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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 01:07:41
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| Hmmm... I'm hopeful that this will mean both Midnight and Castlemourn will continue to be supported by future GSL products. Tha this, depending upon the decisions made by both MWP and FFG on whether or not to acquire the license. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 01:59:53
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I'm just wondering what the impetus is for companies to switch to 4e now. Because it's FREE? 
3e works fine, and AFAIK, there will be more then enough people sticking with it to support all those 3rd-party companies.
I just dont understand the need to 'upgrade' when the only thing it accomplishes is to render all of your current books useless.
I'd also like to know what happens to the $10,000 that Paizo shelled out and thus-far got NOTHING for, and the very thing they were paying for will now be free to everyone. 
I think this is a desperate tactic on their part, because developers were unwilling to pay to come over to 'the Dark Side'. They wanted people to pay for it, and NOW they change their minds, after Paizo (the only company that DID pay) has opted to keep pathfindere 3e.
If they were as confident as all those back-slapping podcasts make them out to be, they wouldn't be doing this. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 02:17:27
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| Paizo, or any other company, never paid for any of the 4e material and WOTC has said this over on ENWorld because the 4e material was delayed until this announcement. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2008 02:27:49 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 12:01:10
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Seen it, Read it, Cried my self to sleep over it.  |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 12:32:14
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Have any of you seen this compilation of 4E preview stuff from enworld. It is provided in a nice PDF format.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/4e_PrRC_v2.0.pdf
Really don't know what I shall make of this! [big sigh] |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 07:13:43
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quote:
Originally posted by DestroyYouAlot
Hi, folks,
Which brings me to something I've wanted to see for a long time, around here: What are the odds that we can get some edition-specific forums at Candlekeep?
I second this motion. Frankly, I'm not eager to talk with people who think making hundreds (and for some, thousands) of dollars worth of fluff material useless is something to be happy about. I sincerely hope that WOTC goes bankrupt, and the FR license is sold to a company that pretends 4e never happened (like the second episode of Highlander!) |
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Cyria
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 09:38:20
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| The whole GSL situation is a mess of delays and insufficient information. There's a lot of talk about unexpected restrictions: you could lose your right to publish 4E if you continue OGL, which could be bad for publishers who have their own non-D&D OGL products like Mutants and Masterminds. It's looking rather "Update or be damned, or be damned even if you update" to me. |
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Herr Doktor
Seeker
52 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 16:18:00
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From EnWorld
The Gamer Dome has a Forgotten Realms scoop from the GAMA trade show:
Forgotten Realms 4e is three books, period, done, end of line: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Player’s Guide to FR, and DM’s Guide to FR. All settings will be done like that, one per year, until they run out of settings. They mentioned Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer as settings on their list! Eberron, of course, is the ‘09 setting release (same three books), but it will also get DDI updates starting in June.
Later it was cleared up that the three books are Player's Guide, Campaign Guide, and the adventure. That's it. The whole of what they intend to publish for 4th edition FR apparently!
People are speculating they'll have web articles on their online dungeon/dragon magazines that support the setting but otherwise no other source books. |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 03:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
quote:
Originally posted by DestroyYouAlot
Hi, folks,
Which brings me to something I've wanted to see for a long time, around here: What are the odds that we can get some edition-specific forums at Candlekeep?
I second this motion. Frankly, I'm not eager to talk with people who think making hundreds (and for some, thousands) of dollars worth of fluff material useless is something to be happy about. I sincerely hope that WOTC goes bankrupt, and the FR license is sold to a company that pretends 4e never happened (like the second episode of Highlander!)
Well, this is a 4E Discussion Scroll, and while not an actual Forum, it is version-specific. I keep hoping to find some topics that actually discuss possibilities and "what if's" instead of all the rants against WotC and 4E FR.
As someone who owns a great deal of the "fluff material", I consider none of it useless and am already working out ways to utilize it in the upcoming campaign.
