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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 10:06:28
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Something that struck me in the Hooded One's post ...
quote:
Ed is remaining true to his promise to “be here” for scribes, but warns that he just can’t answer as freely as he might, not just because of NDAs and not wanting to damage the process of unfolding the Realms, but because so much just isn’t known yet (by him, and presumably by most others) about specifics of the 4e Realms.
... and many other remarks. We speak about the 4E and its changes and what WotC will do. But honestly, given that many books about the Realms have been written by the very same designers - who is actually "dictating" the way the Realms will go? Who is/are this ominous "WotC" who take these decisions. No, I do not like to know who has to shoulder the "blame", but I wonder about who is actually making decisions about the FRs future - if designers like Ed don't know it yet. Who's behind the Spellplague, the extermination of the drow pantheon, the slaying of dwarven gods et al? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 19 Sep 2007 15:35:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 16:47:29
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EDIT: I found it elsewhere, so the following is incorrect -
Yesterday Rich Baker answered that question, and today the entire thread is missing off the WotC site! 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Sep 2007 16:53:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 16:51:44
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Found it -
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Baker at WotC forums
Sorry for the delay, it's been a busy week!
Our manpower schedule is currently a little bit in flux, so this is not an exhaustive list: Bruce Cordell and Rob Heinsoo will be doing some work on the FRCS, as well as relative newcomers Chris Simms and Logan Bonner. (We're gang-tackling projects much more than we used to.) I expect that we'll get some of the old outside-WotC hands involved too.
As it turns out, I'm actually hands-off on this one; I'm committed to work on other projects. But I'm one of the folks who worked on the initial revision guide, which we put together almost two years ago. (Bruce Cordell and book editor Phil Athans were the other two guys on that team.)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 16:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yesterday Rich Baker answered that question, and today the entire thread is missing off the WotC site!
It was three guys I never heard of, and Bruce Cordell writing the 4e FRCS.
This is definately a cover up and they don't want us knowing because personal attacks would more than likely occur. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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KaeYoss
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 20:56:03
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Reading what Ed wrote changed my opinion of the situation a bit: Now I might look at the 4e Realms before deciding, but the things we know still seem too much for me.
Right now I think it's quite unlikely that I'll pick up any 4e Realms book, including novels. Not impossible, but they would probably have to do something worthy of a Nobel Price to make me like the Realms with the changes we know about.
Of course, as Ed says, the things we've heard might just be subjective fiction, the stuff the loudest voice shouted out. |
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Thoughts in Kae'Yoss |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2007 : 05:18:11
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While reading the GHotR I was struck by something while reading Ed's "Salute to the Steel Regent."
"What mattered our lives now? when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Though the young bard Elender Stormfall of Suzail was commenting on the feelings of Cormyrians in the wake of the death of Azoun IV, he could have just as well been commenting on my feelings about the Realms right now. But just as Alusair and Caladnei were able to fill the shoes of Azoun and Vangerdahast as the protectors and leaders of Cormyr, so too will new heroes rise to champion the Realms and new villians rise to threaten them. With Ed's guidance, I have no reason to believe these new heroes and villians will be any less wondrous than those I have come to know and love. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2007 : 06:12:55
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| Ed's post nearly reduced me to tears, but it was because it's the last farewell to a setting I've loved most of my life. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2007 : 09:58:22
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As I said initially, this is not about bashing those "at fault" for events on the horizon. Rather on the contrary. If I know that those who cared for the Realms this past decade, I know we are in "safe hands", even if unwanted events like the deicide in the drow and dwarven panthei as well as the Spellplague happens by. Yet, if we get told that "WotC" is not exactly made up of those mentioned beforehand, I would be worried. Not that I can judge any of those nameless folk, but ... well, you know.
As for deities ... there surely cannot be a decent argument of having a need for less deities. The Romans and Celts on their haydays had about 240 and 300+ deities to choose from respectively, so plenty is not that bad at all. Obviously, one does not need to detail each and everyone, yet, the F&A series managed to do that nicely enough - and thus providing all but a rule change and a short brush up to current events. You see, I cannot argue sensibly for less deities, but publish tons of new feats and spells in each and every new sourcebook. What have we now, 1,000* arcane spells alone?
(Don't believe this? Well, the PHB features just 372 Sor/Wiz arcane spells alone ...) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 20 Sep 2007 10:11:06 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 01:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
As for deities ... there surely cannot be a decent argument of having a need for less deities. The Romans and Celts on their haydays had about 240 and 300+ deities to choose from respectively, so plenty is not that bad at all. Obviously, one does not need to detail each and everyone, yet, the F&A series managed to do that nicely enough - and thus providing all but a rule change and a short brush up to current events. You see, I cannot argue sensibly for less deities, but publish tons of new feats and spells in each and every new sourcebook. What have we now, 1,000* arcane spells alone?
(Don't believe this? Well, the PHB features just 372 Sor/Wiz arcane spells alone ...)
