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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 13:31:36
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| I think Rich Baker said that the Spellplague will not have any novels written about it. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 14:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I think Rich Baker said that the Spellplague will not have any novels written about it.
so that those who like the idea can freely makeup any story they want to fit their fantasy of a awesome story... while those who don't like it... have less to ridicule.
Tyr, god of justice is fooled in his own house.... ugh.... |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 15:18:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I think Rich Baker said that the Spellplague will not have any novels written about it.
I would suggest that some sages of candlekeep write one. I already have certain individual in mind who would be right for such a task, lorewise I mean. Also, it would be a way to actually put some sense into this mess, if you get my meaning.
Oh well musings all of this. My brain's a mass these days after GHotR wrecked havoc in there..... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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BlackMoria
Acolyte
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 15:57:05
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The death of Helm makes some sort of sense if you consider the following:
Cyric always had it in for Mystra. That was established from the beginning and has been further played up over the last while.
Helm is guardianship. Helm's role in the Time of Troubles infers that guardianship extends to the godly matters as well.
Consider that Helm possibly is responsible for ensuring that the gods don't blantly butcher one another.
Cyric hatches a scheme that will remove Helm as a obstacle so that he can strike at his real target - Mystra. It is highly unlikely that he could take any effective action with Helm on watch ensuring the gods don't throw down on each other.
It makes sense, even if there are 'logic' errors - (like the notion that Tyr could be tricked into a duel with Helm over a love interest) |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 16:08:03
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I don't think anyone is accusing Cyric of acting out of character. =)
Just that he and Shar were able to romp all over both Tyr and Mystra in such a fashion. =)
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 16:53:01
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Cyric kills Mystra? I dont know but the word "shallow" echoes in my mind. I mean yes he had a thing with Mystra or Midnight. But after red the Avatar series i came to the conclusion that Cyric was in love with Midnight, and he was mad because she choose Kelemvor Lyonsbane over him. I expected a far more better plot. Of course all we got is a dozen lines right now, and its kind of early to judge.
Another thing, with Mystra and the Weave all but gone what's gonna happen to the Chosen??!?!?
As for Tyr and Helm i kinda like the idea, yes its kind of RS but the Realms are a dynamic world (too dynamic it seems)
EDIT: ok i had some thoughts about it, but i believe/hope that the guys at WotC are know what their doing, we have some events but we dont have details. All that thing that looks like radical (remember they are scatteted in 10 yrs from now -realmtime) they should come with a good story and adapt well in the Realms.
For Example:
Lets say we had the information:
King Azoun IV bites it and several powerfull nobles are making a coup with help from outside of Cormyr
Without reading the masterpiece Cormyr:A novel the imidiate response would have been like: What?!?! no more Cormyr? etc etc
But with the 3 brilliant book serie we got a wonderfull story that enchanches Cormyr and makes it better. And the Realms gains as a whole.
I believe that WotC makes a big leap in the Realms, like changing the motor of an existing car, that can wreck the car or it can improve it. The changes are announced (and they are rather big ones)we cant do nothing about it, let us hope there will be good changes. I believe we can help the new realms be a better ones, there is a lot of people who visit thit forum and our oppinions are heard.
I dont believe total denial is the answer, of course our personal campaigns is one thing (as it have always been), but i dont think that it will be good for the official realms if we stop been interested to them.
I dont believe WotC wants to destroy the Realms, why should they do that? If they want a totally different campaign setting they could create one (if i am right there was a lot of them in 2nd e) so they dont have to mess with the realms witch is a rather sophisticated and complex setting. On the long run i believe things will run smooth, after all there is Mr.Greenwood and the other designers who love the Realms and they will guard our favourite setting.
I didnt even want to think about a wrecked Realms, and i dont see it comming...otherwise as stated in a previous reply...CRAP
Just a bunch of thoughts |
Edited by - Marquant Volker on 17 Sep 2007 17:43:59 |
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BlackMoria
Acolyte
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 17:34:06
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quote:
Another thing, with Mystra and the Weave all but gone what's gonna happen to the Chosen??!?!?
We do know that the Chosen are invested with some of the power of Mystra. That said:
Possibility 1 - the Chosen die to keep the Weave from total destruction.
Possibility 2 - the Chosen are subsumed to become a new entity of magic.
Possibility 3 - the Chosen simply die.
Possibility 4 - the Chosen lose their special status as Chosen and become mortal.
Any of these are reasonable assumptions given the Chosen's close ties to the Weave and the godess of magic.
Possibility 2 is intriguing, since the promotion of Azuth to god of magic is not a given (if it was a given, he would have been promoted over Midnight). Besides holding a bit of the power of Mystra, who is to say that the Chosen don't hold some small aspect of Mystra's personality. But to reconstutite some aspect of Mystra, that means the chosen must be subsumed into a single entity.
