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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Aug 2007 : 06:14:11
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Got a request from a group of players that say they're tired of getting stuck on what seems to me easily enough solved dungeon situations.
Case in example a recent situation involving an underground river, and a wooden platform that could with some difficulty be converted into a makeshift raft.
At any rate, the wizards asking for some kind of "eureeka moment" spell, or "reality altering".
Basicly he wants to be able to cast a spell in a situation where the party finds themselves at a "dead end" and haven't got a clue what they're supposed to be doing.
Any ideas for some requirements for this if I even allowed it?
P.S.
I was told this would be a good example of what they had in mind... o.0
Deus Ex Machina
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"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2007 : 06:26:02
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Wish does the job  |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2007 : 06:31:25
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Wish, even limited wish, most of the cleric's "communication with my god" spells, as well as a simple intellect boosting spell (fox's cunning?) could all help.
Instead of a spell, you could allow use of some skill to give them hints in a given situation (for example, a check in Knowledge [Dungeonneering] or Knowledge [Engeeniring]), or even a simple intelligence check (there is a passage about the use of riddles in the DMG I think, from which you could inspire yourself). |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 00:21:07
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This thread is a bit funny.
To me the "puzzle" you mentioned doesn't seem that hard to solve, but maybe your players are, for whatever reason, just not into (or not that good at) solving those types of puzzles. Would you consider putting challenges of a different nature in your game? That seems like a better solution than using the same puzzles that the players don't like and "solving" them with an arbitrary spell. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 00:37:36
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I know I won't be liked by many people here, but IMHO those "puzzles" that must be solved using players' (instead of characters) abilities are the best way to get in trouble.
In short, challenges should be overcome with dice rolls rather than metagame knowledge.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 09 Aug 2007 00:38:08 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 01:09:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I know I won't be liked by many people here, but IMHO those "puzzles" that must be solved using players' (instead of characters) abilities are the best way to get in trouble.
In short, challenges should be overcome with dice rolls rather than metagame knowledge.
Very true! I believe in "character knowledge over player knowledge", myself. People who love puzzles wouldn't like that...but these particular players, as described, don't come off as puzzle lovers. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Aug 2007 01:26:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 01:22:36
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It happened to me, once, that someone thought I'd be able to solve a puzzle and built a game session around it. That session was quickly derailed when my character and the other guy's character got there and were utterly stuck. Neither of us had a clue on this puzzle, because neither one of us are good puzzle-solvers.
The DM had to tell us what to do to get us thru. It wasn't the most fun session. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 01:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Very true! I believe in "character knowledge over player knowledge, myself". People who love puzzles wouldn't like that...but these particular players, as described, don't come off as puzzle lovers.
Because I never quite agree with you, I have to say that I usually don't like this expression because I want the limitation to go mainly in one way :
Player's shouldn't be asked to know things that their characters should know [like a wizard solving a math puzzle (int check), or a ranger doing the camp set up (survival check) or the rogue getting in contact with local ruffians (gather info check)]*
However, player's shouldn't have to always act stupid because of a character lack of knowledge. Instead of penalizing a player for a good idea or his knowledge of FR lore, it's a lot more interesting to deal with it. For example, if you are getting your PCs in Westgate and you know for sure that some players know the secret nature of the Night Masks, deal with it rather than force them to fake ignorance.
* Before someone says I prefer rollplay over roleplay, of course the DM and/or the players can do a narration (or in-character acting) of what happened !
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Edited by - Skeptic on 09 Aug 2007 06:02:24 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 02:23:05
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Actually, I can agree with that point of view. I tend not to believe in making things overly difficult for the player if it kills the fun (ie. acting "stupid"). If people aren't having fun...well, it kind of takes away the point in playing. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 04:19:20
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| Perhaps I misunderstood the question, it sounds like a player wants the DM to present an unsolvable proble. That soluction can only come from the Wizard by casting a spell. The player wants the story written for him. In general a bad idea unless you include fairly quickly stories/plots that can only be solved by the other players. DM favortism or the aparence of such tends to distroy party unity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 05:56:47
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| I'd use some sort of divination spell, myself. Something that would give a hint to the player, but not solve the issue or directly say how to do it. Maybe a brief vision or something, that needs a high INT or WIS check to figure out... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mehangel
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 22:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd use some sort of divination spell, myself. Something that would give a hint to the player, but not solve the issue or directly say how to do it. Maybe a brief vision or something, that needs a high INT or WIS check to figure out...
This reminds me of that Dungeons & Dragons movie when The female wizard used a vision spell to figure out the power of the Librum.
What I have always done is ask on case by case basis if they would like to roll or roleplay as stated before. I also always leave a longer route which the players can take in case they fail the roll or become stuck. For example if the party comes across a door which will only open with the correct word trigger then I would have perhaps a secret door which might detour awhile but will still result in the same ending, thus allowing choice of the long route or the short. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 23:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Mehangel
What I have always done is ask on case by case basis if they would like to roll or roleplay as stated before.
Great idea. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 10:52:09
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I introduce riddles and other things that might involve more thinking of the players then just rolling the dice only in situations that are not crucial to the game sassion. that way the players may decide themselves if and for how long they want to deal with the riddle.
However, as far as I understand the initual question, it is ore about solving a practical situation rather than a logical problem. Therefore I would go with INT & WIS checks, skill ckecks would work too. If the players think of using spells such as the commune spells I would reward them with a rather simple answer. No giving away the way out at once but not a too riddled one either. After all, the players have already thought of using such spells and have spent the nessiccary XPs or valuable items for such a spell. that I would acknowledge when giving them the "response". and of course a wish spell would work too. Miricals I would handle with caution though for it is a powerful spell granted by a God after all. He would not just grant his powers to solve a minor thing just because his cleric is to lazy to think..........
Just my musings on this. Hope that helps a bit. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 21:25:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mehangel
What I have always done is ask on case by case basis if they would like to roll or roleplay as stated before. I also always leave a longer route which the players can take in case they fail the roll or become stuck. For example if the party comes across a door which will only open with the correct word trigger then I would have perhaps a secret door which might detour awhile but will still result in the same ending, thus allowing choice of the long route or the short.
Like I said above, "rolling" doesn't mean there is no "roleplay". You can roleplay before the roll (for example, to get a bonus on a bluff check) or after when you describe the results of the roll.
However, preparing two or more challenges to reach the same goal is indeed a very good idea. Sadly D&D being very "prep heavy", doing it at high-level can takes a lot of time. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 11 Aug 2007 21:30:05 |
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Spell Request: Deus Ex Machina ?
