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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 02:49:57
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It just seems odd to me that a rogue can somehow disable a crushing room (Star Wars - Episode 4 anyone?). With what exactly are they disabling the trap? Also there is nothing about setting up traps to be manually triggered.
Anyone know of some good trap books? WOTC or 3rd party
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Mortagon
Acolyte
Norway
33 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 02:54:59
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| Fantasy flight games has published two books called Traps and treachery and Traps and treasury 2, in their Legends and Lairs series. Both books have full illustrations on how the mechanics of the traps works. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 03:29:30
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Well I do not know good books on building and disableling traps I have from time to time designed a few with safety switches of one kind or another. Most traps do have a disable feature, however some are traps to be avoided. A treefall will work no matter what enters the trap area, such traps can be avioded easily by not entering the triger zone (There of couuse are other options like fireball if a trap is suspected, but the Durids and Elves might get upset about that).
It is not hard to design a trap, it is harder to prevent a trap from being deyected and avoided or disabled. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 03:42:34
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| That's the part I don't like. Why can all traps be disabled? =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 05:58:49
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I would assume that not all traps can be disabled. Fore example a pentagram trap with monster summoning VII that would call an outsider to slay all in the room, wouldn’t be disabled with Disable Device, but you can dispel it and suppresses the trap for 1d4 rounds.
Other mechanical traps can be disabled because they have a triggering mechanism, and by reversing that you disabled the trap.
Vic.
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Dispel magic helps here. Someone who succeeds on a caster level check against the level of the trap’s creator suppresses the trap for 1d4 rounds. This works only with a targeted dispel magic, not the area version.
Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic traps against which Disable Device checks do not succeed.
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Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
Disable Device
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm
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Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 06:40:28
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Good find on the spiked spells. I'd assume those are not prone to being disabled since they are manifested spikes.
As to the summoning spell, besides DM fiat why wouldn't a rogue be able to do something to the trap to prevent it from triggering? Personally I think that you must enter the area of the trap to disarm it, and if that is the trigger, pop goes the trap. Especially for magical traps. I just find it hard on how to draw the line, so I avoid eliminating the whole disable traps ability.
I'm approaching this as both a player and a GM.
As a player, our group has a secret temple in the underdark we are wanting to be protected against some kind of drow attack. We know it won't keep them out forever, but hopefully long enough to get our stuff together and escape through a gate. So I'm wanting to design a battlemaze that is filled with traps. =) We are going up against some pretty strong NPCs, so I'm wanting to be sure that it would even thwart a group of 15th level NPC infiltrators.
=)
As a GM I don't want every trap to just be a roll the rogue makes to move further along the story. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 16:13:18
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WotC put out a book called "The book of Challenges", (I'm pretty sure that's the name, I can't seem to find it on our bookshelves at the moment  ) that contains quite a few traps of various CR's. I believe it also talks about making traps, and explains a little about how disabling them works. It's been a long while since I read it, so I may be wrong about the last part. 
~Kes |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 16:20:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
As a GM I don't want every trap to just be a roll the rogue makes to move further along the story. =)
What would you like it to be then ? |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 16:43:19
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I'll have to look at the Book of Challenges again, it came off as a catalog of 20+ traps. I didn't notice it providing an expanded system for traps, but then my interest was dashed when I saw most the book were traps.
Skeptic, that's the thing. I don't really know. Maybe something that could be described as a "Trap Making System", much like we use the term "Magic System". As it is now it just seems like it is a Roll to Find it, and a Roll to disarm it. Unless otherwise specifically stated a trap can be disarmed.
I think of the trapped floor in the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. How could that be disarmed? .......... ummm wait a second....
Oh my gosh, I've fallen to the darkside!!! Ugh...
I've forgotten my 1st and 2nd edition roots, and fallen into "everything must be defined" of 3.5. =(
I guess my motives are from two sources....
- As a player, I want to be able to present a system to the GM for his approval that I can use to build a trapped maze to protect our secret temple. Which is a bad thing, since I should well know that nothing will keep a GM from the appointed storyline. If we are to loose the temple, we will loose the temple, however a trapped maze will make that battle all the more epic. =)
- As a DM, I want to have something to show my players, to prove that I'm not being arbitrary. That there is a method to the destruction. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 17:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Skeptic, that's the thing. I don't really know. Maybe something that could be described as a "Trap Making System", much like we use the term "Magic System". As it is now it just seems like it is a Roll to Find it, and a Roll to disarm it. Unless otherwise specifically stated a trap can be disarmed.
