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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 18:32:05
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The tethen (and thereby Talfir) pantheon I have used is (short version from notes and legends (also called soap opera)): Shar under the alias of the Dreamer, Selune under the name Lurua. These are the first deities. All of creation springs from these two. Silvanus came from them and with him the Dreamer gave birth to the Rider (Bhaal)and the Shadow Lord (Mask). Both were fed by their father, but had the nature of their mother. With Silvanus Lurua gave birth to Liira and Eldath. Then at the moment of the hateful separation of the two goddesses they gave birth to another son together, Tempus. In fear Lurua then gave birth to Torm to keep Tempus under control. In the shadow of the conflict between the two deities Sune came forward created from the forgotten passion that the two had used to create the universe. She is without limits or ambitions and turns no one away. In the darkness of the conflict between the two goddesses another couple was born and decided to separate right away to help humans find a way, these were the Seer Savras and the Hider Leira. These helped the human spirits, but Silvanus saw that humans needed a guide in his world also and created a son, Shandakul, from elements of all the other gods. At the same time the final godess was created, Siamorphe, a child of Silvanus and Torm (who thought the shape was that of Liira). She created the rules and codes of the nobles and rulers.
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Edited by - Jorkens on 14 Aug 2010 18:32:26 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 20:06:22
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I had a similar idea with the names, inspired by Eberron's Dark Six, makes the gods somehow more mysterious. Interesting, why the Dreamer for Shar? Lurua, has that something to do with Luruar?
Interesting that Mask and Helm already have a title-like name ...
e.g. some of the gods from the Talfiric game I merged with the Rise of the Runelords
Shar, the Nightsinger (Jhaamdathan name Nocs), was the main deity behind their Ebenfar/shadow era, no temples, no one knew about her
Selune, called the Moonlink (Talfiric name Moyale)
Chauntea, the Earthmother obviously (Maghara), having a darker side as the Bonebearess (sacrifices, a prehistoric remnant)
Tyche, the Doomfool (Talfiric name Gaeloo), an agnostic force
Finder/Kelemvor, the Boney King of Nowhere (Faudd Kalb), a dirgesinger
Dispater, the Feyforger (Dispatha), of wealth
Oghma, dead, druidic orders of Old Ologh, somewhat like the Old Faith of GH
Silvanus, shattered, exists as the Tree Spirits
Tempus, the Reaver (Scourda), a bit like Crom
Herne/Malar, the Wild Hunter (Carntul)
Auril, the Cold Star Witch (Ariin)
Sune Firelocks, Azlanti influence
Talona, the Variator (Tsigala), Gur influence
Talos, Atalox the Charger (Khal), venerated an artifact/armor that holds the force
Tyr/Siamorphe, the Mandate of Eons (Tiarphe), a Tethirian addition
etc. about fifty more
It did not have a soap opera, but there was a whole Celtic pantheon originally, they mostly died out (conflicts with the Netherese, Norse/Ragnarok and Jhaamdathan/Roman gods). |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 20:36:22
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I like it, especially the new names. Are the gods still separated into areas, with various names and worship forms or has the gods formed a more unified pantheon in the modern Realms?
For the most part I just tried to form human pantheons around the area that they were mainly worshipped and used as many of the official aliases and alternative names as I could. I will probably fill them out with new names if needed.
The soap opera part is just background for the standard myths and outer mythology. Explained quickly it usually sounds like a soap opera. They needn't be true, but all beliefs will be surrounded by legends and stories that serve different functions; I miss this in the Realms.
I generally just used "non-names" for evil deities because of the fear of mentioning their true name. Mask already has a "title" name as you say, but then I could use this one the more urban aspect found along the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Lurua is tied to Luruar yes, I thought of Luruar as a northern version of the deity that has been separated from Selune. In the Tethen pantheon the gods of magic are Shar and Lurua and were served by the 2nd ed. mystics. I will have to modify this a bit I think. The Dreamer; I used this because I always liked Shar, especially as she was not much used (before 3ed. ruined her)as a somewhat dubious power which tempted people with peaceful forgetfulness and tempted those that wanted to forget. All the evil powers should have a reason to be revered outside of the "I want power, whoa,whaa, haaa!!!" side and thats hers. Myrkul has the fall and with it some agricultural elements, Auril might give shelter in the snow, Umberlee as the sea is also a feeder etc. There was a kit in the Priests and wizards of the Realms that concerned neutral clerics that tried to help those with sorrow and that might have been the background for the idea, but I cant remember any more. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 08:33:32
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That part isn't much different from canon, there were different, separated ''Earthly'' pantheons in the past, like the Norse gods for Northmen, Finnish for Kalmyks, Greek for Chessenta. Now there is one over-pantheon that has all the portfolios, it was a compact made by the surviving gods in Cynosure. The portfolios are divided to the immortals, and then locally in each culture an immortal is represented by a few or all of its portfolios. If an immortal is influential in an area then it's considered a ''god'', with less influence a ''demigod'', or nothing. E.g. in the Talfiric culture there is an explorer type immortal with bronze age origins called the Forefather (Valka). His portfolios are ventures, exploration, caving, mining, salt, fishing, ships, woodworking, wind, travel, mounts, shepherds, guidance, discovery, cartography, prosperity, skill. In the Northmen cultures he is Valkur, and local priests focus on maritime portfolios, in the Gurian cultures as the Rider of Winds, the travelling part is the dominant.