Yes, and a large number of deities isn't exactly exclusive to the Realms--just look at the (real, complete) Greyhawk pantheon. I don't understand what the rationale for "trimming the pantheon" would be. It's needlessly ripping away interesting aspects of the setting--the things that help it come alive. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Sep 2007 01:39:16 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 04:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't understand what the rationale for "trimming the pantheon" would be. It's needlessly ripping away interesting aspects of the setting--the things that help it come alive.
For my group having a vast selection of deities to choose from has in many ways kept the game fresh over the years. For any character concept you can come up with, there's likely a deity that will fit the bill, so to speak. For instance, I play fighters quite often, and I can have nearly identical feat, skill, race, and even weapon selections for each character and yet they can all be dramatically different characters for roleplaying purposes simply due to deity selection. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 07:08:20
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I sort of like the idea that many of the lesser gods have been destroyed or simply ceased to be. Why you ask?
Well, when you play the same character for literally decades, it would be nice to be able to work them into the Pantheon! It will be GREAT to see a character or two from our home game being able to step in and become a new deity in the Realms because now there will be room.
What better way to finally retire a character than role-play that last great adventure: To Become a God.
Will be kinda cool. Everyone can have their old characters become new gods...just an idea. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 07:32:34
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I would prefer more gods, as in nature spirits and local demi-gods, in aditon to a much higher degree of variant names and religious practises for gods according to culture. Doesn't seem likely for the moment.
As for characters becoming gods; it is OK for individual campaigns, but it is a bit of a problem when the "cleansing" takes place in the so-called Canon. Known World/Mystara was better suited for that kind of deification and religious chaos. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 07:46:14
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Religious Chaos?
I've only seen so much religious chaos in Krynn....
FR has had so many gods come and go lately with portfolio changes that it is nearly too troublesome to bother keeping up with!
At any rate, I was specifically talking about individual home games having the opportunity to have their old characters step into new positions in the Pantheon. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 08:02:43
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I knew what you meant, and I did not mean what I said as a critique, a home-campaign will always live its own life. But changes to the gods and lands always flow more smoothly when they are done for group/individual reasons and tastes, not by the publishers.
As for the portfolio changes; that's my point. It becomes a mess and a soap-opera when changes are done like this with each edition, Mystara was built around the idea of characters being able to attain immortal status, and thereby making such changes easier. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 23:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
For my group having a vast selection of deities to choose from has in many ways kept the game fresh over the years. For any character concept you can come up with, there's likely a deity that will fit the bill, so to speak. For instance, I play fighters quite often, and I can have nearly identical feat, skill, race, and even weapon selections for each character and yet they can all be dramatically different characters for roleplaying purposes simply due to deity selection.
Yes, exactly. I've had a lot of fun over the years deciding which of the many deities in the Realms would be best suited to each of my characters. There are plenty that I haven't even touched yet.
So I don't understand why WotC is now trimming the number of gods down. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Sep 2007 23:48:43 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 03:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, exactly. I've had a lot of fun over the years deciding which of the many deities in the Realms would be best suited to each of my characters. There are plenty that I haven't even touched yet.
So I don't understand why WotC is now trimming the number of gods down.
I don't like it, but it is likely tied into the "streamlining" that seems to be a common denominator with many of the rules changes I've seen so far. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 03:52:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
So I don't understand why WotC is now trimming the number of gods down.
Probably because a lot of non-FR-fans are very verbal about how there are "too many" deities? One thing that has become very clear to me, esp. recently, is that D&D players who don't like FR for whatever reason are very verbal, and I think it has influenced the WotC design team a lot.  |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 03:56:38
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quote:
Originally posted by freyar
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
So I don't understand why WotC is now trimming the number of gods down.
Probably because a lot of non-FR-fans are very verbal about how there are "too many" deities? One thing that has become very clear to me, esp. recently, is that D&D players who don't like FR for whatever reason are very verbal, and I think it has influenced the WotC design team a lot.
Honestly, nearly everything that seems to be changing seems to be the result of tailoring the setting to fit the tastes of people that don't like it currently, i.e. not people that play in it that have issues, but rather people that don't use the setting and have complaints.
I wonder sometimes if the 2nd edition "Realms is Core" mindset essentially kind of convinced people that otherwise wouldn't have commented much on a setting they don't use that they have free reign to try and decide what should and shouldn't be in the setting.
Or maybe its just because its the "top" setting, so its the most logical target. At any rate, I'm still a wee bit skeptical that these changes will really bring in long term fans, although it may get them to pick up the FRCS next year. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 03:57:03
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| Who knows what voices are the ones motivating WotC to delete so many gods at once (it really *could* be their own idea--streamlining). But if they really are paying heed to the loudest NON-fans of the setting out there...well, that obviously seems silly and illogical to me! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 22 Sep 2007 03:58:15 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 09:41:47
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Ed, can I take your hand in "imaginary" marriage?  As usual, your calm and measured responses have managed to put to rest what little doubts I had about some of the coming changes with 4E FR. Thank you. 
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Lady Kazandra on 22 Sep 2007 09:42:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 19:28:55
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I haven't yet noticed this elsewhere at CK yet, but I felt that it was appropriate to this thread-
quote:
Originallyposted by WotC_RichBaker
I'm pleased to report that Ed Greenwood will be able to contribute about 50,000 words to the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
(I wanted to say so earlier, but I had to wait and see if we could work out the scheduling questions. Ed's a busy guy and highly in demand for Forgotten Realms novels as well as game product.)
