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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 05:21:55
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This is a thought I've had for a while (and Knight, this is the skill system I've spoken to you about).
I really like the idea of condensing the skill lists. I think it makes wonderful sense to do so, and with 4e coming down the road, I think it makes sense to do a little tinkering to find out what works for D&D.
So, without further adieu, here's the list, with what skills were combined in parentheses after the skill name.
Acrobatics (str)(Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist)
Athletics (dex)(Climb, Jump, Use Rope)
Concentration (con)
Craft (int)
Deception (int) (Disguise and Forgery)
Decipher Script (int)
Handle Animal (cha)
Heal (wis)
Knowledge (int)(Appraisal, Architecture & Engineeering, Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nature, Nobility & Royalty, Religion, The Planes)
Manipulation (cha or int)(Bluff & Intimidate)
Negotiation (cha or wis)(Diplomacy & Gather information)
Perception (wis)(Spot & Listen)
Perform (int or cha)(Vocal, Stories, Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, Percussion, Oratory)
Profession (wis)
Psicraft (int)
Ride (dex)
Search (int)
Sense Motive (wis)
Security (int)(Disable Device, Open Lock, makeshift traps)<--Spycraft skill name
Sleight of Hand (dex)
Sneak (dex)(Hide and Move Silently)
Speak Language (n/a)
Spellcraft (int)
Streetwise (wis)
Survival (wis)
Swim (str)
Use Magic Device (cha)
Use Psionic Device (cha)
This is merely parsing down the current skill list by (now more than)ten skills, but it's a huge breakdown. Outside of the Sneak/Perception contention that I already know about, any other thoughts?
/d
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"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 02 Sep 2007 20:57:29
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 07:11:49
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| Don't know if it helps, but the Neverwinter Nights (1 and 2) CRPGs have both combined all of the above Knowledge skills into a "Lore" skill that essentially does the above. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 19:08:41
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Daviot:
I'm not really sure if it helps. I remember lore from NWN 1, but I like the idea of specializing in specific knowledges. Think about it this way: Sure, He's a rocket scientist, but he doesn't know jack about the ecology of a shambling mound. I certainly could make lore something for bards, much like the current setup, but "better." I'll ponder some more & post when I finish up another project.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 20:29:23
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| I would also add Swim to athletics, and perhaps Survival too. I would also have a 'Deception' category, including Disguise, Sleight of Hand and Forgery, and possibly Bluff as well. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 20:46:04
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Reefy:
While I would normally agree that swim should be in athletics (believe me, I'd love to), but it doesn't fit in my mind. Why? Because I can't see a dwarven character who is very athletic knowing how to swim, they just don't do it. Survival I actually like to be a stand alone skill, especially since it is wisdom based.
As to the... deception category:
I'd most likely agree with disguise and forgery, as they aren't an "active" skill per se, but bluff isn't one that I'd like to do in that category. I might consider "acting in character" as part of the deception category, but that would be as far as I'd take it.
If we're dancing with sleight of hand, I can see a great parallel to forgery, especially without printing presses. Fortunately/unfortunately, one could be very skilled at picking pockets and have the handwriting of a three-year-old. Take a look at some artists: They can create these wonderful sculptures/paintings/drawings, but many of them (myself included in this) have terrible handwriting. So, I'd say okay with conditions.
Since it's an exercise in cinematics/ideas I'll add a few things to the above list...
And changes are there. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 02 Sep 2007 20:53:58 |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 04:55:48
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Okay, I've figured out skills for each character, and skill points as well. You'll see that NO class gets 2+intelligence modifier per level skills. That's lousy.
Barbarian: (4+int)
Athletics, Craft, Handle Animal, Manipulate, Perception, Ride, Survival, Swim
Bard: (8+int)
All skills are class skills 
Cleric: (4+int)
Concentration, Craft, Heal, Knowledge (Arcana, History, Religion, the Planes), Negotiation, Profession, Spellcraft
Druid: (4+int)
Concentration, Craft, Heal, Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), Perception, Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Survival
Fighter: (3+int) (this takes into account the fighter variant in the 3.5 Workshop: fighters thread)
Athletics, Handle Animal, Manipulate, Ride, Swim
Monk: (6+int)
Athletics, Acrobatics, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (Arcana, Religion), Negotiation, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Swim
Paladin: (5+int)
Athletics, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Religion), Negotiation, Ride, Sense Motive
Ranger: (5+int)
Athletics, concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nature, Geography), Perception, Stealth, Survival
Rogue: (8+int)
Acrobatics, Athletics, Craft, Deception, Decipher Script, Knowledge (Appraise, Local), Manipulation, Negotiation, Perform, Profession, Security, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Streetwise, Swim, Use Magic/Psionic Device
Sorcerer: (4+int)
Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (Arcana), Manipulation, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Wizard (4+int)
Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge (any), Profession, Spellcraft.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm fairly satisfied with the skill lists. The determination of skill points was 1/2 of the skills rounded down for a non-skilljack, while up for a skilljack. Fighters fall into a niche where I automatically upped their skills just on basis of being more able to actually DO things outside of combat. I especially like that Fighters get to use Manipulate, meaning that they can effectively Feint in combat now! I'm so happy about that.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 03 Sep 2007 05:04:14 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 09:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
I would also add Swim to athletics, and perhaps Survival too. I would also have a 'Deception' category, including Disguise, Sleight of Hand and Forgery, and possibly Bluff as well.
I think in similar lines:
Elimiate the 'Manipulation' category and instead through Bluff into the 'Deception' category and intimidate into 'Negotiation'.
(--> I just read your last entry and under those curcumstances I might leave the skills as they are, esp. with the fighter + manipulation combo ............)
