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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 18:21:15
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The truth of the matter is that all the "crunch" that was there in 3.5 edition will creep back into 4th edition as people clamor for more and more rules (I want my seafaring rules! I want my heralding rules! I want rules for the deep desert! Etc.)
They are simplifying the core game for newbies, plain and simple. Make it easier to set up and adventure and to run an adventure. I don't see anything wrong with that per se.
What is less justifiable is the extent of the changes. Why not streamline 3.5 edition, and make the crunch optional, rather than rework the whole dang system? Pardon my extreme language, lol.
I am probably one of the few people enthusiastic about 4ed changes - but even I have to admit most of the logic they use to justify these changes just doesn't follow through.
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
Has anyone seen the D&D 4e video on yuotube? did anyone else find that a little bit insulting? "we made it easier for DM's" why does the corprate world assume we are all complete morons? do we seem like we can't understand how to DM? I mean, come on! this is borderline slander on all DM's using 3.5. "hi. we made a new addition because you couldn't possibly understand 3.5". Am I the only one that didn't just see red but saw a rainbow like in a kalidescope? I'm sorry for ranting, but it felt like they were purposely insulting my inteligence. they are going to have to dig very hard, very very fast to get out of the hole that interveiw dug for them to get me to have interest in 4E again
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2007 : 04:16:22
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Hm . . . I'm really glad none of this is going to affect my campaigns. There is another elf article here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221
If Sehinine is actually Selune . . . and her sister is Lolth . . . does this mean Lolth will be Shar? On a lighter note, this means that apparently Corellon is really close to both of his sisters . . . |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2007 : 05:28:15
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Oh Joy, Drow got the "Evil Gene" back even in FR.
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With the release of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in the summer of of '08, drow will be presented as a fully playable character race. Although drow as a race are a singularly wicked people, cruel and treacherous in their dealings with others, a smattering in every generation learn cooperation and the value of alliance. While some of these are merely cunning in their decision to gain the trust of others, a few truly come to value the positive aspects of camaraderie and friendship, sometimes even with those not of their own race.
*sighs* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 15:27:47
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
If Sehinine is actually Selune . . . and her sister is Lolth . . . does this mean Lolth will be Shar? On a lighter note, this means that apparently Corellon is really close to both of his sisters . . .
Things man were not meant to dwell on, but is anyway: 36) The sex-life of gods. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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imis999
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 19:31:45
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| I just don't get it! If you want to create a completely different setting than Classic FR, then why don't they call it something new. Why screw up FR with this nonsense? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 19:42:52
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| Again, folks, please try to remember that what applies to Core D&D Extreme will not necessarily be the case for 4E FR. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 19:57:23
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True. I've said it before and I'll say it again--all the new lore about elves (fey?) is wonderful for a custom, non-FR campaign setting.
This part creeped me out though:
quote:
The elves as a race were neither good nor evil -- they didn't think in those terms. They enjoyed beauty and pleasure, and many of them found pleasure in kindness and beauty in every facet of life, and so acted in good ways. Still, they might inflict pain or even death, not out of cruelty, but purely out of curiosity.
Ick! That just makes me think of something like "I stuck a knife in its heart just to see what would happen..." Sounds like something out of a horror movie (or a psychological thriller).
Also, the drow are mentioned as having "blank white eyes", and the accompanying picture, while quite beautifully done, also shows orbs with no pupils. Are they saying drow won't have pupils? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Dec 2007 19:58:02 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 19:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, folks, please try to remember that what applies to Core D&D Extreme will not necessarily be the case for 4E FR.
This appears it might be both core and FR, at least PC Drow come out in Realms Campaign Setting. *shrugs* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 21:06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, folks, please try to remember that what applies to Core D&D Extreme will not necessarily be the case for 4E FR.
Oh, I understand that, but I was kind of wondering about this due to the fact that Rich has said that they are leaning heavily towards Sehinine and Selune being the same goddess in FR. |
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 22:01:53
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http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/blogpost.aspx?blogpostid=30172&pagemode=2
this is bruce cordells blog posted yesterday. It mentions two realms forgotten will be forgotten no more. I wonder which two?
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“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 22:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/blogpost.aspx?blogpostid=30172&pagemode=2
this is bruce cordells blog posted yesterday. It mentions two realms forgotten will be forgotten no more. I wonder which two?
Darksun clearrly a point of light type Realm, Ravenloft clearly IMO a canidate for the same reason. Dangonlance with its events clearly could be points of Light also, but didn't they kill of all the deities in one version? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Tiziano
Acolyte
Italy
36 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 22:40:55
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Well the post says:
quote:
I'm really excited for the debut of the setting for many reasons. Here are just a few:
One, the art is going to be sick. As in, really good. I just finished compiling the art and map order Friday, and we’ve got some epic pieces planned.
