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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 01:03:30
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I was thinking recently about Tiamat, Bahamut, and their origins, and their shifts from simply being unique dragons at the top of the food chain, to being "unique planar" beings, to being full on gods.
I really liked Eric Boyd's fix in Dragons of Faerun about Tiamat and Bahamut (Marduk?) being part of the Untheric pantheon, killing each other but "surviving" and becoming "archdevil and celestial paragon," and then slowly working their way up the deity ladder again. It helped to fill in why a goddess would serve as the "watchdog to Hell" in Avernus, as well as why Tiamat is a major power acting against the gods in the Untheric pantheon, but at various times has been a lesser goddess among dragons.
Now, add to this some of the conjecture in this thread at Paizo, about the Ferrous Dragons (which I know not everyone will include in the Realms):
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dragon/generalDiscussion/ferrousDragons&page=2#226047
What this got me to wondering, since the leader of the Ferrous Dragons was a contemporary of Tiamat and Bahamut as leader of a draconic faction in pre history, is this:
Was there a time when Tiamat and Bahamut were what they were originally described as, just the head of their respective draconic food chains? And if so, how would this reconcile with the rest of their history.
One thing I was thinking is that perhaps the beings now known as Tiamat and Bahamut aren't the first to have these titles (much as the leader of the Ferrous Dragons has become a title that was handed down over the years).
If Tiamat was a Babylonian/Untheric deity, perhaps the "mother/destroyer" goddess had a daughter, a five headed dragon, that was mortal and personally led the various chromatic dragons. Similarly, what if the original Bahamut was the son of Marduk with a good dragon (or at least a metallic dragon, given that early dragons were all a bit more vicious). Perhaps Bahamut was the reason that the good dragons became more benevolent.
In this case, Bahamut, when his father Marduk was killed, inherited Marduk's powers, and when he was killed, retained enough power to reform as a celestial paragon. Depending on weather you think that Xymor was always a separate god or if this was a recent development, it could be that Bahamut filled in Xymor's place when Xymor was killed, thus becoming a full god again.
When the "mother/destroyer" Tiamat was killed, her essence flowed into her five headed daughter. Being less benevolent than Bahamut, instead of the daughter inheriting the power, Tiamat took her daughter over, so she had the same personality, but with a new (but similar) body. The shift in power made Tiamat into an archdevil, and eventually a few plots in the Old Empires (the Cult of Entropy, Tchazzar's Cult) she moved up the ladder, then had her "up and down" fight with Gilgeam during the Time of Troubles.
I know, this may be pointless, I was just wondering if any of this makes any sense. I kind of liked the idea of the current Tiamat and Bahamut having been "mortal" at one point in time, and it seemed to fit at least tenuously with the "Bahamut was Marduk" revelation in Dragons of Faerun.
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 09:34:37
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| Did you consult Candlekeep Compendium IV? It has a very detailed article about the origin of Torilian dragons, which is a little bit different to that of DoF (because CC IV was published about one year before DoF). There, for example, Xymor and Bahamut are not one and the same, but Xymor was Bahamut's father who was killed by his sister Yaldabaoth (the later Tiamat who is the aunt of Bahamut). This article seems to back up your ideas you presented above. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 14:55:45
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| Yeah, I had Brian's article in mind when I started my conjecture, because the information on Gruaghlothor seems to line up with this mindset as well. I was kind of thinking of a "bridge" between the Ferrous Dragon article, Brian's work, and Dragons of Faerun, all of which I don't think are mutually exclusive, they just need a "bridge" to link all of them. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 01 Jul 2007 15:03:34 |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2007 : 20:11:55
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I like your thinking on this topic - especially on how mother/daughter and father/son combo's might have passed deitific power along genetic lines. I think even some of the early lore on Bane/Xvim could be viewed in that same light, although later lore seems to state that Bane only seeded a portion of his power in Xvim as a hedge against death.
As for the second poster's question, I'm not sure - I probably need to go back and re-read Brian's article and see how that information also might apply. But I'll trust you when you say it does. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Dragon Patrons And Their Origins