I agree about the evil gods, they need to have a human side too, or at least lie about it like Shar. Myrkul, that is an interesting part about him having an agricultural/the Reaper side, I also added dust, desert, famine and drought to his portfolios, dominant in the south. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 10:03:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I agree about the evil gods, they need to have a human side too, or at least lie about it like Shar. Myrkul, that is an interesting part about him having an agricultural/the Reaper side, I also added dust, desert, famine and drought to his portfolios, dominant in the south.
I would also think that the Fall aspect would be more important the further north one went. In the south the people would not be that dependant on the mercy of the season and the weather and Myrkul would there take on a more uniform nature as a god of Death. But having Myrkul play a role in the seasons and nature brings forward some questions about his relationship to Silvanus; as nature is cyclic and all seasons play a role, is it reasonable that the clergy of Silvanus looks upon Myrkul as an enemy? Wouldn't harvest rituals and prayers for the crops have to involve both faiths? They may not like each other, but I cant see their relationship being violent in areas where Myrkul serves a role among the farmers. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 12:53:27
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Right, the Fall aspect would appear in the areas with moderate climate, in the south wet and dry seasons would influence how the locals view Myrkul. It depends individually (alignment), and in some areas the followers of Myrkul and Silvanus would be enemies, e.g. I think Thay or Calimshan, generally there they'd focus on necromantic portfolios. In the North, the chance increases there'd be more open-minded people who ignore the undeath part and concentrate on the ''natural cycles'' portfolios. Then there could be people like the Dustmen from Planescape, they'd fit in the eastern Buddhist-like cultures.
According to 4e lore Myrkul was from Murghom, they remind me of Howard's Turanians, so there locally he could be similar to Erlik. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 12:10:28
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Out of the deities specifics, but concerning the origins and location of the Talfir:
Markustay, have you seen that there is a magical tower in the Sunset Mountains in "Realms of Infamy" which was described in the "Talfirian Eddas"? The short story The Walls of Midnight, by Mark Anthony, says "The eddas tell many legends of these mountains, and the now-vanished people who once dwelt here, the Talfirc."
At the very beginning of The Walls ... there is a little transpiction of the eddas, which are dated circa 342 DR. The tower is named Gurthang, and it was magically buit by the mage Ckai-el-Ckaan. Have you already seen this reference? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 22:30:32
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Not only have I seen the reference, I have also placed said tower on my FR maps (along with many other settlements/ruins/etc in the Tunlands region).
The name of the mage is beyond goegraphic recognition. 
There is an ancient power underneath the Tunlands, one that manifests in odd and mysterious ways. At least that's the feeling I get - it is/was a heavily settled and high-magic region. One of the most infamous battles of the Crown Wars took place there, but I feel that whatever lies beneath that region is MUCH older then the Elves or Talfir. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 01:18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not only have I seen the reference, I have also placed said tower on my FR maps (along with many other settlements/ruins/etc in the Tunlands region).
The name of the mage is beyond goegraphic recognition.
There is an ancient power underneath the Tunlands, one that manifests in odd and mysterious ways. At least that's the feeling I get - it is/was a heavily settled and high-magic region. One of the most infamous battles of the Crown Wars took place there, but I feel that whatever lies beneath that region is MUCH older then the Elves or Talfir.
Would you be willing to think that what it is that is much older might be the remnant of a god? Or were you thinking something more sinister? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 21:30:15
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Not sure - perhaps an entombed primordial, or even a 'shattered' primordial. We have everything from Creator races (Batrachi) to Giants (Cloud kingdom and others) to demi-humans (Elves and Dwarves) to Goblinoids (Orcs and Goblins of Hlundadim) to magically powerful humans (Netherease and Thaeravel) to goddess's (Talona and Kiputytto) all interested in the region, for whatever reason. Whatever it is, it is definately evil, or at least connected enough to evil (shadow?) to cause 'taint' (note that Darkhold is also on the very border of that region). If the Talfir are indeed the race that made-up Thaeravel, which makes the most sense, then their 'shadowy' past could be the tie-in we need. What were those primordial shadow-beings called? Shadvari? Something like that? Maybe they are the connection we need.
