struck me as odd. Any fan of the Realms when asked whether or not it has significance to the setting would reply with a resounding "yes!".
Well for me personally the reply would be no. But then again, it can be questioned whether I am a "true" Realms fan at all.
Sort of a narrow way of putting it on my part. Of course you're a fan of the setting if you're posting at Candlekeep. For me there are no true fans or false fans, only fans. And my comment was more my own shock, badly put, that this person (me) who is rather lax when it comes to Realmslore (Candlekeep is great in this regards) knows more about the Blood War and it's place in FR cannon than the designers. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 19 Jan 2008 22:03:14 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 17:20:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
The Blood War comment also struck me as odd. Any fan of the Realms when asked whether or not it has significance to the setting would reply with a resounding "yes!".
Well for me personally the reply would be no. But then again, it can be questioned whether I am a "true" Realms fan at all.
I do consider myself a Realms fan, but I'm weak on the Blood War related stuff. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 19:01:04
|
@HoM - I would of used Sembia instead of Calimshan, but otherwise good stuff.
The Bloodwar was not really FR lore, it was Planescape Lore. As we know, thanks to PS, SJ and RL, 2e had a lot of cross-pollination going on, so a lot of lore that wasn't FR became FR because of the multi-spheric cosmology.
A lot of that was down-played in 3e, although we may see a resurgence of that 'universal' feel in 4e. Either way, the Bloodwar was never truly 'part' of FR - it took place in the Great Wheel, which was ret-conned out. The way it stands, you could still use it if you want, since they aren't saying it doesn't exist - they just aren't 'talking about it' anymore.
Thats the way they handled SJ in 3e - just a few esoteric references thrown in, in case we still wanted it. The choice is still our as to what lore we want to use. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2008 21:17:56 |
|
|
|
Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 20:37:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When you have to ask fans about something called 'The Bloodwar', and they point out MANY places in FR canon where it had some meaning, and you realize you made a HUGE mistake, then you should NOT be in charge of FR. The fact that knowledge of a setting is no longer a pre-requisite for 'steering' it's future is terrible - I see now why they feel the need to ignore all previous lore.
They didn't know any.
Not to mention someone who's written at least four FR novels. EL OH EL. |
|
|
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 21:27:57
|
The comment about the Bloodwars just kinda reiterates the entire feel of the new Realms. Forget what happened before, were 104 years later and we're creating our own canon.
In their defense, they did mention a shift away from non-important sites of the Realms. Which means planes travel too. I have a feeling that 4E Realms will be very focused on Faerun-proper.
What is Faerun-proper you ask? In my opinion, draw a straight line, the eastern edge of the Dalelands to Waterdeep. Now draw a line from the northern border of the Silver Marches to the southern borders of Cormyr. Make a box around those lines and cut the rest of the Realms map out.
But then again, I could be wrong. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 19 Jan 2008 21:29:56 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
4e FR