Well, the first question you have to answer, is how coherent you want to be with the game system your playing with (knowing that D&D isn't perfectly coherent itself).
In D&D, challenges have a DC assigned to them and the players roll agaisn't it. This simple task resolution system is the core of the rules, going agaisn't it changes the game a lot. Before doing it, be sure you know what your are doing and that your players are fine with it.
Now specialy about traps :
1) You could create a more complex system that would make Traps equivalent to fighting an NPC (requiring many rolls).
2) It's not clear that an opening chasm must be played with the traps rules. So Disable device could be ruled out. However, I have to say that "abstract" skills like this one, are IMHO, an excellent thing, because they are a first step toward a conflict resolution system. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 30 Jul 2007 19:04:33 |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 17:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I'll have to look at the Book of Challenges again, it came off as a catalog of 20+ traps. I didn't notice it providing an expanded system for traps, but then my interest was dashed when I saw most the book were traps.
I finally found our copy, and you are correct, it is just mainly traps. However, in my searching, I found "Song and Silence", and that was the book I was thinking of. It has trap creation mechanics in it, starting on page 25. The book has a 5 step proccess of making traps, and a sidebar on "Varient: What Disabling a Device Means."
Hope that helps some.
~Kes |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 18:16:28
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I don't think I'd remove the task resolution aspect of traps. I just preceive a dryness to the system, in that a trap is a trap is a trap, the only difference is the DC involved, and the type of damage that is dealt. This of course changes with the higher CR traps, like those described later in the Book of Challenges, where the traps really include the environment. It just seems that you have to get beyond CR10 traps, to get to interesting traps.
So I figure a way to make lower level traps more interesting, is by their overall design into the environment. Where what use to be a CR1 trap, can't be disarmed. That you either have to trip it, dispel it, or grin and soldier through it. =)
quote:
You could create a more complex system that would make Trapes equivalent to fighting an NPC
That reminds me of a point I have against the trap system. They are like NPCs in that they have a CR, and you get experience for them as if they were a monster of the same CR. The fault I see is that the system boils a trap down to a few rolls (most from a single character), for the same XP.
I've always felt that xp from traps seemed kinda cheesy, especially when you get the xp if the trap is sprung. It is as if the trap was a monster that laid in ambush, attacked, and then ran away. =)
I suppose it would be similiar if monsters were just HPs, Attk rating, and the amount of damage they dealt.
Thanks, I've a lot to think on.
I need to sit back and get creative with the low CR traps. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 18:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
I finally found our copy, and you are correct, it is just mainly traps. However, in my searching, I found "Song and Silence", and that was the book I was thinking of. It has trap creation mechanics in it, starting on page 25. The book has a 5 step proccess of making traps, and a sidebar on "Varient: What Disabling a Device Means."
Hope that helps some.
~Kes
Woooo thank you!
I think that Variant rule will likely be the same described in the DMG and the Book of Challenges. Actually I think since BoC was 3.0, it is the DMG that replicated the rule I'm thinking of.
Thank you, I'll have to borrow a copy from a friend, I don't have very many 3.0 books. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 19:09:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I've always felt that xp from traps seemed kinda cheesy, especially when you get the xp if the trap is sprung. It is as if the trap was a monster that laid in ambush, attacked, and then ran away. =)
I suppose it would be similiar if monsters were just HPs, Attk rating, and the amount of damage they dealt.
Sprung traps give XP for the same reason defeated but not killed NPCs give XP. The PCs have overcome the challenge using ressources, they are rewarded with XP. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 30 Jul 2007 19:09:37 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 19:59:25
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I can't equate a sprung trap to having been defeated, even though I know the rules do. Even though I admit that one typically learns from their mistakes more than from their successes. =)
I guess its that a trap can't win, unless it results in a TPK. I'm at work and can't check it, but if a party runs from an encounter, even after dispatching some foes, they don't receive XP for the encounter, right? If they do, they don't get the full XP as if they defeated everything, right?