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 07:24:28
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quote:
As someone who owns a great deal of the "fluff material"
Good for you, too bad you will never be able to get any more new material for the REAL Forgotten Realms. However irrational it is for me to feel this way about a fantasy game, campaigning within or vicariously following the development of a setting that is utterly doomed just seems pointless and depressing. I hope I overcome this feeling, but for me, WOTC/Hasbro has essentially deprived me of one of my favorite pleasures in life. My enjoyment is handicapped by associated feelings of depression and rage. I eventually got over similar feelings regarding Planescape, but the sheer economic necessity of that move by WOTC alleviated my feelings of frustrated anger: In this instance, the designers are making completely unnecessary, radical, and unpleasant changes to a setting that is manifestly unsuited for the whole "points of light" concept; if I wanted that simplistic a theme, I could just play on a homebrew world.
Also, circumstances in my life have been such that I have just recently had the opportunity to thoroughly investigate Fourth Edition; this is all still pretty raw for me. For what its worth, I now realize that saying I do not wish to talk with "people like you" represented a momentary state of spite, and was uncalled for. I should not have taken my frustrations out on you (the actual designers are another matter),and I apologize for doing so. |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 15:40:01
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
quote:
As someone who owns a great deal of the "fluff material"
Good for you, too bad you will never be able to get any more new material for the REAL Forgotten Realms.
I admit a great deal of nervousness about the state of the game. While I'm excited to see the new FRCG, I'm still weighing the pros and cons of moving to the new Realms for a campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
In this instance, the designers are making completely unnecessary, radical, and unpleasant changes to a setting that is manifestly unsuited for the whole "points of light" concept; if I wanted that simplistic a theme, I could just play on a homebrew world.
As Rinonalyrna pointed out in another thread, the Realms has the "points of light" concept already. She cited Waterdeep and Silverymoon at least as examples, and I agree wholeheartedly. Then she commented on how the points of light were brought closer together when they shrunk the map...
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
Also, circumstances in my life have been such that I have just recently had the opportunity to thoroughly investigate Fourth Edition; this is all still pretty raw for me. For what its worth, I now realize that saying I do not wish to talk with "people like you" represented a momentary state of spite, and was uncalled for. I should not have taken my frustrations out on you (the actual designers are another matter),and I apologize for doing so.
I accept your apology and empathize with hindering circumstances. I too came in late to investigating 4E, and while enlightened by the scholars here, I still remain cautiously optimistic.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 16:06:15
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I published an EXTENSIVE list of FR regions and how the "Points of Light" already applied to them WAY BACK when the announcement was first made. For example, Cormyr has the Stonelands, Stormhorns, Vast Swamp, etc...
EVERY part of FR had its 'Points of Light', and traveling between them was ALWAYS difficult, and in some areas (Anauroch), nearly impossible.
There was NO problem with FR - just the Writers/Designers perception of it.
I also pointed out how they created the problem with the maps by 'shrinking' them for 3e, back in that same post. I have no idea where to look for it now (or even which forum its on), but my own personal 'intimacey' with the maps got me outraged that they could have been so blind to what FR was already about.
ALL of 3e's 'problems' are either 'made-up' or exagerrated by the current team in order to cover their own faults (bungling?) of the setting, and complete lack of understanding of it. Two books (without a logo!!!) and an adventure are NOT a 'setting', and the pitiful DDi is the furthest thing from Dragon magazine I have ever seen - if thats where they plan on 'highlighting' FR lore, God help us all.
The Zhent Headless Horsemen? 
4e rules, as much as I want to hate them, still sound very good to me, and I still plan on giving them a try (along with Paizo and Malhavoc's offerings).
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Paizo, or any other company, never paid for any of the 4e material and WOTC has said this over on ENWorld because the 4e material was delayed until this announcement.
Well, then I guess the people over at the Paizo boards are lying.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2008 21:33:53 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 16:16:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
As Rinonalyrna pointed out in another thread, the Realms has the "points of light" concept already. She cited Waterdeep and Silverymoon at least as examples, and I agree wholeheartedly. Then she commented on how the points of light were brought closer together when they shrunk the map...
Right, the Realms map had tons trackless wilderness (great for a points of light setting) until 3E, when WotC trimmed down the map, cutting away a lot of the "empty space". So, if it's true that travel is too easy and the setting has become too congested, then WotC played a big part in making it that way. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Apr 2008 16:17:19 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 16:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Paizo, or any other company, never paid for any of the 4e material and WOTC has said this over on ENWorld because the 4e material was delayed until this announcement.
