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Tiziano
Acolyte
Italy
36 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 18:53:01
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SiCK_Boy, what I meant (probably badly said, but English isn't my mother tongue), is that there are so many possibilities to cover healing in a game that, in my opinion, no single character needs to be confined to that, and no player needs to feel that his cleric character is useful just as a repository of healing spells, just like a fighter needs not to be the 'killer' of the group or a rogue would have no reason to feel useless if there aren't locks to pick or traps to be found.
But those archetypal roles could be a starting point for the player too, a cleric might want to get out of his temple to be an healer for the people and there find his strength , no matter his problems with the order discipline, or the 'burden' imposed to him with the gift of healing by his deity could be a step on his moral growth, or the beginning of a quest.
I really don't think that the 'everybody can do everything' is a solution for prospective players that see role-playing as strictly combat-oriented and/or 'usefulness-oriented'. |
http://www.portraitadoption.com/ |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2008 : 03:18:00
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Chris Pramas's comments on 4E from playing it at D&D Experiencequote:
The CCG style of the rules and the changes to the IP did make the game feel a lot less like D&D though, at least to me. And since the rules seem to have been tailored to provide a very particular experience, I don't think they will make as good of a base for the variety of campaign settings D&D used to see. It's pretty clear that WotC realizes this, which explains why they felt the need to advance the timeline and have an apocalyptic event in the Forgotten Realms. I don't think many of the old campaign settings will transition over without a lot of cutting, spindling, and mutilating.
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Edited by - Faraer on 07 Mar 2008 03:18:31 |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2008 : 06:03:25
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| What's IP? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2008 : 07:32:22
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Intellectual property.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2008 : 16:00:07
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| Faraer, thanks for posting that link. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2008 : 21:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Intellectual property.
I.e. the creative, fictive elements of the game, rather than the mechanics.
There are other reports of that demo game, but I linked to Chris's because I respect his work on Freeport and WFRP and he directly mentioned the Realms. |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Arkane
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 01:46:58
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I agree with most of you on anyone being able to heal themselves with "second wind". In my opinion it takes away from the game as well as clerics. If a character dies because of a bad role, than that is unfortunate. Life is hard on adventurers and part of the game is not knowing how some situations are going to turn out. I think second wind takes some of, if not all of the fear out of the players when a really good combat begins. They know that they can rely on the second wind.
I also personally like having abilities, skills, or items that can only be used once per day or more. Allowing characters to use these every encounter takes away from the strategy and carefull planning of adventuring. The players in my group know that they have to ration such skills, abilities, and items for times when they will really need them. They certainly never take them for granted with limited use.
As far as clerics go, the clerics in my group dish out a fair amount of damage and are never sitting their picking their noses waiting to heal somebody. Wizards are by far one of the most powerful classes in the game if played correctly at least in 2nd edition (even though I have a whole binder of house rules which include rules for exhaustion that are very simple). Wizards at low levels need to be careful but mid to high level ones can make a serious difference. There's nothing like casting a project image around the bend with a wizard eye spell on top of that and blasting the snot out of a room full of monsters as they attack an illusion. How many fighters can do that without risking serious injury?
Anyways, just my opinion
Matt |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 00:22:36
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| If you didn't hear, the 4e MM, DMG, PHB is at the printers and it's on target for the June release. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 00:25:07
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Looking forward to June, then.
August........ not so much.
@Faraer - Thanks for the Link. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2008 00:27:36 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 09:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If you didn't hear, the 4e MM, DMG, PHB is at the printers and it's on target for the June release.
Read it at the wizards-page and forgot about it... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:30:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If you didn't hear, the 4e MM, DMG, PHB is at the printers and it's on target for the June release.
Thanks for the info (I thought it was May). I know it irks some people (sorry, folks!), but I actually plan to buy those books. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:45:45
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| Don't bother me, Rino, it sounds like a somewhat interesting game, but from what I've gathered so far it ain't D&D...plus I got more than enough sourcematerial and rules-material to keep me happy for quite a few years |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:48:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Don't bother me, Rino, it sounds like a somewhat interesting game, but from what I've gathered so far it ain't D&D...plus I got more than enough sourcematerial and rules-material to keep me happy for quite a few years
Yeah, that seems to be true for a lot of people. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 02:22:35
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I'll gladly play the game as long as it is fun and not too cumbersome. My sole reason for playing 3.5 was that it was what was being published...and that is what most folks that want to play in the Realms were using.
