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Drew.Davis
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2007 : 18:27:01
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I read one day about the coming fight between the mulhorandi pantheon and the Faerun pantheon and decided to run an adventure about it using the war as a backdrop. Mainly the battle between Tempus and Anhur.
The one thing I'm having difficulties with is the alliance of gods as its not a single god for himself but the survival of their faiths. Like Lloth for instance... would she side with the Mulhorandi pantheon because Corollen(sp?) is siding with Tempus? I know I can place them where I want and Lloth is fickle about the matter and would switch sides faster then a heartbeat if they are losing. As the gods actually fighting and portfolio switching will take place... just not know (using their pawns to hopefully weaken the gods themselves by killing the faithful!)
Now some like Shar I placed with the Mulhorandi because it makes for an interesting battle of the weave as well ;)
As of right now its the faithful doing the fighting and not the gods on the material plane although invasions of the Gods realms from patrons have occured just not known by the PC's.
Any help would be greatly appreciative!
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The only job of the military man is to fix the mistakes of the politition! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 18:52:47
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This probably isn't the scenario you were thinking of, but if I were going to play up a rivalry between the Mulhorandi and the Faerunian pantheons, with the center peices being Tempus and Anhur, it would have to start with the followers. With more Faerunian influence in Mulhorand, the Mulhorandi pantheon has to claim a "spot" in the Faerunian pantheon or be reduced to demigods, more or less.
Anhur's followers would likely start moving out, as adventurous sorts, to lands nearby but outside of Mulhorand. Being a chaotic good war deity, Anhur is pretty well suited for adventurer warriors, and they would likely try to convert such. They would likely begin looking at opressive nations and cities and begin fomenting rebellion within them (such as lands held by the Church of Bane, who is likely to become a major thorn in their sides if they join the Faerunian pantheon).
Eventually, if Anhur became powerful enough from this expanded worship, the gods themselves might (but maybe not) come into conflict with one another. It seems to me that Anhur would have to spend a lot of time converting Faerunians in order to be equal to Tempus as far as Faerun is concerned.
If this happened, I could see the two fighting over who would retain "war" as a domain (hey, they are war gods), but I could also see Garagos intervening as well, if only to get one final shot at Tempus in case he falls. I could see Anhur not accepting this victory, since it demeans his own creeds to allow Garagos to weaken his foe.
In the end, I could see, instead of Anhur becoming a demigod that is fading away in Mulhorand, becoming Tempus' subordinate, perhaps remaining as a lesser deity of rebels, freedom, and wild tactics in battle, as a counter to the Red Knight's measured tactics and sound strategies.
Mind you, that's only if Anhur's church expands into Unther, perhaps into Thay, and starts spreading well into Faerun, which it really hasn't done at the moment, and given that Anhur and Horus-Re don't always get along, Anhur might not be fully "free" to move into Faerun without some reservations.
I don't picture many other deities getting involved. Tiamat might try to chip away at the Mulhorandi gods so she can claim more of the Old Empires. |
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Drew.Davis
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 01:32:00
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The reason I'm doing it on this scope is because of this statement in faiths and Pantheons
quote:
Some oracles claim that in years to come Tempus may find himself at war with Anhur as the Faerunian and Mulhorandi pantheons clash and (inevitably) merge.
So my inturpretation is its not just Anhur and Tempus its all of Mulhorandi gods waging war... Ive already made those changes to power from extended worship and such... its just right now its the faithful doing that majority of war... killing the faithful therefor weakening the gods, I dont include the dead patrons as a power source for the gods only those living can do it.
I do like the subversion idea tho... I should try it. Garagos is the trickiest... would he side with Tempus so Anhur doesn't steal his victory or stay to the side and hit the prevailing power in its weaker state?
I have most of it planned, its just abit tougher to place the fickle gods on the initial side because their faithful can be a dominating force and help with the tides of battle. |
The only job of the military man is to fix the mistakes of the politition! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 01:39:16
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| Garagos is the god of berserkers, and less honorable than Tempus. My own personal opinion would be that Garagos would try to gain a victory, or even just a chance to strike back at Tempus, rather than going through the logical progression of being upset with Anhur for taking "his" victory. Its even been suggested that Tempus doesn't want to fully do away with Garagos for fear of tainting himself with the "rampant bloodlust" parts of Garagos' portfolio, thus sullying his own honor. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 02:18:48
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I've got a somewhat different take on things, but that's probably because I've thought way too much about it. I see the common-portfolio deities of the Faerūnian and Mulhorandi pantheons coming into conflict before the opposed-philosophy gods, if only because Faerūn's already balanced precariously in certain areas (magic and war being two fairly big ones), and there are too many greater deities of certain aspects to ignore.
Here's what I think might happen in the next, oh, 200 years. At the end of that period, the integration of Mulhorand's pantheon into the Faerūnian pantheon should be mostly complete.
