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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 08:25:04
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A few cents of wisdom on the Design & Development articles of these past weeks.
Hmm... I can understand the need to differentiate both types of fiends a little more... and the background stories of devils and demons, if not at all original, are actually tolerable and fit into the mood change. However, the past of every setting known to D&D was built around the same generic concept of the core rules. With 4e the core comes with fresh history. Are we now to impose a different background just to accomodate the new 4e core? It certainly doesn't seem right to do it.
Perhaps designers should only apply the new race mechanics and leave the reasons to be figure out in each setting.
Regarding encounter design, I see where they are headed to, and while I kinda like it, it can be drawn from the article by Mike Mearls that the real innovation the new system will introduce into the equation of encounter design is something obvious: the environment. Still it is something that should have been done a long time ago. Apart from that, all the rest seems plain make-up into what already existed. So now we won't pick a single monster because enconter design is now based in groups of monsters... Ok. I do grant that calculating an encounter CR using 3.5 rules would take longer than what's predicted with 4e, with all those fractions and such. Still, 4e simply made the calculations easier by considering monster CR equal to character CR. The math remains the same! It is a little annoying that more old stuff is being sold as a novelty.
I like the idea of PC roles, at least as long as the rules are flexible enough to accomodate ANY character class into the role of "leader". Or is this just another shiny name for the support function of certain classes?
And what about dungeon design? I really fail to see the "The 4E Way: Monsters, Monsters, Monsters!"
Geez!! Haven't we all being doing that for years? Most probably, the problem is not in the monsters but in the dungeon itself. Of course corridors are small. That's why they're called corridors. The chosen portion of the example dungeon given in the article is a good example, and quite a common occurrence. It takes PCs from nowhere to no place at all. Of course, GMs will need to be resourceful to come up with something witty and more challenging than facing one foe at a time. Now a question: Since when did this become the "4e Way"? Hasn't it always been, even though implicitly, the "D&D Way"? To me this is just a little more of the marketing make-up they're applying to 4e. What I see is the need to offer "Populating Dungeons 101" as part of the new core rules.
Concerning the "Points of Light" theme, I strongly believe that is an aspect of the game that should well be left to be designed into each setting separately. Each world, realm, planet, plane and setting has its own flavour that appeal to differente player tastes. Applying the same rule to all settings equally is like a cook who throws all ingredients of five diferent dishes into a single pan. When he finally serves that new "recipe" to five different customers, all dishes will certainly taste the same.
Races, races... This gives me shivers down my spine. Not only many disclosed changes are completely unnecessary but, again, said changes should be treated at the setting level of design and development.
And as I said in a previous post, I really like the idea of "implements" as boosters and modifiers of spellcasters magic capacities. However, restricting such "implements" to certain subclasses, schools, trends, orders or traditions (whatever one prefers to call them), seems a shot on one's own foot and absolutely against the always greater variability we should look for in spellcasters.
The power source of every class is one of the few really innovative and interesting ideas 4e will be stuffed with. Not only it will eliminate the infamous "dead levels" but it has a chance of bringing more flavour to each PC.
One last thing I'd like to say. WotC states that we should:
"Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our (their) design and development staff. You’re (we're) getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress (...)".
It just sounds very strange to me that anything "not thouroughly discussed by R&D" or "still undeveloped" would be disclosed with the degree of certainty all articles were presented to us. I firmly believe that what's already been disclosed has already been written on stone.
One thing is certain, though: The game is really in a state of flux. We, the gamers, keep the game that way. After all, whithout gamers there's no flux and no game at all. Hope they let us keep our good performance at the table. |
Edited by - Thauglor on 25 Sep 2007 08:35:15 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 17:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