With traps, if encountered, it's automatically free xp.... if you get past it one way or another..... hrms...
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 21:02:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I can't equate a sprung trap to having been defeated, even though I know the rules do. Even though I admit that one typically learns from their mistakes more than from their successes. =)
Don't think of the trap as sprung -- think of it as disarmed. It's not the same thing. For example, a trap that fires a single projectile is defeated if the projectile is launched but blocked, or if something prevents it from launching at all.
And if you discover the trap by blundering into it and falling victim to its effects, then it wasn't disarmed -- so no XP.
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I guess its that a trap can't win, unless it results in a TPK. I'm at work and can't check it, but if a party runs from an encounter, even after dispatching some foes, they don't receive XP for the encounter, right? If they do, they don't get the full XP as if they defeated everything, right?
Traps don't have to result in TPKs. In some situations, doing harm but not death is enough. In others, all you want to do is capture or inconvenience someone.
I'd not count a trap as part of an encounter unless it is integral to the encounter. If you battle the BBEG and defeat him, you shouldn't be docked for choosing not to worry about the trapped bust off to one side. If, on the other hand, you had to get past the trap to get to him, then it was part of the encounter and should be factored in.
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
With traps, if encountered, it's automatically free xp.... if you get past it one way or another..... hrms...
Nope, you have to avoid being affected by it. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2007 : 21:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I guess its that a trap can't win, unless it results in a TPK. I'm at work and can't check it, but if a party runs from an encounter, even after dispatching some foes, they don't receive XP for the encounter, right? If they do, they don't get the full XP as if they defeated everything, right?
A trap can "win" like any other NPC in the dungeon if the damage it dealt made the PCs run for their lives out of the place.
They get partial XP. In the specific case where a trap can "fire at will" and that by getting hit the PCs don't get any advantage, I would say don't give XP.
For example, a pit trap that the PC failed to spot. I would give XP after the leader has fallen into it. However, if a stone pillar was hurling some fireballs to them every round, getting hurt by the first one wouldn’t give XP. Finally, if this pillar could only hurl 10 fireballs and the party managed to survive their effects, they would get the XP. (Even if the trap reset 24h later). |
Edited by - Skeptic on 30 Jul 2007 21:48:54 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 02:19:17
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Actually Wooly is completely correct the DMG states on page 36.
"A monster is usually overcome by defeating it in battle, a trap by being disarmed, and so forth."
I would agree that if the party navigates past a trap so that it doesn't harm anyone, then it is overcome.
This will definately be something I bring up at the next game. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
Edited by - Wenin on 31 Jul 2007 02:19:57 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 03:03:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Actually Wooly is completely correct the DMG states on page 36.
"A monster is usually overcome by defeating it in battle, a trap by being disarmed, and so forth."
I would agree that if the party navigates past a trap so that it doesn't harm anyone, then it is overcome.
In fact, the correct answer can be found on p. 39 :
Challenge ratings for traps
[...] Overcoming the challenge of a trap involves encountering the trap, either by disarming it, avoiding it, or simply surviving the damage it dealt.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 31 Jul 2007 03:04:44 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 03:12:18
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| Dungeonscape has some traps called "encounter traps," which are multi part traps that you have to do X to get to Y in order to disarm the trap. They are a little less straightforward than just searching and disarming, and they have different ratings for if you try to break the trap, or if you disarm part of it, etc. Might be something interesting for you to check out. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 03:37:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I don't think I'd remove the task resolution aspect of traps. I just preceive a dryness to the system, in that a trap is a trap is a trap, the only difference is the DC involved, and the type of damage that is dealt.
I wanted to add that this "dryness" you see in the traps rules is IMHO a real problem with D&D. Traps, natural hazards, random encounters and other "ressources-eaters" could easily get skiped in a RPG with a more "narrative" style.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 31 Jul 2007 03:41:09 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 12:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
In fact, the correct answer can be found on p. 39 :
Challenge ratings for traps
[...] Overcoming the challenge of a trap involves encountering the trap, either by disarming it, avoiding it, or simply surviving the damage it dealt.
Rats =)
Thanks, KnightErrantJR! |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Looking for a more indepth description of traps
