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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2007 : 04:13:10
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I asked this when the name came up in the "Reason to worship Lolth" thread, but can anyone remember a specific reference to Kanchelsis, the vampire god, in any Realms products?
I know the lich god from Monster Mythology ended was more or less subsumed by Velsharoon, and one or the other lycanthropic deities was mentioned as an ally to one of the Realmsian gods, but I'm wondering about the dear old Rake . . . or the Beast, depending on the aspect.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 04:28:17
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| I can't think of any reference to him in Realmslore. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 04:47:21
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I'd have to agree. I don't immediately recall any specific reference to Kanchelsis in the Realmslore.
On Hallowed Ground and Monster Mythology remain the more detailed sources of reference.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 05:19:05
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| you know Ive always thought of a god of undead as being a silly idea. Undead dont have souls so theres no point in a deity being there patron |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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EvilKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 05:38:21
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According to the Danali index, it shows on a Planescape Campaign Setting map.
EvilKnight |
Danali Index |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 19:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Undead dont have souls so theres no point in a deity being there patron
Except that intelligent undead have souls (liches, vampires, wights, etc) or are themselves little more than a soul and some negative energy (ghosts, spectres, allip, etc).
And on the general thread topic, I can't think of a reference to Kanchelsis within Realmslore myself either. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12022 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 22:16:19
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Hmmm, I can't think of a specific reference, but I've got a nagging feeling.... blood mage, possibly?
Kanchelsis was male, but an ally of Kiaransalee in Powers & Pantheons is listed as "The Blood Queen". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 23:49:20
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I can't think of a specific reference, but I've got a nagging feeling.... blood mage, possibly?
Kanchelsis was male, but an ally of Kiaransalee in Powers & Pantheons is listed as "The Blood Queen".
Hmm, good thought, maybe a Female Aspect?
Piscaethes the Blood Queen is an aboleth deity. (See Night Below, DDGttU, and Lords of Madness).
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2007 : 02:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I can't think of a specific reference, but I've got a nagging feeling.... blood mage, possibly?
Kanchelsis was male, but an ally of Kiaransalee in Powers & Pantheons is listed as "The Blood Queen".
Hmm, good thought, maybe a Female Aspect?
Piscaethes the Blood Queen is an aboleth deity. (See Night Below, DDGttU, and Lords of Madness).
--Eric
Ah thanks Eric, been awhile since I looked at any of those books in great detail. So had just made an assumption, and you know how those go...  |
News of the Weird
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2007 : 03:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Undead dont have souls so theres no point in a deity being there patron
Except that intelligent undead have souls (liches, vampires, wights, etc) or are themselves little more than a soul and some negative energy (ghosts, spectres, allip, etc).
And on the general thread topic, I can't think of a reference to Kanchelsis within Realmslore myself either.
Id accpet that Lichs and ghosts would have souls but I wouldnt consider any undead that forces an alignment change (such as Wraiths, Wights, Skeletons, Zombies, Vampires+ Spawn, Spectres, Shadows etc) to have them |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2007 : 07:28:08
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Well a deity might represent the force that made undead take their form instead of rest. The unbalance of emotion etc. Or it could be that undeath tore away a part of the spirit from the soul, even in mindless undead. Then again this is not a subject I am all that up to date on.
On the soul note (no Stax or Motown jokes); do elves and fey have souls in the game now? I seem to remember them not having one in the Gygax days, but did that change to all creatures having a spirit of sorts? Seems logical, but i cant remember seeing any references on the subject. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2007 : 16:18:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
do elves and fey have souls in the game now? I seem to remember them not having one in the Gygax days, but did that change to all creatures having a spirit of sorts? Seems logical, but i cant remember seeing any references on the subject.
Elves do, otherwise their souls/spirits wouldn't be able to go to the Fugue when they die nor could they be stuck in Kel's wall if they are faithless. Fey.... I dunno. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 08 May 2007 16:20:03 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2007 : 18:27:21
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Thanks Kuje, I just got curious as I could not remember seeing the spirit-soul difference mentioned in old Realms products at all.
Interestingly enough Demihuman Deities (p.93)takes the middle way, saying that in elven religion they see themselves as having spirits instead of souls and many believe in reincarnation. Good way of letting both options stay open as belief and reality could be very different from each other or alike.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2007 : 22:59:53
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As far as I can remember, WAY back in 1st edition, elves were said to have spirits and not souls. The game effect of this was that they could not be raised, only ressurected, because creatures with spirits did not have an afterlife, but rather kept being reincarnated. I think the reference in Demihuman Deities is sort of a way to incorporate an old D&D rule into FR lore, which I like.