If Netheril was primarilly using the Weave (Arcane) magic, and the Thaeravelites were using Shadow-magic (although their alabaster towers seem out-of-place then), then that war between them could have just been one more battle in the war of Light and Darkness. On the other hand, what if the Netherease started with shadow-magic? What if the knowledge they stole from the Thaeravelites was about the weave and arcane magic, thus setting them on a different path? Re-painting the Netherease as inherently evil is something I find distasteful (too much like what they did with Superman and the Kryptonians), but it does seem to fit with the way WotC is going with them.
Maybe the Terraseer was told to steer the Netherease to Thaeravel, and Mystryl sacrificed the poor Thaeravelites to insure the Netherease had Arcane magic in their hands. That would be a damn good reason why Shar wanted them back so bad - she probably had big plans for them, which would have been thwarted if they started to use 'other magic' then hers. Deities using mortals as pawns is nothing new, and certainly not anything those two would worry about in their 'cosmic struggle'.
In that scenario, we have the Talfir/Thaeravelites as the 'defenders of Arcane magic' against the shadows - wish I had read the Shadowking novel so I knew which way to spin this. Either way, they may have been charged to keep hidden whatever 'shadowy' secrets lie within that region, and that is what the Netherease (prompted by Shar?) were after.
Still trying to figure out the Terraseer's part in all this - perhaps he was Mystryl's first chosen? 'Teraseer' literally means 'Earth Sage', or 'World watcher' even.
Now, if the Tunlands is actually the remnant of an ancient crater (which it does resemble), then the 'fallen primordial' scenario works perfectly. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2010 21:49:49 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2010 : 00:52:24
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The Netherese were never aligned, they were simply self-absorbed and possessed of a conceit and arrogance that was one of the more acute expressions of humanity's singular ability to "grow" in ways that the demihumans of the Realms have never been able to match.
They had some "boosts" along the way. They were clearly manipulated by the sarrukh to be a weapon against the phaerimm and fostered by the elves of Eaerlann in an attempt, I think, to atone for a bit of elven guilt regarding the damage and devastation the Crown Wars wrought on the lesser races. Similarly, I think the elves in their arrogance believed that they could "advance" the Netherese and yet still keep them respectful and clear about their place in the racial pecking order (i.e. not as good as elves). It was a paternalistic and naive attitude which failed abjectly - but one which the elves of Faerūn have exhibited toward humans throughout the history of the Realms.
I also like to think that the Netherese "always had it in them" to be powerful in magic. That is, as with Thaeravel, they had talents that just needed to mature and be honed. Why were they so? I think it has a lot to do with the hegemony of the dragons in the time before the First Flowering and I postulate that the Netherese were an offshoot of a dragon-ruled, human realm where the dragon(s) in question intentionally identified and bred strong magic traits in their servants to use them as guardians (a dragon's got to sleep, right?) and weapons against other rival dragons. They were also probably used in that fashion in the dragon wars against the giants.
Richard Lee Byers in his short story contained in "Realms of the Dragons" touched on this situation - with some "irregularities" and without in my view giving much detail or thought as to how the dragon kingdoms existed and functioned at that time.
I think also a lot of people place way too much emphasis on the Shar/Selune, light v. dark, good v. evil trope as a catalyst for events, history et. al. I prefer to keep things simpler and not use over-arching themes to guide what occurred "way back". Evil people never think that they are evil and good people are never as good as they think either. As Ed has attempted to do all of his published life, the Realms demands nuances, planning and above all a miasma comprised of many shades of gray which encompasses the whole shebang.
Anyway, I'm meandering here, so I'll leave off. Thanks for getting me thinking about the Realms. It's always so much fun.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 25 Aug 2010 00:58:32 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2010 : 03:55:01
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Meant to respond to this a long time ago, but got distracted. I have been thinking about the human proto-pantheons for a long time. To the best that I can reconstruct it, the Talfiric pantheon consisted of:
Auril, Chauntea, Lathander, Malar, Sune, Talos, Tempus, Umberlee, & Valkur. This includes the gods of Fury (Talos, Auril, Malar, and Umberlee). Valkur is an ascended human that became Umberlee's nemesis, so his arrival was late in the game. Tempus and Talos seem to be aspects or fragments of the original gods of war and destruction. Talos was recently revealed as a human aspect/fragment/alias of Gruumsh.