Anhur
Absorbed by the more powerful Tempus following their inevitable battle (and refusing to be a servitor deity). Shift Tempus toward CG in order to counteract the growth in power and evil of Garagos. Creates to deities; Tempus, CG greater power of war and (honorable) combat, and Garagos, CE lesser power of destruction through war, plunder and bloodlust.
Geb
Leaves his portfolio to Grumbar (with whom he greatly overlaps) and retires to his home and wife, Nut.
Hathor
Accompanies Geb on his return to their home world, after having descended to demipower status, as a servitor to Selūne (technically), but with strong ties to Chauntea and Eilistraee. Her worshippers are divided among those gods.
Horus-Re
Merges on a roughly equal basis with Lathander, becoming a LG greater power of the sun, rulership, renewal, beginnings, summer and youth. Possibly the next progression in the Greater God of the Sun stages.
Isis
Agriculture being the province of Chauntea, and love being covered by Sune, Isis drops all the way to a demipower of marriage and benevolent magic (though she serves neither Mystra nor Sune).
Nephthys
Loses much of her influence to Shaundakul and Waukeen, remaining only as a demipower of protection over the dead and their belongings.
Osiris
After watching most of his family be absorbed, defeated, or depart for home, and declining greatly in worship (his followers turning to Tyr, Kelemvor, or Chauntea), Osiris returns as well. A fragment of his being trickles to the current Lord of the Dead, sharpening his eye toward justice for the departed.
Sebek
Stalked, slain and absorbed by Malar.
Set
With some of his portfolio picked away by already-Faerūnian gods, set winds up as a LE intermediate deity of deserts, reptiles, and ambition.
Thoth
Departs rather than being absorbed by Oghma (whose portfolio subsumes his own almost entirely). |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 04:07:11
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| I kind of like that progression Garen . . . interesting dichotomy between Tempus turning CG and Garagos turning CE, and I liked Sebek being killed by Malar. I get the feeling though that Set might still keep his inroads into Yuan-ti territory if the rest of the pantheon started to fade away. |
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Drew.Davis
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 05:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Garagos is the god of berserkers, and less honorable than Tempus. My own personal opinion would be that Garagos would try to gain a victory, or even just a chance to strike back at Tempus, rather than going through the logical progression of being upset with Anhur for taking "his" victory. Its even been suggested that Tempus doesn't want to fully do away with Garagos for fear of tainting himself with the "rampant bloodlust" parts of Garagos' portfolio, thus sullying his own honor.
I see that and understand... yeah he would attack probably at first chance.
But to the others you guys are assuming that the Faerunian dieties are going to win... Im placing a big big burdon on the PC's ;) |
The only job of the military man is to fix the mistakes of the politition! |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 13:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Horus-Re
Merges on a roughly equal basis with Lathander, becoming a LG greater power of the sun, rulership, renewal, beginnings, summer and youth. Possibly the next progression in the Greater God of the Sun stages.
Ka-ching! Leading from that, I can definitely see the Risen Sun heresy of Lathander vastly supporting this, and the organized church having a (hopefully small) schism. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 14:23:19
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You ask which side Lolth would fall on. Lolth is from the elven pantheon (or if you prefer the dark elven pantheon), and probably wouldn't become involved in the conflict between the faerunian pantheon and the mulhorandi pantheon. Neither would the elven deities, unless the Mulhorandi pantheon threatened... say the Yuirwood. However, there could be the possibility of single gods possibly trying to grab influence outside the elves similar to what Kiaransalee tried with Orcus if their portfolios meshed.
As to which deities win out, I like what Garen Thal posted except for 2 pieces. I wouldn't necessarily count out Osiris. I could see him besting Kelemvor, as the newly-arisen deity isn't exactly totally fitted for the seat. I also don't see Anhur definitely losing out to Tempus, as he has a strong following in Chessenta, Unther, and Mulhorand... which makes for a decent powerbase in the area. Both are gods of war, but Anhur's would tend to be more professional. Then you have to ask, on what side will the red knight and Garagos throw their support (Garagos not liking Tempus much and the red knight possibly seeing Anhur as a god more like herself..... godly romance?). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 20:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I've got a somewhat different take on things, but that's probably because I've thought way too much about it. I see the common-portfolio deities of the Faerūnian and Mulhorandi pantheons coming into conflict before the opposed-philosophy gods, if only because Faerūn's already balanced precariously in certain areas (magic and war being two fairly big ones), and there are too many greater deities of certain aspects to ignore.
Here's what I think might happen in the next, oh, 200 years. At the end of that period, the integration of Mulhorand's pantheon into the Faerūnian pantheon should be mostly complete.