Two, realms forgotten will be forgotten no more, and Ed Greenwood is personally behind that vision; who better? It is awesome.
'two' as in 'reason two', not 'two Realms'.
Although the more I read the more I feel sick (and not as in , really good).
What does it mean 'realms forgotten will be forgotten no more'? Ready to start a campaign after ten minutes after picking up the setting?
...Corellon help us! |
http://www.portraitadoption.com/ |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 02:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/blogpost.aspx?blogpostid=30172&pagemode=2
this is bruce cordells blog posted yesterday. It mentions two realms forgotten will be forgotten no more. I wonder which two?
He didn't mean that TWO realms forgotten will be forgotten no more.
He meant that that was his second point (point number two). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 24 Dec 2007 02:04:43 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 02:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiziano
What does it mean 'realms forgotten will be forgotten no more'?
I think he means that other continents will get detailed?
That would be information I might use, as long as it isn't too tied-in with the other 4E setting changes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 02:39:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I think he means that other continents will get detailed?
That would be information I might use, as long as it isn't too tied-in with the other 4E setting changes.
Part of me is concerned that these "new" continents are part of the "merging of two worlds," and thus don't exist in the current timeframe, at least not in "our" Realms. I'm also concerned that this "merging" is going to be catastrophic (as it was characterized by the Orc King prologue) because these new lands return in such as way that they supplant existing areas (Maztica, Zhakara, Kara-Tur) and basically "nuke" them.
The regions that Ed is writing could very well be how Ed would have developed those areas had TSR not dropped RW analogous settings into Toril. This, of course, presents a quandry, because if this is what they are doing, I would love to see what Ed would have done with these lands originally, but I don't like previously established parts of the setting, even ones that might have been poorly thought out when they were first introduced, to be swept away that easily.
Then again, I could be WAY off base too. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 02:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Part of me is concerned that these "new" continents are part of the "merging of two worlds," and thus don't exist in the current timeframe, at least not in "our" Realms. I'm also concerned that this "merging" is going to be catastrophic (as it was characterized by the Orc King prologue) because these new lands return in such as way that they supplant existing areas (Maztica, Zhakara, Kara-Tur) and basically "nuke" them.
Uh oh--I didn't even think of it that way, to be honest. If the results are THAT catastrophic, I most likely wouldn't want any part of it even if Ed's involved (although, I could perhaps place stuff I like onto one of the unused continents). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 03:07:23
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| I was just conjecturing . . . I took a few pieces of what was known and filled is some huge gaps with some paranoid guesses, so I wouldn't be too worried about it. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 24 Dec 2007 03:08:38 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 03:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I was just conjecturing . . . I took a few pieces of what was known and filled is some huge gaps with some paranoid guesses, so I wouldn't be too worried about it.
Right, but on the other hand you could be dead on. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 08:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
True. I've said it before and I'll say it again--all the new lore about elves (fey?) is wonderful for a custom, non-FR campaign setting.
This part creeped me out though:
quote:
The elves as a race were neither good nor evil -- they didn't think in those terms. They enjoyed beauty and pleasure, and many of them found pleasure in kindness and beauty in every facet of life, and so acted in good ways. Still, they might inflict pain or even death, not out of cruelty, but purely out of curiosity.
Ick! That just makes me think of something like "I stuck a knife in its heart just to see what would happen..." Sounds like something out of a horror movie (or a psychological thriller).
Also, the drow are mentioned as having "blank white eyes", and the accompanying picture, while quite beautifully done, also shows orbs with no pupils. Are they saying drow won't have pupils?
Well the unmalicious cruelty aspect of the elves fits well with old myths, so I have no problem with it. But not in the Realms of course.
The pure white eyes of Drow fits with some of the older art from early 2ed. I quite like the idea. Now, if they could only bring back those great mustaches to, then the Drow would look good. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 08:43:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/blogpost.aspx?blogpostid=30172&pagemode=2
this is bruce cordells blog posted yesterday. It mentions two realms forgotten will be forgotten no more. I wonder which two?
Darksun clearrly a point of light type Realm, Ravenloft clearly IMO a canidate for the same reason. Dangonlance with its events clearly could be points of Light also, but didn't they kill of all the deities in one version?
Yea the gods disappeared again for a time at the start of the 5th age, locked out by the Chaos god. They did bring them back later, with the exception of a couple of the deities. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 14:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well the unmalicious cruelty aspect of the elves fits well with old myths, so I have no problem with it. But not in the Realms of course.
I think it doesn't make sense. There are only so many times you can inflict pain (or for that matter, death) just for the sake of knowing what's going to happen next. Eventually, you know happens.
Of course, the text didn't give us any context to work with, though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11999 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 16:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Sounds like the redesign is in the hands of a few who were unable to level up quick enough and got tired of waiting to do really cool and epic things!