3. When 3.5 came out two years after 3.0, a designer of 3.0 said that WotC screwed up the 5 year plan...
I knew it! WotC are a bunch of communists!! |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 18:32:26
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| Communists only interested in the money! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
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mgrilla
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 10:01:35
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| For myself, i doubt i will buy anything right away. i have wayyyyyy too much money invested in 3.5e books so i will hold off until someone else takes the plunge then check out THEIR books lol |
"Did my area effect spell wipe out your army?" "No, but the DM is really annoyed he has to subtract 6 HP off 200 guys!" |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 11:13:49
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Is anyone else getting a bit tired from being repeatedly bombarded with such words as "COOL", "BEST", "ROCKS", "FASTER", "EASY"? I know that they're marketing 4E to gamers half my age, but sheesh... oh, wait... silly me, I seemed to forget that those words describe exactly how D&D should feel!  (if you don't believe me, just ask Chris Thomasson!  )
EDIT: I wanted to add that it's also a bit funny when they are clearly making an effort to convince the "old skool" fans that they (WoTC designers) are all long-time gamers, too -- you can see numerous references to previous editions and their own characters in the Staff Blogs. Add those "keywords" mentioned above randomly into more "serious-natured" phrases and you've got a really messed-up piece of text that seems to be cooperatively written by two different people of radically different ages!  
This is from Chris Thomasson's Blog:
quote:
Last thought: Today's playtest made me realize something. Our design, development, and editing teams rock. I've played every iteration of 4th Edition. I can easily say, this is the best, by far. Every class did something cool, on every round. And each class approached the game in a different way. The paladin was exacting divine retribution, the ranger was blasting the crap out of stuff with his bow, and the wizard was blowing bad guys up with very cool spells (and that damn sleep spell). It felt just like D&D should. Oh, and the monster stat blocks? Cake. My round to round management was incredibly easy, and each monster had something interesting to do, without burdening me with useless information.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
Edited by - Asgetrion on 26 Sep 2007 11:33:36 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 12:20:54
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Weill, I think if we have picked up one thing, its that everything in 4th edition is interesting. Every round. Always interesting. And cool. And it rocks. In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that its interesting how cool it is that 4th edition rocks.
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Tiziano
Acolyte
Italy
36 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 13:06:40
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This is the kind of marketing pitch that makes me want to start a second ed. campaign right on the spot, or, (depending how pessimistic I feel) play only World of Darkness games from now on.
P.S. 'Cool' should be a banned word... |
http://www.portraitadoption.com/ |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 14:34:42
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To quote anyone who's facing a foe they feel is too much:
"I disbelieve 4e."
If you ooze with easy & cool, great. But remember, those things that are easy tend to be short-term things at best.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 14:46:02
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| what's the Will save for Disbelieving 4e? |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 15:47:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
If you ooze with easy & cool, great. But remember, those things that are easy tend to be short-term things at best./d
My thoughts exactly. Once you get used to the "cool" mechanics, probably bored of simple "divine retribution", "blasting the crap out of stuff with a bow" and "blowing bad guys up with very cool spells", you'll go out for more.
It seems they've narrowed the classes to only what they think is cool. Additional aspects of the game mechanics which'd give more depth are either not mentioned or completely left out.
And the sentence "It felt just like D&D should"... well... it gives me the creeps. So now, after more than two decades on the road (counting TSR) they DO know how D&D should feel?
It's about time they did figure it out. But why do I find it harder and harder to believe? |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 17:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauglor
It seems they've narrowed the classes to only what they think is cool. Additional aspects of the game mechanics which'd give more depth are either not mentioned or completely left out.
Of course, for they want you to play quote:
without burdening me with useless information.
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"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 17:43:55
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| I know how D&D should feel for my personal taste, the books had TSR written on them. There is something about terms like "cool" and "rocks" that emidiatly turns me of. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 21:25:22
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Maybe the gaming community is in need of some additional 3.5e feats before it is too late:
- Crush Cool
- Ridicule Rocks
- Evaporate Easy
- Forget Faster
- Bedevil Best
- Wither WotC
edit: I forgot the new WotC staffer mandatory feats:
- Respect Roleplaying
- 4get 4e |
Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 26 Sep 2007 21:29:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 22:53:33
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I posted this in the ToT 2.0 thread, but I thought it should go here as well.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a
Feywild? Can the return of the Fey creator race (Le'Shay) be far behind? 