Loviatar, Kiputytto, and Mielikki are Finnish gods that interloped in the distant past, probably with a group of Finns that wandered through a portal/gate/rift from Earth. Loviatar and Mielikki were absorbed into the pantheon of the North. Kiputytto was absorbed into Talona.
In addition, some native gods of the Realms seem to be multi-pantheonic. It is likely that Jergal and later Myrkul were known to the Talfir as the god(s) of Death. Selūne, Shar and Mystryl/Mystra were likely also known among the Talfir.
The Fey gods of the High Forest also seemed to become revered by humans in the area and so entered into the pantheon of the North at some point. The Talfir may have known Shiallia, Lurue and Tappan.
Herne was probably not known to the Talfir, as he was killed by Malar just prior to Araushnee's revolt circa -30,000 DR. Herne, however, appears to have been a Brythonic deity, an interloper from Earth who may have come over with Oghma and Silvanus. I like to think that Selūne brought them over during the War of Light and Darkness to aid her. After Shar traveled through Shadow to other worlds, possibly including Greyhawk, returning with fiends and dark deities to wage war on Selūne and Chauntea, Selūne took to the Infinite Staircase, which connects to her palace in the Gates of the Moon, and sought aid from good aligned deities of other worlds. I think she stumbled upon Oghma of the Celtic Pantheon of Earth, who gave her wise counsel and helped her to recruit Silvanus from his own pantheon, and possibly the Master of the Hunt, all three of whom are mentioned in the 1st edition Deities & Demigods sourcebook as part of the Celtic Pantheon, although it is not for certain that the Master of the Hunt is the same as Herne, but it seems likely.
I don't know if Oghma and Silvanus were known to the Talfir. There is lore to support that they were part of the human pantheon known either in Jhaamdath or nearby in the Chondalwood area. Silvanus is strongly associated with the Chondalwood. But Mielikki has strong associations with Silvanus, so that could mean Silvanus was known to the Talfir. But then again, it might simply be that Mielikki became associated with Silvanus at a later date, after the Chondathan diaspora which brought huge influxes of Chondathan migrants to the Heartlands and parts North in the centuries after the fall of Jhaamdath.
Oghma and Silvanus don't seem to have many old temples in the North. If the locations of their major temples are any indication, they seem to have more of a locus in the South including Tethyr, Amn, Impiltur,the Vilhon Reach, the Vast, the Dale Lands and areas around the Sea of Fallen Stars. This indicates to me that their worship was associated with Jhaamdath/and the Chondathans who spread their faiths outwards to far flung realms as a result of the diaspora.
Suné I have long thought was the daughter of Selūne and Lathander. She has his red hair, and seems very close to Selūne, even gaining some of Selūne's portfolio. I suspect Suné was "born" fairly recently--that is in the past 1600 years or so, possibly after the Fall of Netheril. To the extent that Lathander was likely born, or reborn sometime after the Fall, then if he is indeed Sunés father, she would also have to be "born" (or ascended) after the Fall.
There was some thought that Suné was an aspect of Venus, immigrated from Earth. Proponents of that theory point to her portfolio and the fact that her name spelled backwards is Venus (minus the "V"). While I find this theory intriguing, I am skeptical. If she WERE an aspect/fragment of Venus, it is possible that she interloped with the peoples from Graeco-Roman Earth, brought in as slaves by the Imaskari to populate Chessenta. While there is no record of the Greek/Roman gods coming to Faerūn in the manner that the Mulan deities did, it could be that Venus managed somehow. There was a god barrier erected by the Imaskari that probably prevented the Greek gods from interloping, but that is not to say that they could not have had an abortive attempt, some sort of invasion that was repelled by the Imaskari but left a racial memory that persisted and nurtured into weak fragments.
Suné could possibly then be a fragment of Venus/Aphrodite. Gond then, could possibly be a fragment of Hephaestus/Vulcan. Melith/Melil could possibly then be a fragment of Apollo. And Tyche may have interloped with them at that time.
Although, Tyche could well have interloped at a much earlier date, and in fact, I think there is good reason to think that Tyche came over much, much earlier as a favor to Selūne to help fight in the War of Light and Darkness. In fact, it may be that her luck turned the tide for Selūne and Chauntea and prevented Shar and her fiendish forces from winning the war. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2010 : 09:40:51
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Considering Thaeravel, I remember from somewhere that their sorcery orignated from having draconic blood, it's possible that they descend from the realm mentioned in Realms of Elves. The draconic alphabet of Loross would be then a part of knowledge ripped from their brains by the Netherese wizards.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
At the very beginning of The Walls ... there is a little transpiction of the eddas, which are dated circa 342 DR. The tower is named Gurthang, and it was magically buit by the mage Ckai-el-Ckaan. Have you already seen this reference?