The fly in the ointment is the inference that Elminster survives (it was stated that Drizzt and Elminster are featured in Realms 4e but I don't remember where that quote is right now). That said, it doesn't necessarily follow that Elminster survived the death of Mystra and the near destruction of the Weave unscathed and we will have to wait to learn more.
I suspect that the 'fall' of the Silver Marches may mean that Alustriel is 'out of the picture' in some fashion. Either dead or elevated beyond Chosen or subsumed in the new goddess of magic entity.
Of course, it is this humble scribe's opinion and until further information is forth coming, they are just my musings aloud. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 19:03:25
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| I don't see why anything has to happen to the Chosen... They've already survived the death of Mystra 1.0. Why should the death of 2.0 be all that different? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 19:31:58
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Man, what a wild ride it's been. While I still have hope that the Realms will still maintain the same "feel" and not become some silly side show of constant RSEs that it has been recently, I admit I am concerned and will not be surprised if I decide to ignore WotC products concerning the Realms after the Grand History.
I think even in Ed's posts where he attempts to comfort us as we as a community start to mourn for something we love start to look as though the last bit of familiarity left is being beaten out of it in order to make a buck seem a bit worried for what will come.
My campaign has deviated from cannon years ago and while there are more similarities than not, this change won't stop me from meeting with my friends and continuing to play in a Realms that I see fit to play in.
I hope that after the dust settles that I still recognize a place I've come to love and who's geography I likely know better than the real world I live in is still a little in tact. If not, in the end it's not really us that loose, it's WotC.
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Edited by - AlorinDawn on 17 Sep 2007 19:34:03 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 19:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see why anything has to happen to the Chosen... They've already survived the death of Mystra 1.0. Why should the death of 2.0 be all that different?
Last time the Weave still existed, this time it appears the Weave is gone. This is a difference. Mystra is some ways was the Weave and in some ways the Weave was Mystra. With both gone, how can Chosen, in part of the Weave and in part of Mystra remain Chosen?
Of course when talking about being part of the Weave, what happens the Elves that were part of the Weave as well?
Perhaps this questions will be answered. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 20:09:04
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| since Chosen is parttime weavekeepers they have to be able to keep a somewhat useable (though prehaps unstable with more wild magic and/or dead magic zones) substitude weave while things fix up by someone being promoted to deal with the job, either a mortal or another god taking over the portfolios needed (Isis or Throth from the Muldorandi pantheon would be good guesses if its another god, would at least someone help of with the rumors that that pantheon doesn't survive in it's current form), else there would suddenly be no magic, neither arcane or divine, since the weave 'pipelines' feeds both kinds of magic |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Verghityax
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 20:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see why anything has to happen to the Chosen... They've already survived the death of Mystra 1.0. Why should the death of 2.0 be all that different?
Well, it's quite simple in my opinion. When the former Mystra died, she has been killed on Toril, the Prime Material Plane. The new Mystra was annihilated in Dweomerheart, her own home plane and I suppose that this fact caused the destruction of the Weave. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 21:36:04
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Something just hit me.....
Imagine if we were all playing back in the day when Elves were coming up in the realms and the creation of Evermeet occurred.... That was a pretty serious RSE. =)
Of course this is a situation where we currently live in the age where we've reaped the benefits of that long gone RSE.
Though now we can feel the pain of being those elves that were sacrificed for a "better" world. =) Well as much as a ficitional elf felt their fictional death, we feel the real pain of the death of a ficitional era of the Realms. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
Edited by - Wenin on 17 Sep 2007 21:37:07 |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 05:07:15
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A thought occurs to me:
Shar + Cyric destroy Mystra in Dweomerheart.
I think something we all need to consider is Shar and the fact that Elminster may not be alive of his own accord. There's a point of light in the darkness, and fitting to keep El alive to torment him with what he's lost. (not promoting, just speculating)
Now, on to Tyr + Tymora:
Lathander has a thing for Tymora (and Beshaba, technically due to Tyche) that's established. I don't get the Tyr loves Tymora thing at all. Let alone slaying Helm for it?!! Yeah, gonna have to pass on that one guys. Whether or not Cyric is involved, Tyr versus Helm makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever, regardless of deity portfolio & "Cyric tricked him" arguments. Tyr would STAY his sword, for he is a just and good deity.
Random thought is that Lathander could be tricked by Cyric, and then help to instigate the death of Helm, but not by Tyr's hand... I just don't see it at all.