That having been said, I'm glad there isn't a spirit/soul designation concering game rules anymore, since this kind of made it difficult to portray human whose religion espoused reincarnation, since the game rules would say they are "wrong."
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2007 : 07:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
As far as I can remember, WAY back in 1st edition, elves were said to have spirits and not souls. The game effect of this was that they could not be raised, only ressurected, because creatures with spirits did not have an afterlife, but rather kept being reincarnated. I think the reference in Demihuman Deities is sort of a way to incorporate an old D&D rule into FR lore, which I like.
That having been said, I'm glad there isn't a spirit/soul designation concering game rules anymore, since this kind of made it difficult to portray human whose religion espoused reincarnation, since the game rules would say they are "wrong."
I agree that the old divide between spirit and soul was problematic and it continued with the "unraisable" elf through 2ed. Not being 3ed. player, is this completely gone from the game now or is there still differences between elves and other mortals? I wonder what view Ed held on this question in the old home campaign days of the Realms.
That being said, I will stop leading this thread away from its topic now. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2007 : 14:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I agree that the old divide between spirit and soul was problematic and it continued with the "unraisable" elf through 2ed. Not being 3ed. player, is this completely gone from the game now or is there still differences between elves and other mortals? I wonder what view Ed held on this question in the old home campaign days of the Realms.
That being said, I will stop leading this thread away from its topic now.
It's pretty much gone. All mortal/humanoids can be raised/reincarnated the same since the material says they all have souls or something, be it spirits, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2007 : 18:01:54
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I liked that only humans had souls in older editions, it tied in better with ancient folklore. I understand game-mechanics wise it makes more sense now (all things being even), but I feel as if a little part of the 'fantasy' is gone now.
Falling back on canon, I don't really see any Elves being raised from the dead in source or novels. It almost seems like an 'affront' to the Seldarine to NOT want to join them. However, PCs would be in dire straights without it it so I guess it needs to be in there.
I do remember some stuff in EoE that specifically mentions that Elves who have 'passed on' may return to the mortal world in order to defend their fellow Elves. It was almost like being a part-time Baelnorn, and would be a good compromise. Also, some Elves can hold off the 'Call to Arvandor' almost indeffinately. I believe the woman in charge of the Griffons is older then 1000 in EoE, but I think Elaine explained that by stating she spends much time in stasis.
Going back to the original question, I think the older rules tie-in better with the 3e Races of Destiny. You can simply say that those races are the only ones with souls, so they have been selected by 'higher powers' for a greater purpose.
Also, from a logical point of veiw, perhaps races that are 'created' have spirits, but races that evolve naturally have 'souls'. When their gods created them, they placed a small piece of their own devine essence (the spirit) into the vessel to give it life. A 'soul' can be said to come from a greater source (GOD?).
I know that's bordering on religion, and I apologize. I understand completely that in 3e souls and spirits are treated the same way for game purposes, but I still like to think about stuff like this. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 05:33:50
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http://132.209.40.23/w4/campagne/HTML/FR_DG/Kanchelsis.html
"Kanchelsis, the Lord of Vampires, is said to have been born of the collective blood of the Seldarine (the Elven Pantheon), mingled with that of a Human creator god. Blood itself, from such sources, was intended as a creative force to maintain the life of worlds. But in some dreadful and magical accident, a bloodsucking, ravening thing thing was born. Blood took on its own life, took corporeal, fleshy form. And the darkness of Kanchelsis came into the planes and fled to Gehenna..." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 07:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
http://132.209.40.23/w4/campagne/HTML/FR_DG/Kanchelsis.html
"Kanchelsis, the Lord of Vampires, is said to have been born of the collective blood of the Seldarine (the Elven Pantheon), mingled with that of a Human creator god. Blood itself, from such sources, was intended as a creative force to maintain the life of worlds. But in some dreadful and magical accident, a bloodsucking, ravening thing thing was born. Blood took on its own life, took corporeal, fleshy form. And the darkness of Kanchelsis came into the planes and fled to Gehenna..."
