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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Aug 2007 : 14:53:23
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With 4th edition looming, what better fun could we have than to tear apart some of the classes in 3.5 and see if we could make them work a bit better? Okay, you can probably think of a few things, but hey, it seems like fun to me.
Looking at a lot of feedback it definitely seems that the Fighter looses steam at higher levels, some people feel that the lower end iterative attacks are pointless when compared to high level opponents (and the fact that fighters often depend a lot on power attack to get their damage bonus up, making them even more pointless), and its also another class that fairly easy to jump out of to take a PrC and not feel like you missed anything in your class progression.
Taking all of that into consideration, and also looking a little at the "dead levels" articles that WOTC had up on their site, here are the ideas I had for the class.
1. For each level where the fighter does not get a bonus feat, he gains a +1 bonus to his damage for weapons that he is proficient with. While this seems like a big deal, by 20th level this comes out to +10 on damage, which isn't a major shift considering how much damage wizards and clerics can do at that level (or eve rogues with sneak attack).
2. At 6th level give the fighter "Focused Attack," which allows them to forgo their normal extra iterative attacks in exchange for doing an extra 1d6 points of damage. The restrictions here would be that the weapon must have a base damage higher that 1d6. Thus, if you don't think you will have a chance to hit with your +5 attack at 20th level, you can roll it over to a +1d6 damage instead.
The balancing point? Moreso than sneak attack, this would be abusive if you did 1d6 or less with your normal attack, especially if you are a "finesse" fighter rather than a strong one. Thus the requirement for a base weapon damage of 1d6. Theoretically you could make the extra die of damage dependant on the amount of damage the weapon does, i.e. if you give up an extra attack with a weapon doing 1d8, you get 1d6, if you give up a 1d6 attack, you gain 1d4, thus still making this useful for a halfling with a small longsword, for example.
The character is giving up his damage bonus from above, and the extra dice of damage would not figure into any criticals, but at the same time, the fighter could get some use out of his "extra" attacks that are not nearly as likely to hit.
So, those are my fighter ideas (which are pretty simple compared to some of my class modification thoughts). Any thoughts? Other suggestions? What do you think about the fighter and how it balances, and how you would fix it, if it needs it?
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 03:10:38
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Sigh... The Fighter
Okay, I liked the "dead levels idea," but...
Here's what I came up with, mind you it's ripping stuff out of Spycraft, but that's okay:
Fighters get some really quirky things in my book, let alone the lack of skill points that is unbearable in my mind. First things first, let's expand that. Perhaps create a "themed" fighter archetype. So, at 3rd level, the fighter can really start expanding on this, and gains 3 extra class skills, and one bonus skill point per level that MUST be used on these skills (this is above and beyond what they normally get). This can range from the "Stalwart Soldier" to the "Noble Warrior" (actual Aristocrat here), a "Sword Saint," among other things. I really wanted to add a knowledge skill to each one, showing that they know more about their field, but it didn't work out for them. I could go for an additional skill each, but at that point, I'd give them 2 extra skill points to spend on said skills.
Choices include (names ripped from Dragon 310's "Specialist Fighters" article by Clifford Horowitz):
Bodyguard: Gather Information, Sense Motive, Spot
Commander: Diplomacy, Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), and Sense Motive
Corsair/Pirate: Appraise, Balance, and Use Rope
Fencer/Fop: Bluff, Sense Motive, Tumble
Sword Saint/Kensai: Concentration, Sense Motive, and Tumble
Noble Warrior: Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (Nobility & royalty)
Stalwart Soldier/Shield Bearer: Balance, Concentration, Use Rope
Survivalist: Move Silently, Knowledge (Nature), Survival
Targetteer/Archer: Hide, Move Silently, Spot
Thug: Hide, Listen, Move Silently
And at level 9 and 15 they get a bonus ability (using those from the article in Dragon 310, I'll not post here, as those are well within copyrights I don't want to violate). We'll just call it "Focus Ability." The Focus abilities can make them better at their combat type, or can act as a buff to other party members. The Kensai, for example, gets something like a Monk's flurry of blows ability (but NOT exactly like it) with his chosen weapons. A bodyguard acts in many ways like the bodyguard PrC from Sword & Fist, while a Commander can do things with the Aid another action that no other character can do.
This, in addition to the other "dead level" ability makes them fairly good at combat, and removes any dead levels whatsoever.