Anhur
Absorbed by the more powerful Tempus following their inevitable battle (and refusing to be a servitor deity). Shift Tempus toward CG in order to counteract the growth in power and evil of Garagos. Creates to deities; Tempus, CG greater power of war and (honorable) combat, and Garagos, CE lesser power of destruction through war, plunder and bloodlust.
Geb
Leaves his portfolio to Grumbar (with whom he greatly overlaps) and retires to his home and wife, Nut.
Hathor
Accompanies Geb on his return to their home world, after having descended to demipower status, as a servitor to Selūne (technically), but with strong ties to Chauntea and Eilistraee. Her worshippers are divided among those gods.
Horus-Re
Merges on a roughly equal basis with Lathander, becoming a LG greater power of the sun, rulership, renewal, beginnings, summer and youth. Possibly the next progression in the Greater God of the Sun stages.
Isis
Agriculture being the province of Chauntea, and love being covered by Sune, Isis drops all the way to a demipower of marriage and benevolent magic (though she serves neither Mystra nor Sune).
Nephthys
Loses much of her influence to Shaundakul and Waukeen, remaining only as a demipower of protection over the dead and their belongings.
Osiris
After watching most of his family be absorbed, defeated, or depart for home, and declining greatly in worship (his followers turning to Tyr, Kelemvor, or Chauntea), Osiris returns as well. A fragment of his being trickles to the current Lord of the Dead, sharpening his eye toward justice for the departed.
Sebek
Stalked, slain and absorbed by Malar.
Set
With some of his portfolio picked away by already-Faerūnian gods, set winds up as a LE intermediate deity of deserts, reptiles, and ambition.
Thoth
Departs rather than being absorbed by Oghma (whose portfolio subsumes his own almost entirely).
I don't think I'm completely comfortable with this. I'd like to see at least one of the Mulhorandi gods come out on top in a struggle against a faerunian god seeking to subsume them. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 22:03:09
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
[quote]
I don't think I'm completely comfortable with this. I'd like to see at least one of the Mulhorandi gods come out on top in a struggle against a faerunian god seeking to subsume them.
They are interloper gods with less worshippers and power and many of the deities in the Faerūnian pantheon have been around for much longer than they have. Although there are other interloper powers (Oghma, for example) that may have come to the Realms later than the Mulhorandi deities, they've established their worship all across Faerūn.
Note that (according to Garen) both Tempus and Lathander would not simply "subsume" the other deity and take over his portfolio, but rather merge with him. This would result in a mix of personalities, and Garen lists both of these deities adopting a new alignment accordingly.
Great work, Garen! I think I like it a lot...   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 22:10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Horus-Re
Merges on a roughly equal basis with Lathander, becoming a LG greater power of the sun, rulership, renewal, beginnings, summer and youth. Possibly the next progression in the Greater God of the Sun stages.
I agree whole-heartedly with you on this Garen. Surely the recent interference along southern shores by the church of Bane will give Horus-Re some impetus to spread his own faith beyond its current borders.
I have long thought that Horus-Re might seek the mantle of the Highsun aspect of the tripartite sun god of Faerūn. I could see him (or his chuch) spreading the notion that Horus-Re is Amaunator returned, or perhaps that Amaunator had always been a northern fragment or alias of Horus-Re. I could even see Horus-Re changing his name to Amun-Re, which would echo the mythology of Earth where he came from. In Egypt, the god Amun merged with Horus-Ra (or Ra-Herakhty) in later dynasties to become Amun-Ra.
In Faerūn I think such a re-branding of his monicker might help sell himself to the greater Faerūnian culture as the proper heritor of the Sun portfolio.
Regardless of whether he changes his name or not, the only alternative would be for Horus-Re to dwindle away and/or return to his home world. For Horus-Re it must be grow or die, so I think it likely for him to make a big push to join with the Faerūnian pantheon on his own terms as a greater god, which should present an interesting challenge to the status quo in decades to come. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 22:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I don't think I'm completely comfortable with this. I'd like to see at least one of the Mulhorandi gods come out on top in a struggle against a faerunian god seeking to subsume them.
Not all of the above are 'struggles;' some merges are simply gods with many common aspects coming together, or gods who could not possibly avoid being absorbed--thanks to greater deific competition, a far smaller base of worship, and changes in How Things Work--leaving their spheres of influence in Faerūn. It's a slow process (I did say 200 years), and one that has been summarized greatly from what's likely to actually happen.
Certain gods are Faerūn-wide, and don't have any hope of being subsumed or supplanted (see also: Chauntea, Selūne, Mystra). The Mulhorandi pantheon is no longer supported by their status as god-kings, the restriction on direct competition for worship in Mulhorand has been removed, and their divine power is now directly connected to the strength of their worship--three ingredients in the recipe for divine downfall. There's too much corellation in portfolios for the Mulhorandi pantheon to remain even remotely intact.