I'm pretty sure that's not canon... And it doesn't strike me as all that plausible, either. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 12:36:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
http://132.209.40.23/w4/campagne/HTML/FR_DG/Kanchelsis.html
"Kanchelsis, the Lord of Vampires, is said to have been born of the collective blood of the Seldarine (the Elven Pantheon), mingled with that of a Human creator god. Blood itself, from such sources, was intended as a creative force to maintain the life of worlds. But in some dreadful and magical accident, a bloodsucking, ravening thing thing was born. Blood took on its own life, took corporeal, fleshy form. And the darkness of Kanchelsis came into the planes and fled to Gehenna..."
I'm pretty sure that's not canon... And it doesn't strike me as all that plausible, either.
Agreed. I don't recall seeing this info anywhere in the canon Realmslore. My guess is, this is something borrowed from a DM's home campaign.
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 18:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
http://132.209.40.23/w4/campagne/HTML/FR_DG/Kanchelsis.html
"Kanchelsis, the Lord of Vampires, is said to have been born of the collective blood of the Seldarine (the Elven Pantheon), mingled with that of a Human creator god. Blood itself, from such sources, was intended as a creative force to maintain the life of worlds. But in some dreadful and magical accident, a bloodsucking, ravening thing thing was born. Blood took on its own life, took corporeal, fleshy form. And the darkness of Kanchelsis came into the planes and fled to Gehenna..."
I'm pretty sure that's not canon... And it doesn't strike me as all that plausible, either.
I think it was in the last issue of Dragon in an article that covered forgotten gods.
And what's that implausible about it? Who knows, maybe this happened before Araushnee 'fell' and she tainted the mixture. Classic Vampires and drow sound like the kind of people who'd get along great together. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 18:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
http://132.209.40.23/w4/campagne/HTML/FR_DG/Kanchelsis.html
"Kanchelsis, the Lord of Vampires, is said to have been born of the collective blood of the Seldarine (the Elven Pantheon), mingled with that of a Human creator god. Blood itself, from such sources, was intended as a creative force to maintain the life of worlds. But in some dreadful and magical accident, a bloodsucking, ravening thing thing was born. Blood took on its own life, took corporeal, fleshy form. And the darkness of Kanchelsis came into the planes and fled to Gehenna..."
I'm pretty sure that's not canon... And it doesn't strike me as all that plausible, either.
I think it was in the last issue of Dragon in an article that covered forgotten gods.
And what's that implausible about it? Who knows, maybe this happened before Araushnee 'fell' and she tainted the mixture. Classic Vampires and drow sound like the kind of people who'd get along great together.
The Seldarine blood mixing with human creator deity blood doesn't really work for me, nor does the idea of it having been affected by some magical accident. It's not quite as bad as Madcoil's backstory (from ElfQuest), but it involves too much coincidence and wildly unexpected results for me.
I'd expect that Kanchelsis was a mortal who became the first vampire from some curse, and from there eventually became powerful enough (perhaps by pulling a Kiaransalee, but with vampires) to become a deity. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 19:15:04
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I'm going to be absolutely useless here, as to me Andrei Kanchelskis is an ex-Man Utd Midfielder.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 19:27:16
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I've read that before, but not on that site, so it may be something official.
However, I believe it is core, in which case it may or may not apply to the Realms Seldarine.
Edit: It is indeed in the Forgotten Faiths section of Dragon #359 - that is one AWESOME issue (and yet... reading it still saddens me deeply...) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2009 21:33:35 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2009 : 06:54:32
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Wooly: Madcoil reference FTW.
On the spirit/soul argument, the original inspiration for that (I would think) came from the Silmarillion: The spirits of the Eldar went to the halls of Mandos, on the edge of Night, until they had forgotten enough mortal cares (or were needed, or something) to be reborn into the mortal world once again- they were tied to Arda for eternity, this being the source of their immortality. Whereas the spirits of Men went 'outside the bounds of Arda' to a place known only to Eru (and the Valar thought they returned to the Secret Fire of creation). I haven't read The Sil. in a long time, but that's how I recall it.
P.S.- I always loved how Tolkien could convey the Otherness of a thing by capitalizing a word we don't usually see as a proper noun... come to think of it, Hunter S Thompson did the same thing to great effect.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2009 : 14:01:53
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
I'm going to be absolutely useless here, as to me Andrei Kanchelskis is an ex-Man Utd Midfielder.
it would be more appropriate that he played for Chelski
now for the first vampire I like the story in Blade 3, born perfect in the first human civilization, and that he's connected to dragons (Dragons) rather than elves, a gift and a curse thing
maybe something similar to that first story in the Realms of Elves
his name would be Damaran, tough I don't know their history
mentioning the human creator god was just wrong imo |
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Realms References to Kanchelsis Anywhere?