Now...I'm not sure I want to play in the Realms any longer...but I'm waiting to see if the New Realms is to my liking as a new campaign setting.
If I want to keep playing in the Old Realms, then I will...the two are just that now for me: different settings.
The rules set that they are coming out with I'm sure will be an interesting game...I have no doubt that it seems very much like the old style where things were very simple; but being simple seems to perhaps be the only thing I can say for certain that they have in common until I actually get to look at the books...which I too will buy. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 02:25:31
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Raise Dead now only works on Plot Critical PCs and NPCs. If you happen to live in the gameworld and aren't one of these fortunate individuals, no Raise Deading for you:
quote:
The "PCs are special" comes out in other ways. I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I don't imagine it's a vital thing, and it's one of my favorite points: Raise Dead. In 4E, it's specifically called out that you can't raise most people from the dead. By and large, when the fates cut your thread, it's over - you are sent to whatever your final fate may be. You can only be raised if you still have an unfulfilled destiny - and as it turns out, that's something most PCs (and presumably, many major villains) happen to have. This is a HUGE thing for me in terms of dealing with the logical impact of raise dead on a civilization. I've always been bothered by the basic issue of "If raise dead exists, how do wealthy people ever die of anything except old age?" 4E gives the answer: raise dead is a divine gift that can only call back those touched by destiny; while when King Jarot is assassinated, that IS destiny. Bringing him back simply isn't an option.
Enworld link
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221877
Original Link:
http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/ (look at the March 18th post titled: 4E in Eberron, Continued
This seems to apply to all of D&D, not just Eberron from the context of his post.
Good/bad/indifferent? |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 11:58:13
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Indifferent - at least in my campaign, I've never allowed spells like "Raise Dead" to be all that common anyway |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 16:58:40
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One of the guys at my game table went up to the playtest in San Antonio the other weekend. He spoke well of the game, but it seemed liked that was cause he wanted to speak well of the game. Overall it sounded like a bunch of rubbish to me, with maybe one or two good ideas thrown in, but those ideas could easily be incorporated into 3.5.
With the advent of the daily power, I can see the game becoming more of a one battle per day event. Kinda like a hard part in a video game, hit and rest, hit and rest. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 20:26:11
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You know, that is an interesting point I had not thought of before. If your daily power is too good, don't you run the risk of encouraging the 15 minute adventuring day instead of getting rid of it?
"You know, with my daily power, I could waltz right through this place."
"Yeah, lets find a corner somewhere and wait six hours so you can cast Falcon's Glorious Cry of Disintegrating Green Fury II again."
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 20:49:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I thought daily meant 24 hr....
Nope, you get your "daily" power back after 6 hours of rest. In fact, the more I think of this, since everyone has daily powers, why wouldn't you do this, from a tactical standpoint?
"Fighter, hit him with Spinning Sword of Paralyzing Eviceration"
"Wizard, hit him with Epic Red Dragon Indigestion Flare"
"Rogue, hit him with, Everyone Else Hit You First So I'm Adding Insult to Injury . . . and then shift 15 miles away to pick us up lunch."
"Cleric, hit him with Flame Strike that Heals Anyone Looking at It That You Like."
"And I'll use my Warlord ability, Shout the Names of Special Abilities as If Its Tactically Useful, to double all of the effects of your abilities."
"That should take this guy out in one round, and when the Rogue gets back with lunch, we can take a break for six hours, go to the next room, and kill THAT kobold too!" |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 20:52:15
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Some of my thoughts on 4E:
I don't object at all to its existence: the main RPG business model requires it commercially, and creatively it's done by different people from 3E with different goals and preferences. I'm sure it will serve many people's needs better. Current versions of D&D exist and have little to gain by endless refinement (though it's sad that we never saw Gary Gygax's second edition).
I feel Wizards has messed up two of its largest potentials and responsibilities: spending significant money advertising the RPG medium to the many who've never tried it, and doing justice by the precious treasure of the Realms.