@Gray - the Shadowfell sounds exactly like what you and I came up with awhile back when discussing the Shadoworld as a possible dark alternate to reality. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Sep 2007 23:11:15 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 22:56:02
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The article on the new D&D Cosmology is here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a
So basically, no more Outlands, no more Etherial, no more traditional Inner Planes, Limbo essentially become THE elemental plane, which turns into the Abyss at one end, Faerie turns into the "happy" version of the Plane of Shadows, the Plane of Shadows kills off the negative energy plane and takes its stuff, and all of the outer planes are just "domains" floating in the astral.
Its the SAME GAME . . . except when its not.
Edit: Markustay beat me to it . . . |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 26 Sep 2007 22:56:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 23:13:02
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Sorry... 
Its just that we are all so eager to see what the future has in store.
I must say - this does not sound all that bad. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 23:22:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sorry...
Its just that we are all so eager to see what the future has in store.
I must say - this does not sound all that bad.
Probably because they inoculated us to planar changes a whole new edition early |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 23:25:13
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On a more serious note, if it were a brand new cosmology, I would like most of it. I don't really like the "redefined" older planes, and if they introduce this to the Realms, then its another "Its always been this way" moment, which isn't pleasant.
I like most of it, except for the whole Abyss being connected to Limbo . . . er . . . the Elemental Tempsest/Chaos/Conflagration/Morass. I don't get how elemental=demons, but hey, it isn't as bad as it could have been.
I do wonder, if this gets adopted for the Realms, what this would mean for Kelemvor though. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 00:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
what's the Will save for Disbelieving 4e?
DC 532
Okay, epic spell seeds, plus requiring the sacrifice of at least 7 deities...
Spellcraft DC 36915 (Epic seeds Afflict, Banish, Compel, Conceal, Delude, Destroy, Dispel, Energay Slay, Summon, Transform, & Transport). Epic DC 60, + Intelligence modifier for spellcaster (epic levels assumed +10 DC), infused with deific essence, +52 DC each, at least 7 deities dead: Final DC 354
Okay, that's a little obsessive...
But it was a fun exercise.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 27 Sep 2007 02:16:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 01:53:58
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I like most of it, except for the whole Abyss being connected to Limbo . . . er . . . the Elemental Tempsest/Chaos/Conflagration/Morass. I don't get how elemental=demons, but hey, it isn't as bad as it could have been.
Agreed.
That part threw me as well. I like that they are giving further seperation between the two major fiendish races, but what in god's name does that have to do with elementals? 
Does that mean genies will just be another type of fiend in 4e? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 02:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Agreed.
That part threw me as well. I like that they are giving further seperation between the two major fiendish races, but what in god's name does that have to do with elementals?
Does that mean genies will just be another type of fiend in 4e?
No, but Slaadi will be a fiend, not just a CN exemplar. They started doing that with D&D miniatures, and I think they will probably follow through with that.
I am a huge fan of the great wheel. This feels... unnatural . Throwing out what has come before seems silly to me, but then again I'm not the target audience.
I don't particularly care for Fiend=Elemental. And the whole idea of all genies being fiends makes no sense to me. Ooh, wait, maybe jann will be from Feywild... Ick.
I could rant... a lot... grr, I'll shut up now.
/d
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 08:33:49
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I not think that the switch to 4ed was entirely motivated by profit.
Wizards is trying to address, perhaps in a very heavy handed way, real deficiencies in the game design. The game as it stands today is just too complex. Veterans like us have no problem with it, but it does impede gameplay and it is intimidating to learn for new players.
I do not agree with all the decisions they have made so far, but I feel really compelled to write in their defense.
When I was 10 years old, a few decades ago, I picked up a Monster Manual in the hobby store not even knowing what it was. It was a book full of nothing but monsters - that was so cool!!!
A year later I picked up the 1st edition PhB. The rules, other than AC/THACO were simple-dumb.