Heck, this mass deicide is just driving me nuts, as not an ounce of it makes any sense whatsoever. I actually didn't mind the Time of Troubles (first run through), but that's because I started reading the Realms after it had happened. A second culling of deities just seems... forced.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 10:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
Heck, this mass deicide is just driving me nuts, as not an ounce of it makes any sense whatsoever. I actually didn't mind the Time of Troubles (first run through), but that's because I started reading the Realms after it had happened. A second culling of deities just seems... forced.
I'm trying very hard to stay neutral about the whole 4th Edition RSE's until we get the whole picture, but I would like to toss out my two copper pieces' worth:
The Time of Troubles was in 1358 DR. That means that Mystra 2.0's deicide and subsequent Spellplague occur a mere 27 years later. Essentially, two tremendous upsets among the Powers in what amounts to one human generation in-world.
That's got to be stressful for the priests (and in this most recent case, the mages too).  |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 11:29:21
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| That's got to be stressful for Midnight! 27 years as a deity! I bet she had a longer life expectation as a mortal. Got to revisit those insurance plans for my deities. |
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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 11:41:28
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/Darkmeer
"but not by Tyr's hand... I just don't see it at all".
In my Realms Tyr has already turned, let's say, "blind" to what is good and what is bad, pursuing "justice" at all costs (an heritage of the mercykillers way of thinking, if you're familiar with the Planescape setting). I wouldn't mind a similar evolution for the canonic Tyr.
About the involvment with Tymora...it's just an untold story, I've no problem with that. |
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lockdar
Acolyte
Netherlands
18 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 13:17:43
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Wizbane, sure that could work in your setting, but so far in the current FR canon I have never seen it mentioned that either Tyr or Helm have somehow deviated from their known ways. The same with the whole Tymora fling, it might be an untold tale, but at the moment it sounds more like an 'we're shoving our new realms up your rear end weither you like it or not' tale.
About filling the post for the new God of Magic, I seriously hope Halaster gets his promotion. Give him the post and let El be a 'mortal' that still travels the realms but no longer as Elminster but maybe under a different guise. |
Save yourself a penny for the ferryman. |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 14:04:07
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Its seems weird to me the fact that Tyr the God of Justice kills another Deity by misunderstanding. I dont object with the fact that Gods have mortal weaknesses (that makes the Realms more interesting) but i would expect better from Tyr. What hes gonna do later when he find out that he was Unjust? (even if he has been tricked)
Homour: I bet Tyr met Tymora in a chat, and she gave him a false description (young model with aerobics,dance and kama-sutra as hobbies), i mean from her picture in faith and pantheons, Tymora is...well...ugly . It would be more fitting if the argument went over Sune or Sharess (miaw)
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Edited by - Marquant Volker on 18 Sep 2007 14:05:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 14:11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Marquant Volker
Homour: I bet Tyr met Tymora in a chat, and she gave him a false description (young model with aerobics,dance and kama-sutra as hobbies), i mean from her picture in faith and pantheons, Tymora is...well...ugly. It would be more fitting if the argument went over Sune or Sharess (miaw)
Heh... But keep in mind that one of the hallmarks of 3.x artwork was that it didn't always even come close to an accurate representation... The brown-haired Alustriel (I think it was her; I remember that it was one of the Seven) is an excellent example. The CoS:W pic of Kyriani was another good example: that pic didn't look anything like the previous depictions of her, nor did it come close to matching her description. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 14:55:29
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I agree with you Wooly, the illustrations arent accurate, it seems artists are hard to control, once they got their inspiration *poof* Alustriel gets a hair dye.
The second illustration from CoS:W doesnt match with the physical description , but i believe it defines the character of Kyriani (all that rogueish/clever wizzardess mix that makes Kyriani special).
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Edited by - Marquant Volker on 18 Sep 2007 14:56:37 |
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edbonny
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 16:28:12
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If past performance is to be any indicator of future possibilities, I believe it is best to approach these changes openly. I am generally thinking of these "edition change" events that led to enjoyable changes within the Realms. Here are 2 that come to mind...
- The death of Bhaal (1e->2e). I hated the loss of assassins from 1e to 2e and Bhaal's death seemed contrived to fit this "wholesome-ifying" of the AD&D game (no devils, no demons, no Hell, etc.). But creative minds intervened and in time I got an awesome video game out of it known as Baldur's Gate and we got our assassins back. Plus the concept of Bhaalspawn is simply inspired.
- Thayan merchants (3e). I know one player who found this so repugnant that he refused to even consider it. I was skeptical at first but then really warmed to the idea as it fit in with the insidious Thayan mindset. I would have preferred to see this blown-up into something big for 4e. The Thayans are building towards a specific goal (aren't they?)
That said, there are quite a few of these storylines which have me raising my eyebrow and uttering a skeptical "Oh, really?" - particularly the deicide and resultant plane-cleaning.