I'd happily play in a 4E game, but I don't plan to buy it or DM it. I don't think it's written for me. The evident attempt to reach out to MMORPGers but not fiction readers, the continued playing to system-mongery and rules for rules' sake, the distance from my system, setting and art likes. I sense Wizards designers, like some fans, are myopically wrapped up in rules minutiae that have close to no effect on play and certainly no relation to the wider human world. Talk of X being 'broken', Y 'sucking', all the bloody inbred geeky jargon. I play RPGs, sadly occasionally, with friends, not random games in hobby shops, so playing the newest and most popular system isn't a concern. I'm curious, but not motivated to spend the time, money and shelf space on a new ruleset just because it calls itself D&D, when I'm quite happy with 1E for Greyhawk, 2E for the Realms, not to mention non-D&D systems I like or own or am tempted by. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36896 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 21:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know if anyone posted this earlier... I just found it the other day, while cleaning out the Inbox of my secondary email account.
Missing the point entirely: Dungeons & Dragons 4.0
That was a really good article, and hits a lot of points that I wish I would have made. 
Thanks for posting that Wooly. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 21:45:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Some of my thoughts on 4E:
I don't object at all to its existence: the main RPG business model requires it commercially, and creatively it's done by different people from 3E with different goals and preferences. I'm sure it will serve many people's needs better. Current versions of D&D exist and have little to gain by endless refinement (though it's sad that we never saw Gary Gygax's second edition).
I feel Wizards has messed up two of its largest potentials and responsibilities: spending significant money advertising the RPG medium to the many who've never tried it, and doing justice by the precious treasure of the Realms.
I'd happily play in a 4E game, but I don't plan to buy it or DM it. I don't think it's written for me. The evident attempt to reach out to MMORPGers but not fiction readers, the continued playing to system-mongery and rules for rules' sake, the distance from my system, setting and art likes. I sense Wizards designers, like some fans, are myopically wrapped up in rules minutiae that have close to no effect on play and certainly no relation to the wider human world. Talk of X being 'broken', Y 'sucking', all the bloody inbred geeky jargon. I play RPGs, sadly occasionally, with friends, not random games in hobby shops, so playing the newest and most popular system isn't a concern. I'm curious, but not motivated to spend the time, money and shelf space on a new ruleset just because it calls itself D&D, when I'm quite happy with 1E for Greyhawk, 2E for the Realms, not to mention non-D&D systems I like or own or am tempted by.
You make a really good point, and one that I've been thinking about recently. Even with most of the rules in place that 4th edition has shown us thus far, if they had kept the Realms the same (perhaps with a greater emphasis on NOT blowing up various corners of it with regularity), I would have likely been on board even with some of the rules issues I have with the system.
Looking at what the Paizo folks are doing with Pathfinder, some thoughts occurred. While it seemed strange at first, they are putting out at Gazetteer and a Campaign Setting book within a few months of one another. It seems counter intuitive at first, but it makes sense.
If you just want a setting for "proper names" and a place to drop generic adventures, the Gazetteer is for you. If you want to know the details of the setting, the NPCs, the power groups, the long term plots and nuances of various cultures, that's what the Campaign Setting book is for.
I've seen people wonder what they would have done with a FRCS is they hadn't blow up the world for the new edition. I think if they had put out a "stripped down" Gazetteer for the casual FR players, and done something similar to what Paizo is doing for Pathfinder (paintings of what cities look like, uniforms for various military units, the appearance of coins, etc.) I think they would not have had a problem finding buyers for such a product.
Edit: I just wanted to point out that I don't know for sure what specifically is in the Pathfinder Campaign setting book, other than that its for the more "detail oriented" fans of the setting, but thus far they HAVE had a more unified style to art, and have had pictures for military units, cities, and famous sites in the setting.
Also, they are working with the "Campaign Coins" guys to make Golarion specific coins based on various coins used in the setting.
I wish Realms had the unified "feel" in its visual portrayal that Paizo's works seems to have had so far. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 05 Apr 2008 21:57:11 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 22:33:50
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As it stands, I'll stick to 3e/Pathfinder. The Realms are my love, and I will have one group playing there for the next couple of years (hopefully!!!). The other (my former Waterdeep) group I gave up on concerning the Realms but I will run the Rise of the Runelords path for them. Will I get the campaign setting? I dunno, what I've seen so far in terms of stuff I've read... bloody hell (!!!) it's good, and fun to read.