"I know how powerful that monster is because it has a certain number of hit dice"
"Hey, look, I can be any of these well-defined classes"
"I need XX strength to arm wrestle a stone giant and bend the bars on that annoying portcullis"
I started playing with a few friends, and DnD turned into a lifelong, on/off again hobby. I doubt any 10 year old today could pick up a 3.5 Edition PhB and be engrossed by its simple gameplay.
Now, I am not saying 4ed should be a kiddie game. 1st Edition was far from a kiddie game, I remember reading stats for Lucifer in a Dragon magazine around that time, and assassins were down right nasty.
You can make an adult game that is fun to play, and that I think is at the core of what they are doing. Optional rules will come for game mechanic nuts I am sure. The game be as rich or as simple as you like.
Of course the consequences of these changes are severe, but at least in the Realms it looks as though they are going to explain the changes with the spellplague, and the destruction of Mystra's realm re-aligning the planes. There appears to be no retconning, they will keep the history that we love.
It doesn't change the past all that much, does it matter precisely where hell is located, floating in the Astral plane or sticking out of the Concordant whatever like a pinwheel?
Not really in terms of story. Devils still come from hell, demons still come from the abyss, and there are infinite planes floating around the astral sea apparently, so Gehenna is in there somewhere and all the Realms stories involving Yugoloths will still hold true.
The Realms will endure. We are saddened to hear of the passing of our favorite deities, the diminishing of our favorite races in what seems like a senseless act. But really, so long as they portray Mystra's last stand as heroic and giver her a proper farewell, I will be content. It fits with the character of Midnight from the ToT.
Not only does it appear that they are going out of their way not to disrupt ongoing campaigns (you have at least 10 years of Realms time to muck around) but also to explain the changes as well as possible.
I for one think it will be worth it if it helps attract a new generation of gamer and makes my tabletop game more fun. Maybe some other kid will pick up a book because of the cool cover and discover a whole new world of adventure. It is corny, but that is how I feel about it. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 12:37:04
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| These articles are detailing changes which are made for core D&D - if they will affect the FR is not sure yet. As far as I know, the core setting (Greyhawk) is not as detailed as FR, and so changes to the Great Wheel may be much easier. But if they will be translated 1:1 to the FR is not sure. Since the official FR do not share the same cosmology with core (no great wheel, but a great tree), I hope very much that not all of theses chances will be translated to FR - or at least in a way consistent to FR of today. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 12:53:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
I not think that the switch to 4ed was entirely motivated by profit.
Wizards is trying to address, perhaps in a very heavy handed way, real deficiencies in the game design. The game as it stands today is just too complex. Veterans like us have no problem with it, but it does impede gameplay and it is intimidating to learn for new players.
*SNIP*
Now, I am not saying 4ed should be a kiddie game. 1st Edition was far from a kiddie game, I remember reading stats for Lucifer in a Dragon magazine around that time, and assassins were down right nasty.
You can make an adult game that is fun to play, and that I think is at the core of what they are doing. Optional rules will come for game mechanic nuts I am sure. The game be as rich or as simple as you like.
Of course the consequences of these changes are severe, but at least in the Realms it looks as though they are going to explain the changes with the spellplague, and the destruction of Mystra's realm re-aligning the planes. There appears to be no retconning, they will keep the history that we love.
I see nothing logical or consistent (with previously published Realmslore) in the explanations offered so far. Can you *really* claim that after reading the last entries in the Grand History of the Realms? (if you haven't, there're several threads here on Candlekeep that deal with those "explanations").
As for the 4E mechanics -- so far we've only seen tidbits about heavily "flavoured" and "powered-up" character classes. Not are they only determining 'roles' -- they're also limiting your character creation options by defining class abilities/features in a very restricted and "combat-focused" manner. For example, you *cannot* create a "non-combatant" wizard or probably even a dex-based fighter (and speaking of WoTC not doing this for profit -- I was told that Diviners, Necromancers et al. will be done as Prestige Classes in one of the upcoming books ).