Other than that I would drop the 'bound' ability modifier and leave it up to the DM to decide what kind of DC bonus aplies (I don't exactly recall where I have read that, but in some book there is explained how abiliy mods might differ from skill check to skill check depending on the goal that is to be accomplished.)
As for the skill points - I would leave the point/lvl as they are but drop the 1/2 rank thingy - 1 point for skill +1 - simple easy and IMO sufficiant.
Some of my thoughts on this.....
BTW, I especially like your Perseption idea. brings back old memories from the earlier editions! 
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 03 Sep 2007 09:58:32 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 19:46:46
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| I wonder if you accidentally switched the abilities for Acrobatics and Athletics... |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 07:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
I really like the idea of condensing the skill lists.
Iron Heroes, a Sword and Sorcery product from Monte Cook, may be something you'd be interested in. Skills play a much more vital role in IH than they do in D&D, and to emphasize this, PCs have a lot more options when it comes to skill selection. Most notably, this comes in the form of skill groups.
A skill group is a collection of skills that are closely related in terms of their use, the training needed to master them, or some other factor. If you spend 1 skill point on a skill group as a whole, you gain one rank in each skill it contains. You can gain access to a skill group via your character class (or classes, if you are multiclassed). The skill group illustrates your overall training and exposure to several different abilities. It provides an efficient, easy way for you to build a character who is trained in the core skills and abilities that your class normally studies.
To elaborate on this a bit, berserkers (the IH version of the d20 barbarian) have access to the athletics skill group (which consists of climb, jump and swim). So if I put 4 points in the athletics skill group at 1st level, my character would have four ranks in climb, jump and swim.
There are 10 skill groups in Iron Heroes:
Academia: Drawing on skills that focus on applied knowledge and a mastery of obscure lore, the Academia skill group is a useful boon for characters with a high intelligence.
Skills: Appraise (Wis), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Int), and Speak Language (none).
Agility: The Agility skill group represents training in flexibility and acrobatics. Classes that rely on speed and maneuverability usually offer it.
Skills: Balance (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), and Tumble (Dex).
Athletics: This skill group includes strength-based skills. Athletics reflects a focus on physical fitness and strength.
Skills: Climb (Str), Jump (Str), and Swim (Str).
Mysticism: While Academia focuses on readilly available knowledge, the Mysticism group provides access to talents that focus on rare lore and the study and use of magic.
Skills: Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Perception: A sharp eye can spot trouble before it befalls you, while a keen ear lets you sneak up on a concealed enemy. Classes that emphasize smart tactics and awareness grant access to this useful skill group.
Skills: Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
Robbery: The Robbery skill group focuses on talents that require a fine hand for detailed work and a penchant for larceny.
Skills: Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Open Lock (Dex), and Sleight of Hand (Dex).
Social: The Social skills focus on your ability to charm others, whether you wish to extract rumours from them, trick them, or just strike up a friendly conversation.
Skills: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), and Intimidate (Cha).
Stealth: Classes that value hiding from an enemy, whether to flee an opponent or to move to ambush him, give access to the Stealth group.
Skills: Hide (Dex) and Move Silently (Dex).
Theatrics: The art of entertaining others not only can earn you a passable living, it also helps develop a variety of useful skills.
Skills: Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Perform (Cha), and Sleight of Hand (Dex).
Wilderness Lore: Many adventurers come of age in the forbidding wilds, where one's knowledge of the land draws the line between survival and death.
Skills: Handle Animal (Cha), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).
Iron Heroes doesn't have the same classes that standard d20 does, so I can't really offer you any advice as to which classes should have access to what skill groups at the moment. I will think about it, though. Oh, it may be important to note that there are no cross-class skills in Iron Heroes.
Hope that helps.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
Edited by - Ugly is the new black on 17 Sep 2007 08:27:11 |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 03:41:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
I really like the idea of condensing the skill lists.
Iron Heroes, a Sword and Sorcery product from Monte Cook, may be something you'd be interested in. Skills play a much more vital role in IH than they do in D&D, and to emphasize this, PCs have a lot more options when it comes to skill selection. Most notably, this comes in the form of skill groups.
A skill group is a collection of skills that are closely related in terms of their use, the training needed to master them, or some other factor. If you spend 1 skill point on a skill group as a whole, you gain one rank in each skill it contains. You can gain access to a skill group via your character class (or classes, if you are multiclassed). The skill group illustrates your overall training and exposure to several different abilities. It provides an efficient, easy way for you to build a character who is trained in the core skills and abilities that your class normally studies.
To elaborate on this a bit, berserkers (the IH version of the d20 barbarian) have access to the athletics skill group (which consists of climb, jump and swim). So if I put 4 points in the athletics skill group at 1st level, my character would have four ranks in climb, jump and swim.
There are 10 skill groups in Iron Heroes:
>snip<
Iron Heroes doesn't have the same classes that standard d20 does, so I can't really offer you any advice as to which classes should have access to what skill groups at the moment. I will think about it, though. Oh, it may be important to note that there are no cross-class skills in Iron Heroes.
Hope that helps.
love,
nathan.
I like the idea, although it poses its own problems, much like mine does. So, 10 skills means that a 8+intelligence character will have at least full ranks in about 2-4 skills, and be able to play with other skills. Although it does give me ideas on what skills to condense next (I love the Mysticism category). Perhaps, just perhaps, I'll take that into account. I dunno yet, but thank you very much for the input.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Warrax
Learned Scribe
Canada
128 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 15:58:19
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WRT NWN and 'Lore,' it's a video game.
It combined the Knowledge skills into 'Lore' to save space, as far as I can tell. Furthermore, from what I've seen, 'Lore' is used almost exclusively in the identification of unknown magical items, which actually has nothing to do with the Knowledge skills. Maybe I'm misusing the skill but that's all I ever found it good for. |
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3.5 Workshop: Skills