Here we go:
1. Feat
2. Feat
3. Focus Skills
4. Feat
5. +1 Damage
6. Feat, Focused Attack (Scaled to damage type, I liked that)
7. +2 Damage
8. Feat
9. Focus Ability
10. Feat
11. +3 Damage
12. Feat
13. +4 Damage
14. Feat
15. Focus Ability
16. Feat
17. +5 Damage
18. Feat
19. +6 Damage
20. Feat
So, a Double-Specialized fighter does +10 damage, and other goodies as per whatever, in addition to having a thematic skill or two, and other goodies makes it not only a viable option, but one I feel will add to the roleplaying aspects of a fighter. I think a lot of Roy from OotS, an intelligent fighter, that falls into stereotypes because of the world around him.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 01 Sep 2007 03:15:42 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 04:33:49
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| Well, as far as the skill thing goes, part of me just wants to say "screw it" and just say your max ranks in an untrained skill is 1/2 of normal, but you don't have to pay two skill points to get one rank . . . this should be a benefit to the "low skill" classes, but it doesn't let them be really good at anything, and really doesn't affect the "high skill" classes, since they get a pretty broad range of skills anyway. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 04:52:15
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| I HATE how few skill points characters get. Even Wizards kinda get the rub this way. They're smart, let 'em have the knowledge darnit! I'd argue points to give all classes at least one skill point more per class level, in some cases 2. That's another topic for another day. Oddly, I have no problem paying 2 skill points for a cross-class skill, my problem is the 1/2 the class skill max ranks. I'm very much for "you did something outside of your area of expertise, and that's a hard thing to do, but if you work hard you can be just as good as a specialist." |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 07:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Well, as far as the skill thing goes, part of me just wants to say "screw it" and just say your max ranks in an untrained skill is 1/2 of normal, but you don't have to pay two skill points to get one rank . . . this should be a benefit to the "low skill" classes, but it doesn't let them be really good at anything, and really doesn't affect the "high skill" classes, since they get a pretty broad range of skills anyway.
KEJR, I actually adapted a NWN CPG feat into a house rules feat, known as "Able Learner", that does exactly that: all cross-class skills cost 1 skill point, but are still limited to the 1/2 normal rank limit. It certainly helps characters pick up a few things outside of their expertise. And there's no reason that one couldn't have a general house rule that applies it to everyone. ~_^ |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 05:15:57
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I've done something different with the fighter, over in the "3.5 Workshop: skills thread" and I need to post that info here as well:
Fighter: 3+int modifier skills per level
Skills: Athletics, Handle Animal, Manipulate (bluff and intimidate), Ride, Swim
Each of the different arcetypes would thus give the following class skills:
Bodyguard: Negotiation, Sense Motive, Perception
Commander: Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), Negotiation, and Sense Motive
Corsair/Pirate: Acrobatics, Knowledge (appraise), and Sense Motive
Fencer/Fop: Acrobatics, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), and Sense Motive
Sword Saint/Kensai: Acrobatics, Concentration, and Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Noble Warrior: Acrobatics and Knowledge (Nobility & royalty, Local)
Stalwart Soldier/Shield Bearer: Acrobatics, Concentration, Craft (Armorsmithing)
Survivalist: Knowledge (Nature), Stealth, Survival
Targetteer/Archer: Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher, Perception, and Stealth
Thug: Knowledge (Local), Perception, and Stealth
Hmm, this could have some promise to it. Lemme know what you think
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 16:18:46
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Adding more types of fighters:
Acacian: Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth
Magewarrior: Perception, Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft
Wardancer: Acrobatics, Stealth, Perform
Just a couple of idears. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2007 : 06:22:13
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Magewarrior Special abilities:
9th Level:
"Spell Armor" the Magewarrior's Touch AC verses spells, (sp) abilities, and (su) abilities increases by an amount equal to his Intelligence modifier +5.
15th Level:
"Spell Reflector" The magewarrior may reflect any single "touch" spell back at the caster that misses him up to a spell level equal to 1/4 his fighter class level. This bonus does not stack with the benefits of Mage Armor, or any other similar effect.
I don't think either of these are gamebreaking. I think that in single combat, the magewarrior will walk all over a ray specialist. However, a "blaster" type caster will have a good time with this character option. The other thought I had for these abilities was to have something for reflex saves, but not full on evasion (which I also considered). These kind of fit what I was thinking, and really make me think of an elven Wizard 5/Fighter (Magewarrior) 9 kicking butt and taking names, and Yes, I'm taking Abjurant Champion into account.
Thoughts?
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2007 : 06:27:57
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War Dancer themes
9th level:
"Dance of Winds" Your speed increases by 10 feet per point of dexterity bonus. (Yes, this could get obscene, but still not as obscene as a Monk).
15th Level:
"Dance of Blades" You cause your opponents to lose focus and find themselves unable to battle effectively against you. Make a Manipulate (Intimidate) or Perform (dance) check, and each opponent makes a will save against that number. Each opponent who fails his save takes an attack penalty equal to the difference between the saving throw and the save DC.
thoughts?
/d
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"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 14:09:59
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| Despite a boring level 5 with no feat (and other levels like that) I still thank 3.X for making Fighters more interesting thatn 2E. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 03:31:39
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Alisttair,
I agree completely. It's quite a thought to "improve" upon somethingn that is solid, but trying those improvements to help all parts of the game when adding other classes.
The only part of the 3.5 that bothered me was the lack of skill points, so making a "diplomat" type fighter was hard. Other things of that nature are very minor, IMO. It did not and does not make a core fighter less viable to me. I just want something that keeps up, so to speak, with the stuff in the "complete" series.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Warrax
Learned Scribe
Canada
128 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 15:59:52
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Of primary consideration should be the comparative power of the fighter to a wizard or cleric at high levels.
A 20th level caster versus a tank is pretty much a suicide attempt for the fighter by the nature of the class. If we're to 'improve' the class, it needs something that helps mitigate the power of a wizard. That generally implies spell-turning, spell resistance, etc.
Otherwise, you can make a really fantastic fighter char and he'll be a nice pile of ash. |
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3.5 Workshop: Fighter Modifications