I don't know about you folks, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what Ed comes up with!
Some GOOD news is trickling in, after all.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 19:33:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I haven't yet noticed this elsewhere at CK yet, but I felt that it was appropriate to this thread-
quote:
Originallyposted by WotC_RichBaker
I'm pleased to report that Ed Greenwood will be able to contribute about 50,000 words to the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
(I wanted to say so earlier, but I had to wait and see if we could work out the scheduling questions. Ed's a busy guy and highly in demand for Forgotten Realms novels as well as game product.)
I don't know about you folks, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what Ed comes up with!
Some GOOD news is trickling in, after all....
Now I can do what you did to me. :)
It was posted in my 4e FR thread. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 19:59:35
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The more folks read that Ed is on board, the better.
Sorry, this was the first thread I hit today... should have checked others first. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Sep 2007 19:59:52 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 23:56:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Who knows what voices are the ones motivating WotC to delete so many gods at once (it really *could* be their own idea--streamlining). But if they really are paying heed to the loudest NON-fans of the setting out there...well, that obviously seems silly and illogical to me!
I suspect there are two reasons for these divine deaths: streamlining the Pantheon as you noted, and also some mechanical reason concerning the cleric class (clerical 'traditions' similar to those of the wizards', perhaps?). I was wondering why Rich said that they'd like to see more deities descending to the ranks of the demipowers? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 00:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Who knows what voices are the ones motivating WotC to delete so many gods at once (it really *could* be their own idea--streamlining). But if they really are paying heed to the loudest NON-fans of the setting out there...well, that obviously seems silly and illogical to me!
I suspect there are two reasons for these divine deaths: streamlining the Pantheon as you noted, and also some mechanical reason concerning the cleric class (clerical 'traditions' similar to those of the wizards', perhaps?). I was wondering why Rich said that they'd like to see more deities descending to the ranks of the demipowers?
From some of the wording that I gathered from the Demons and Devils article on WOTC's site, I thought that outer planes might be redefined as a planar domain maintained by a Greater God, meaning that you don't want other greater gods in the same plane, and the plane has to have a Greater God to exist. If I'm right, it syncs up with the whole "lesser god's domains don't survive the Spellplague" thing.
And if I'm right its another mechanical thing that has to do with "generic" D&D that somehow has to be retrofitted onto the Realms. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 00:42:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
As for deities ... there surely cannot be a decent argument of having a need for less deities.
When I hear 'too many', of course I think 'too many for what?'
Most of the people who say this mean nothing more than 'I need fewer gods for my campaign, so they shouldn't be in the published setting either', which is self-evidently foolish when stated outright.
The other factor was also a concern of Wizards' back in 2000 (this from Dragon #276):quote:
With twelve busy years worth of adventures, stories, and campaign expansions -- not to mention magazine articles -- the Realms is deep and rich, a place where you can find almost any environment you desire. That depth can seem intimidating, especially to new players who discovered the setting after it had accumulated enough source material to fill a library.
This intimidation has a rational part -- certain workings of the Realms are nontrivial to get to grips with but essential if you want to run it authentically -- and an irrational part -- sheer conceptual daunt. 'Look at the size of that pile of books that I haven't read!'
The gods worry is in the irrational part, as you really don't need to know about more than a dozen gods to run any area in the Realms 95% authentically, given that you want to.
Of course, no one suggests simplifying Tolkien's Arda because it's theologically difficult. Will the Realms be treated as a secondary world, or as an accessory for D&D and a backdrop for bestselling novel characters? |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 09:37:47
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| NB: Designers, do you copy? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 26 Sep 2007 09:38:19 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 13:01:01
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quote:
Originallyposted by WotC_RichBaker
I don't know about you folks, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what Ed comes up with!
Meh... (somebody failed Upbeat 101. )
Well having switched over from 2nd to 3rd, I can honestly say I welcomed the changes last time. The great wheel? oh well, didn't see how they all had to link in anyway. The map? *Sigh* OK, for expediency sake... But what we've heard so far, I have to say I feel more disappointment than any underlying enthusiam.
I've seen all this before, (Ravenloft, Battletech, etc.) And usually when the smoke has cleared things haven't been as bad as I dreaded. Here however, I'm just not getting the usual It'll be OK - you wait and see feeling.
I get the feeling that - like BT warped into MW:DA - We're not only getting a new edition but a 'shake up'; an almost-reset to open the setting up to new players. It doesn't suprise me and in someways, it pleases me, as it at least means the Realms is still regarded as a valuable setting by WotC, (so it'll definetly be around for a while).
But underneath, I just don't get the feeling that 'the realms' will remain 'the Realms' this time around. Se la vie.
Edit: (2nd to 3rd) makes more sense now.
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Edited by - BlackAce on 27 Sep 2007 13:17:01 |
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Wise words from Ed, regarding 4e FR
Topic Locked
This isn't Warhammer 40000.
Still, with Apocalypse looming, my mind is in turmoil