Of course, were Myrkul to return as Lord of the Dead, it's entirely possible that Osiris would need to stick around to balance him out... |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 23:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
[quote]I could see him (or his chuch) spreading the notion that Horus-Re is Amaunator returned, or perhaps that Amaunator had always been a northern fragment or alias of Horus-Re. I could even see Horus-Re changing his name to Amun-Re, which would echo the mythology of Earth where he came from. In Egypt, the god Amun merged with Horus-Ra (or Ra-Herakhty) in later dynasties to become Amun-Ra.
Or maybe At'ar-Re?   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Drew.Davis
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2007 : 23:21:19
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Yes some faerunian dieties will fall and some Mulhorandi will fall... you guys should see their base structure as well as Unthur... they aint weak by any means.
Alignment changes might occur... havn't fully worked it out... I do very much appreciate ya'lls input... its given me alot to think about...
The Demihuman dieties are getting involved as well in my story line anyway with faerunian dieties calling in their allied support (old second edition gods books) |
The only job of the military man is to fix the mistakes of the politition! |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 10:47:19
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Don't tell me why ... but I have a strong feeling that we also will hear something back from Myrkul - Lord of bones. I suppose he will come back as lesser deity. But hey, that's only speculation and my own thought.
About the alignment changes of the deities it sounds good. Tempus should be a good chaotic good deity of war and Garagoss his evil counterpart. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 15:51:07
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| I don't know . . . what's left of Myrkul himself doesn't seem to want to be a deity again. He seems to be happy to just mess with people via the Crown of Horns. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 16:07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't know . . . what's left of Myrkul himself doesn't seem to want to be a deity again. He seems to be happy to just mess with people via the Crown of Horns.
Indeed. This has been explicitly stated. From the City of Splendors boxed set:
quote:
Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction).
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 May 2007 16:09:28 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 16:31:58
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I don't think it's really any surprise that Myrkul "enjoys" his current state. Being somewhat removed from under Ao's divine thumb would certainly have its advantages... especially for a former deity who still likes to meddle in mortal affairs -- fear and terror can still be powerful "weapons of influence" in his arsenal, just as his unpredictability still would be.
As it is... I do like the idea of Myrkul in this state. If I had followed the path of the ToT in my campaign, 'tis likely this version of Myrkul would indeed be a part of my FR.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 May 2007 16:33:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 17:51:28
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| I personally love the idea of a fallen god that's still hanging around, causing trouble. And keeping him non-divine is a nice change, too, because it avoids that whole "Oh, I was powerful but now I'm not, so I've got to do anything to get back to where I was" cliché. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Drew.Davis
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 00:32:10
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I never thought about Myrkul... could be fun...
I was actually thinking along the lines of... Karsus
And Garagos is still CN he's just lost in his own madness... devoid of any real thought process... |
The only job of the military man is to fix the mistakes of the politition! |
Edited by - Drew.Davis on 07 May 2007 00:34:13 |
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Nighttfall
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2007 : 06:49:51
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| *thinks if this happens, Orcus and the other demon princes, along with the rest of the Archfiends are going to have FUN with this* |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2007 : 13:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Horus-Re
Merges on a roughly equal basis with Lathander, becoming a LG greater power of the sun, rulership, renewal, beginnings, summer and youth. Possibly the next progression in the Greater God of the Sun stages.
I agree whole-heartedly with you on this Garen. Surely the recent interference along southern shores by the church of Bane will give Horus-Re some impetus to spread his own faith beyond its current borders.
I have long thought that Horus-Re might seek the mantle of the Highsun aspect of the tripartite sun god of Faerūn. I could see him (or his chuch) spreading the notion that Horus-Re is Amaunator returned, or perhaps that Amaunator had always been a northern fragment or alias of Horus-Re.
Since Lathander never has confirmed nor denied that he is the reborn Amaunator or that he even has any connection to Amanautor at all, I can think of a third player: Amauntor himself returning to Faerun with the help of Daelegoth promoting his faith. We would then have three gods competing for the portfolio of the sun.
I don't know if this is canon, but the Wikipedia mentiones Amaunator as a dead deity whose corpse is drifting through the Astral Plane. This seems to imply that he is a unique deity with no connections to Lathander.
The rebirth of Amaunator would undoubtedly let the Sunmasters reconsider their loyalties, and maybe some other believers of Lathander, too. They would left Lathander for Amauntor, weakening the faith of the Morninglord. If Horus-Re had indeed spread the notion that he is Amaunator returned, or perhaps that Amaunator had always been a northern fragment or alias of Horus-Re, then it would be possible that the Mulhorandi god also would loose quite a number of his followers, being weakened, too.
This would probably force Lathander and Horus-Re to form an alliance against Amaunator defeating and absorbing him and his portfolio and merging then to the new LG greater god of the sun mentioned above in the first quote.
Just a few thoughts I had when follwing this thread. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
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War of Faiths