All I have to say is, if something is not truly earned, then it is not truly appreciated. I just hope they don't go to far. I remember the original Might & Magic on my commodore 64, it was so cool! In like 4 days my party was so powerful that we were killing black dragons and devil lords at will. 3 days or less after that I quit playing it. I had done enough high level acts that they became meaningless.
Yeah, that was something I liked about the epic handbook was that the overall power of characters began to slow down after 20. At the same time, leveling up became harder. Granted there were some flaws in the epic magic system, but other than that, it was pretty balanced. Taking out deities... that wrankles a bit. Granted though, the realms does have many instances of exactly this occurring (more recently than previously though). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11999 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 16:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Interestingly enough, according to a new article on Wizards Elves will only live to be 200 years old in 4th Edition. Instead of a long-lived, reflective race, they are now described as impulsive and taking things less seriously because they live to be 200.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221
I suppose they can explain this away with the spellplague - the magic that kept elves alive is no longer as strong, or is more wild and uncontrollable, etc. So there should not be any serious continuity problems.
But this is quite interesting to me, because I've played elven starting characters who were older than 200! In the very least it will make for some truly staggering changes to Evermeet.
Yeah, and interestingly they mature at human speed, it just takes longer for them to grow old.... so they could grow up alongside a human companion from birth till they need to start adventuring. I understand the why game-rules wise, but it does mess with flavor. Again, a question of "did you really HAVE to mess with that?" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11999 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 17:01:53
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Hm . . . I'm really glad none of this is going to affect my campaigns. There is another elf article here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221
If Sehinine is actually Selune . . . and her sister is Lolth . . . does this mean Lolth will be Shar? On a lighter note, this means that apparently Corellon is really close to both of his sisters . . .
I was thinking something along similiar lines. Will we find Shar dead and Eilistraee dead, with Lolth taking Shar's role and Sehanine seizing Eilistraee's. Then again, I also wonder about Set taking some role as a god of darkness and serpents (and who knows, he may kill off Talona since they want to reduce numbers of deities). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2007 : 06:33:16
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I read Bruce's comment a little bit differently.
"Two, realms forgotten will be forgotten no more"
I believe this harkens back to the idea that some forgotten aspect of the realms will return (whether it be aboleths, or faeries, or a whole new or unexplored concept).
Bruce was quite careful to use "Abeir-Toril" when talking about the world, and it has been pointed out that the "Abeir" has faded out of use (realms forgotten). Whatever the olde and forgotten meaning of Abeir may be (beyond simply a name), I think we are about to find out.
Btw, I think this discussion should be moved to the FR specific scroll, I posted here because that is where the topic is being discussed at present.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I was just conjecturing . . . I took a few pieces of what was known and filled is some huge gaps with some paranoid guesses, so I wouldn't be too worried about it.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2007 : 07:59:53
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It might not be an ancient empire that Bruce is talking about. Kara-Tur and Zakhara will see some new coverage as I understand and one might therefore say that they return form the forgotten.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well the unmalicious cruelty aspect of the elves fits well with old myths, so I have no problem with it. But not in the Realms of course.
I think it doesn't make sense. There are only so many times you can inflict pain (or for that matter, death) just for the sake of knowing what's going to happen next. Eventually, you know happens.
Of course, the text didn't give us any context to work with, though.
True, but I never said that it was a constant motivation; I am talking about a combination of allmost childish whimsy and a different understanding of the world. More like the way the nymph has allways been represented in the game.
A creature being repetetivly cruel or gaining pleasure from the pain it inflicted wouldbe another story. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2007 : 13:14:38
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| well ... yeah ... should maybe be spilted into another scroll ... or moved into the existing FR scroll ... but i would really like that the 'forgotten realm' that is hinted to be Abeir (whichever that might be) is Farie ... i seem to remember that many (if not all) of the polls and the like around asking about what people would like that more Fey came in close to the top |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2007 : 15:27:00
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| Stardeep by Bruce Cordell draws the distinction between Abeir-Toril and Toril. A-T is the time of the aboleth and similar "oozy evils". |
Best
E |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 22:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
True, but I never said that it was a constant motivation; I am talking about a combination of allmost childish whimsy and a different understanding of the world. More like the way the nymph has allways been represented in the game.
A creature being repetetivly cruel or gaining pleasure from the pain it inflicted wouldbe another story.
Understood. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 22:10:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
Stardeep by Bruce Cordell draws the distinction between Abeir-Toril and Toril. A-T is the time of the aboleth and similar "oozy evils".
Note that the novel Stardeep doesn't tell us anything about what Abeir actually IS, though.
Regardless of what's going to be done with the official Realms, to me "Abeir" will always be nothing more than the first part of a full name that's been shortened over time simply for ease of use (not because "Abeir" is distinct from "Toril"--I think that idea is a bit dumb, sorry). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Dec 2007 22:12:17 |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