I don't want to have Warforged wizards in D&D -- or any wizard clutching orbs or waving wands ("Harry Potter"-style) as they're casting spells. I don't want to have clerics who smite monsters with halberds while healing "flows" into the whole party at each stroke. I don't want fighters who have "semi-mystical" oriental-style weapon abilities that rival the spells of arch-wizards. I don't want rangers launching five arrows per round at lower levels. I don't want characters "bouncing back" from zero hit points with the 'Second Wind' (any resemblance to professional wrestling, hey?).
4E may be "COOL" and "FASTER" and "ROCK ALL THE WAY", but that's not the D&D I want to play. And no, I'm not a "rules junkie" that hates a "simplified" system -- I just want my characters to slowly *become* heroes, not being automatically *born* as them.
quote:
It doesn't change the past all that much, does it matter precisely where hell is located, floating in the Astral plane or sticking out of the Concordant whatever like a pinwheel?
Not really in terms of story. Devils still come from hell, demons still come from the abyss, and there are infinite planes floating around the astral sea apparently, so Gehenna is in there somewhere and all the Realms stories involving Yugoloths will still hold true.
Yes, it *does* matter, actually. I find it kind of embarrassing to explain these changes to my players ("Look guys -- I know that you think that souls used to go to the Fugue Plane, but now there's this place called 'Shadowfell, and *ACTUALLY* that's where the dead and undead dwell. You were just fooled by the previous editions! And all those planar adventures your previous characters have had -- they were just a bad dream, okay? Those planes *never* existed. Don't ask any questions -- just accept this as a fact!"  ).
I dont have any problems with the Cosmology itself, if this was the first D&D edition we played. Like Knight pointed out, there're just too many changes for us "old-timers" to adapt it without difficulties. Most of us probably have been 'house-ruling' and 'fine-tuning' the planes to work in *our* own campaigns... and even *IF* these "planar changes" were caused by Mystra's death (and we have less explaining to do to our players), all that hard work will be down the toilet with these profound changes.  (and how come the planes didn't collapse or "shift" -- even momentarily -- when Mystryl died?)
quote:
The Realms will endure. We are saddened to hear of the passing of our favorite deities, the diminishing of our favorite races in what seems like a senseless act. But really, so long as they portray Mystra's last stand as heroic and giver her a proper farewell, I will be content. It fits with the character of Midnight from the ToT.
Uh, Shar and Cyric just teleported into Dweomerheart and killed Mystra , which triggered the Spellplague (see GHotR) -- period. I see no "heroic last stands" or "proper farewells" in that. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
Edited by - Asgetrion on 27 Sep 2007 12:54:58 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 12:56:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
These articles are detailing changes which are made for core D&D - if they will affect the FR is not sure yet. As far as I know, the core setting (Greyhawk) is not as detailed as FR, and so changes to the Great Wheel may be much easier. But if they will be translated 1:1 to the FR is not sure. Since the official FR do not share the same cosmology with core (no great wheel, but a great tree), I hope very much that not all of theses chances will be translated to FR - or at least in a way consistent to FR of today.
Greyhawk won't be the core setting -- it will be something called 'Points of Light'. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 13:53:50
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The more I hear from my friends here at the keep, the more worried I am.
I am thinking that 3.5 should have just got "tweaked" and 4.0 should have been something alltogether new.
Like a phb for beginners. A starting point for new players who then could make the choice to a richer and more detailed world as their skills/intersest in FR increased.
Enough opining for this morning, back to work! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 14:39:15
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| The planes and the cosmology are probably the areas that is of least worry for my part when it comes to changes as I never liked Planescape or much of the planar lore to begin with, but what I am hearing doesn't exactly send tinglings of excitement down my back. Then again, I might like them better than the old version. |
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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 16:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I am thinking that 3.5 should have just got "tweaked" and 4.0 should have been something alltogether new.
Like a phb for beginners. A starting point for new players who then could make the choice to a richer and more detailed world as their skills/intersest in FR increased.
I concur with Walker here. 4e should have started as something new. In time, maybe, if the new rules proved worth all the praise spent up to now, other worlds and systems would benefit from it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 16:02:25
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| Can someone please give me a specific reference to warforged being in the Realms? I've seen many complaints about the idea, but I've no idea where the idea came from... |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