Well, then I guess the people over at the Paizo boards are lying.
What "people"? They couldn't pay for something that didn't exist so who are these "people" you are talking about? The WOTC manager, who is a member of the group that is working on the GSL, has said no one paid for anything because it didn't exist to be paid for. Now, I know WOTC has a lot of people upset, but I'm going to believe that he knows what he is talking about.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4170195&postcount=21
And here's an even recent post from Scott at Gama, which took place this week, where he backs up what he said on ENworld at the beginning of April. It's halfway down the interview:
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12449.html
Plus, where did the 10,000 come from? The fee, if there was going to be a fee, was only 5,000, again according to WOTC.
So, I dunno who is misinformed here but I for one am going to believe that Scott knows what he is talking about. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Apr 2008 18:02:30 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 16:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Right, the Realms map had tons trackless wilderness (great for a points of light setting) until 3E, when WotC trimmed down the map, cutting away a lot of the "empty space". So, if it's true that travel is too easy and the setting has become too congested, then WotC played a big part in making it that way.
Yep, but even the 3E map left plenty to explore, develop, etc. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 17:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Paizo, or any other company, never paid for any of the 4e material and WOTC has said this over on ENWorld because the 4e material was delayed until this announcement.
Well, then I guess the people over at the Paizo boards are lying.
What "people"? They couldn't pay for something that didn't exist so who are these "people" you are talking about? The WOTC manager, who is a member of the group that is working on the GSL, has said no one paid for anything because it didn't exist to be paid for. Now, I WOTC has a lot of people upset, but I'm going to believe that he knows what he is talking about.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4170195&postcount=21
And here's an even recent post from Scott at Gama, which took place this week, where he backs up what he said on ENworld at the beginning of April. It's halfway down the interview:
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12449.html
Plus, where did the 10,000 come from? The fee, if there was going to be a fee, was only 5,000, again according to WOTC.
So, I dunno who is misinformed here but I for one am going to believe that Scott knows what he is talking about.
I'll look for it on Paizo's site, but one of the guys (I'm thinking it was James Jacobs, but I could be wrong), had clarified that they told WOTC they were interested in paying the $5000, and were on the list to see the rules and the GSL, but when the original plan evaporated, they never had to pay the $5000.
So the guys at Paizo did clarify that no money changed hands over this. I'll try to find one of the posts where they point this out. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 18:01:21
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Now I can firmly believe that Paizo was on the list for a advanced copy and it seems reasonable that they were willing to pay but that is a lot different then saying that they HAD already paid either the 5k or the 10k for something that didn't exist when we are hearing differently. :)
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'll look for it on Paizo's site, but one of the guys (I'm thinking it was James Jacobs, but I could be wrong), had clarified that they told WOTC they were interested in paying the $5000, and were on the list to see the rules and the GSL, but when the original plan evaporated, they never had to pay the $5000.
So the guys at Paizo did clarify that no money changed hands over this. I'll try to find one of the posts where they point this out.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 20:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
As Rinonalyrna pointed out in another thread, the Realms has the "points of light" concept already. She cited Waterdeep and Silverymoon at least as examples, and I agree wholeheartedly. Then she commented on how the points of light were brought closer together when they shrunk the map...
Good point, but I got the distinct impression that the designers meant for the "points of light" concept to include even fewer small towns around the major cities (which is an economic impossibility if these cities are truly meant to be bastions of civilization). The old map of the Realms had many more empty areas, but there were also dispersed concentrations of civilization in the form of nations and allied city-states and not just isolated cities separated by extremely dangerous and lightly traveled routes. I picture the whole "points of light" thing to essentially resemble Underdark conditions on the surface-possibly a misunderstanding on my part. Of course, I'm a political science junkie, so the political aspects (nations forming, splintering, expanding, or changing) were the aspects of the Realms that I paid the most attention to. For example, I would literally spend hours wondering how Lapaliiya could overcome centrifugal domestic conditions and consolidate into an imperialistic regional power. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 21:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
Good point, but I got the distinct impression that the designers meant for the "points of light" concept to include even fewer small towns around the major cities (which is an economic impossibility if these cities are truly meant to be bastions of civilization). The old map of the Realms had many more empty areas, but there were also dispersed concentrations of civilization in the form of nations and allied city-states and not just isolated cities separated by extremely dangerous and lightly traveled routes.