Can't wait to see how it all plays out! |
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BlackMoria
Acolyte
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 16:50:59
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The 'planes cleaning' might be indicative of a very persistant rumour about 4e that the 'Great Wheel' cosmology is being modified or abandoned in favor of.....don't know what yet.
There has been quite a vocal group of Realms fans who didn't like the change to Realms cosmology from the Great Wheel. It may be that a decision to revert the Realms cosmology to whatever the new 4e cosmology will be has been made and this is the foreshadowing of that.
Pure speculation on my part but the rumours of changes to the Great Wheel are persistant and supported by few comments by WOTC staffers who confirm or deny nothing but tease with their words.
My two coppers. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 17:00:51
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This:
quote:
Apparently many planes are "shifted" or destroyed. The book states that only the greater gods can protect their respective planes from the destruction. This implies that some of the lesser [and intermediate] gods might not make it.
seems to indicate that the planes will be indeed affected. Maybe this means the abandoning of the Great Tree cosmology, but what we will get instead remains a mystery until 4th ed. arrives. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 21:52:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Even Overgods go on Holiday? 
I just thought of something, would the Shadoweave survive the destruction of the weave?
If thats so, then only Shadowcasters will keep their levels in 4e. 
As Ed has pointed out, the shadowweave depends on the weave, and so it will be destroyed, too. Link.
Actually, I looked it up in MoF - It specifically says that if Mystra were to die and the Weave cease to exist, the Shadoweave would be UNHARMED. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2007 21:53:06 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 22:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, I looked it up in MoF - It specifically says that if Mystra were to die and the Weave cease to exist, the Shadoweave would be UNHARMED.
However it's not really relevant because the 4E designers won't rely on this kind of "logic" to make their decisions about the 4E realms. (In some case, it's a good idea IMHO) |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 23:16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
]Actually, I looked it up in MoF - It specifically says that if Mystra were to die and the Weave cease to exist, the Shadoweave would be UNHARMED.
I know. But Ed has contradicted the statement of MoF. It’s in the same post I quoted before. The Hooded One wrote (15 Mar 2006 : 01:40:52, you have to scroll a bit):
quote:
To those who argue that Shar could kill Mystra or destroy the Weave: those two things are the same, as Mystra IS the Weave. No mortal yet knows what would then happen, but it should be obvious that as an echo of the Weave, the Shadow Weave itself would also be destroyed (or would collapse).
Remember, the Weave isn’t the energies of magic. The Weave is magic: that is, a system of harnessing those energies by means of an existing body of spells.
The new TOME OF MAGIC presents three other “systems” of harnessing energies (“magical forces,” most sages would call them). One of those systems is Shadow Magic, and it provides magic that followers of Shar could well turn to, either if the Weave is gone, OR if a DM wants to postulate that Shadow Weave users can tap into this system. Unfortunately, one of the things that Shadow Magic as presented in that tome doesn’t provide users is “shadowfire” or darkfire as it’s been discussed in this thread thus far.
Various TSR and WotC designers and fiction writers and I have discussed these matters many times over the years, to hammer out agreement on the specifics of what Mystra can and can’t do, what Shar can and can’t do, and what the Weave and the Shadow Weave can and can’t do. Please remember two things: divine situations in the Realms aren’t static; there will inevitably be “developments” in the struggle between Shar and Mystra. And as the creator of Shar, Mystra, AND the Realms, I’m in a position to see things more clearly than anyone else.
So one has to decide if he wants to follow Ed or Magic of Faerun. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 18 Sep 2007 23:17:27 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 01:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, I looked it up in MoF - It specifically says that if Mystra were to die and the Weave cease to exist, the Shadoweave would be UNHARMED.
Going by what Ed has said about the Shadow Weave, though, I don't see how it could be unharmed, because it's not a separate but equal Weave--it is simply made up of the "echoes" of the Weave, and Shar simply happens to control access to it.
EDIT: Heh--yes, see the previous post. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 19 Sep 2007 01:45:46 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 01:45:04
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quote:
Originally posted by edbonny
- The death of Bhaal (1e->2e). I hated the loss of assassins from 1e to 2e and Bhaal's death seemed contrived to fit this "wholesome-ifying" of the AD&D game (no devils, no demons, no Hell, etc.). But creative minds intervened and in time I got an awesome video game out of it known as Baldur's Gate and we got our assassins back. Plus the concept of Bhaalspawn is simply inspired.
Indeed, that's the number one reason why I don't mind the Time of Troubles (although I came to the setting after it was introduced). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 01:55:36
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I am a wizard in almost all my games so I am on pins and needles as I await what will happen to my wizards much loved weave (hahaha, that just sounds funny). Should I start chanting in Azuth we trust?  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Topic |
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Time of Troubles 2.0 - Your opinion?