What I've seen for the new, cool, improved (my ass!!) gameworld/-universe for 4xs is so-so, but it is definitely not Dungeons & Dragons, well, in a literal sense it deals with both things, but it is not the game that I love.
EDIT 4e is NOT D&D!!! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
Edited by - Mace Hammerhand on 05 Apr 2008 23:31:20 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 23:28:12
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My Realms campaign is now 1378 DR, and I use GHotR as canon all the way to 1375 DR (disregarding 1376 + years).
Works for me, as the PCs are now at level 20-21, and will soon shape the world to their desire via various Powers of Faerun rulership tools.
The way WotC decided to take the Realms down to has made my decision to stop buying WotC products very easy. I needed an excuse and I got it. Now I can keep my Realms "as is", pretty much static (which is good for players at epic levels, as a constantly changing landscape makes it hard to grasp the political intricacies between their lands and the other countries surrounding them). From now on, RSEs will only be PC-generated, if present at all, as most villain-generated RSEs should be thwarted by the PCs...
Ah... breathe in, breathe out.... ahhhhh... Take in the pure, sweet-smelling air of a wonderful, fully bloomed fantasy setting that will not wilt, free of the rotting winds brought by corporate corruption...  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 02:01:43
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I thought daily meant 24 hr....
Nope, you get your "daily" power back after 6 hours of rest. In fact, the more I think of this, since everyone has daily powers, why wouldn't you do this, from a tactical standpoint?
"Fighter, hit him with Spinning Sword of Paralyzing Eviceration"
"Wizard, hit him with Epic Red Dragon Indigestion Flare"
"Rogue, hit him with, Everyone Else Hit You First So I'm Adding Insult to Injury . . . and then shift 15 miles away to pick us up lunch."
"Cleric, hit him with Flame Strike that Heals Anyone Looking at It That You Like."
"And I'll use my Warlord ability, Shout the Names of Special Abilities as If Its Tactically Useful, to double all of the effects of your abilities."
"That should take this guy out in one round, and when the Rogue gets back with lunch, we can take a break for six hours, go to the next room, and kill THAT kobold too!"
 Aside from how funny that all was, I have to admit I never even thought about what you're bring up now--how people might just rest constantly to gain their once-a-day powers back, thus circumventing one of the major goals of the 4E design principles. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 08:07:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Aside from how funny that all was, I have to admit I never even thought about what you're bring up now--how people might just rest constantly to gain their once-a-day powers back, thus circumventing one of the major goals of the 4E design principles.
Hopefully the DM in question would have enough savvy to let the 'monsters' in that dungeon also rest and regain their once-per-day powers. Or even better, attack the resting PCs before they can regain their WoMD powers.
***
On a totally different track, is it just me, or are the new 4.0 "Dungeons of Dread" minis uglier in general than previous sets? If I compare the new http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dungeons_of_Dread_Gallery/Orc_Raider.jpg with War Drum's http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/war_drums_gallery/Orc_Mauler.jpg, the latter (and indeed earlier model) is much better executed. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 23:22:52
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Surprised no one posted this yet.
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080417a
Wizards of the Coast is pleased to announce that third-party publishers will be allowed to publish products compatible with the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition game system under the new Dungeons & Dragons 4E Game System License (D&D 4E GSL). This royalty-free license will replace the former d20 System Trademark License (STL), and will have a System Reference Document (SRD) available for referencing permissible content.
The D&D 4E GSL will allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in fantasy settings with the D&D 4th Edition rules, and publishers who register with WotC will be granted the right to use a version of the D&D logo that denotes the product as compatible with the D&D 4th Edition Roleplaying Game, in accordance with WotC’s terms and conditions. The effective start date for sales of D&D 4E GSL publications will be October 1, 2008.
The license associated SRD will be available on June 6, 2008, at no cost. A small group of publishers received advanced notice and will receive these documents prior to June 6, at no cost, in order to prepare for publication of compatible materials by the effective start date. If you haven’t already been contacted by WotC, you will be able to access the documents on the Wizards website beginning on June 6, 2008.
Wizards is also working on the details of a second royalty-free license, the d20 Game System License (d20 GSL). This license will allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in non-fantasy settings with the 4E rules. The exact details for the d20 GSL will be released as they become available. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Apr 2008 23:33:20 |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