You aren't wrong here--that (isolated cities separated by extremely dangerous and lightly traveled routes) is the atmosphere they are going for in the regular 4E "core setting." I would agree that such a setup wouldn't work well for the Realms.
However, I also disagree with the designers when they say that the Realms was too developed and travel was too easy when that was never the case. If those really were problems, WotC helped create them, by cutting down the map and demystifing travel via portals.
From what I hear, WotC is trying to make the Realms more "points of life", though not as POL as the core setting is going to be. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Apr 2008 21:11:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 21:40:54
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@Kuje - I stand corrected. I was under the impresion that Paizo had paid for an 'advanced copy' of the rules, so that they could have something ready by Gameday. This was from things said at both Paizo and Enworld some time ago. From what I understood, ONLY Paizo was willing to pay the fee (and did), but obviously that information was reported incorrectly.
My apologies.
As far as the 3e maps are concerned, there was still plenty of room for the Points of Light, as I have so many times pointed out. I spent quite a lot of time retro-fitting locales back onto the 3e maps, and there was still hundreds of miles between some places (like in the Shaar), and we had great areas like Anauroch, The Ruarin, and the Calim deserts to place 'lost ruins' in, far from civilized areas.
And the North was NEVER tame, despite what the designers may have believed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 22:38:51
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No worries. :) I was just surprised if that was true because of what WOTC was saying was different. So, it happens and no worries. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Kuje - I stand corrected. I was under the impresion that Paizo had paid for an 'advanced copy' of the rules, so that they could have something ready by Gameday. This was from things said at both Paizo and Enworld some time ago. From what I understood, ONLY Paizo was willing to pay the fee (and did), but obviously that information was reported incorrectly.
My apologies.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 23:18:49
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I've always ran the Realms as a "points of light".
The ONLY time that this can be a stretch is in a nation like Cormyr or Turmish, countries that are pretty well tamed. That doesn't mean you're safe though, there are still bandits, swindlers, etc but you aren't going to meet any concentrations of long established surface monsters (plenty of room for underdark stuff though, PLENTY).
I just sort of balk at the concept of Realmsian travel being remotely safe. A handful of places, a small handful at that.
And heck, even the streets of Waterdeep aren't very safe, there isn't much that's really safe in the Realms (as far as PCs are concerned). |
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xmen510
Acolyte
Canada
1 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2008 : 15:38:54
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| Cormyr, After the Death Of The Dragon, is also very much indeed a reflection of the Points of Light theme for quite some time. It was not safe to travel between towns because of the Goblins and such still in the country. |
You Learn Something New Every Day! |
Edited by - xmen510 on 26 Apr 2008 15:39:33 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2008 : 16:10:22
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Forgot to post this earlier but WOTC has been adding to this daily, since it's daily artwork preview for 4e:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/artpreview |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2008 : 18:32:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
I just sort of balk at the concept of Realmsian travel being remotely safe. A handful of places, a small handful at that.
The degree of trade and material welfare portrayed in previous Realms material is inconsistent with that view; the Underdark was like that, but the portions of the surface that resembled (somewhat) a points of light theme were explicitly described as exceptional in this regard compared to the "civilized" South and Heartlands. This does not mean the latter resembled modern-day Denmark, merely that the points of light theme (as we understand its meaning) is inappropriate for the Realms. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 00:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Forgot to post this earlier but WOTC has been adding to this daily, since it's daily artwork preview for 4e:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/artpreview
Thanks--I'm interested in 4E in general, and like the artwork for it so far. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 00:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Forgot to post this earlier but WOTC has been adding to this daily, since it's daily artwork preview for 4e:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/artpreview
Thanks--I'm interested in 4E in general, and like the artwork for it so far.
No prob except it seems the WOTC site has gone fubar atm. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 05:14:47
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I really don't like 4E art so far... not WOW enough for me...  |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 06:56:08
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| Seems like a slight improvement over 3ed. art, but it does nothing for me. I actually prefer the art they had up on April 1. |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