That's weird, Gurthang is a sword from Silmarillion, the eddas are from the Northmen culture, skaldic not bardic, and 342 DR is even after the fall of Ebenfar.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
... The Talfir may have known Shiallia, Lurue and Tappan.
Do you think that the Talfiric culture reached that far into the North? Did it include Athalantar, or that was Netherese/Northmen population? The faiths in Athalantar were Chauntea, Malar, Tyche, Mystra, Silvanus, Lathander, Helm, Sune, Tyr, Tempus, the nature deities and old, forgotten gods.
Personally I think they spread like Celts, and Silvanus is a Chondathan (Roman/Etruscan) name that prevailed over Sucellos and others. That is the reason I prefer the Realms similar ''Earth-2'', a lot easier and believable than to have the interloper gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Oghma and Silvanus don't seem to have many old temples in the North. If the locations of their major temples are any indication, they seem to have more of a locus in the South including Tethyr, Amn, Impiltur,the Vilhon Reach, the Vast, the Dale Lands and areas around the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Imo that is not an indication, but they do have plenty of temples there http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/temples.htm
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2010 : 16:40:05
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Oh, I agree it's not proof, but it is certainly an indication. One would expect that the areas where the faith originated would have the oldest temples and shrines. As the faith spread outward you get newer temples and less well-established shrines. Places without temples or shrines are probably not the place of origin of the faith.
I have always wanted to map the temples of all the gods and see if I could draw any conclusions about the breadth and extent of their early faith.
The Chondathan diaspora seems like a good mechanism for promulgating the gods that they worshipped. Other populations were less mobile. So if you see a pattern of far-flung, diffuse temples with a concentration in the South or around the Sea of Stars, that seems indicative (to me at least) of a Chondathan origin of the faith.
Of course, some gods are multi-pantheonic. Selūne, Shar, Mystryl/Mystra, and Jergal (or Myrkul who replaced him) being the big ones. They could have temples anywhere due to their singular place in the cosmology. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2010 : 23:04:32
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I would say Silvanus is a 'Dathite' (my designator for those early Mediterranean Immigrants) name for an earlier Talfiric god.
As for Oghma, I'm thinking he was an early edition to the Talfiric pantheon, probably introduced when the Elves (NOT Eladrin) first came to Abeir-Toril. That would make Oghma a fey deity (which better explains his early multi-spheric nature). I'm picturing the elves meeting the primitive human hunter-gatherer culture (the Cortae), who teach them about written language, and thus pass-on the knowledge of Oghma to those pre-Talfiric people. Herne (as Cernunnos) may have also been added at that time (and most-likely took the place of beast-totems, some of which still survive).
If most of the Celtic pantheon were actually fey deities (ascended Le'Shay), that would be a great way to explain why they are present on many worlds, as are the seldarine. I picture 'Faerie' being a crossroads - an in-between type of transitive plane - that would allow for a great deal of cultural and deific cross-pollination.
Looking at the Celtic Pantheon, and the Irish/Gaelic myths in particular, it would be quite easy to create a history of the fey that would include quite a bit of what we are discussing in multiple threads. For instance, take all of those pre-human peoples - many of which are already in D&D - and turn 'Mythic Ireland' into the plane of Faerie; a demi-plane that was made as a miniature copy of the Fey homeworld, Abeir-Toril. Then say the Earth-Mother was 'The Goddess', who's lost name was Danu, and the Tuatha Dé Danann - literally 'the people of the goddess Danu' - become the Fey (Le'Shay), and you can get everything to fit. In that scenario, the Fey do not create the feywild, but rather take it and re-name it for themselves.
What if the Feywild (Hy Bresail?) was really a demiplane originally created by Annam, or his sons, to imprison the Giant-kin? 
That would explain why the Tautha De' Danan had to take the land by force, first from the Firbolgs, and then the Fomorians. The Voadkyn would have avoided this fate (because their siring was forever in doubt), and the Verbeegs may have avoided it as well by becoming servants to their giant half-brothers (they are known for their treachery). The only problem I see with this is the timeline, but since I think Ostoria was around much longer then most think, and I also happen to think the Fey left long after the other 'Creators' fell, it works for me.
The myths are known in Ireland for the same reason why they would be known in similar form on many worlds - because Faerie and the fey are connected to so many worlds, and their history becomes known to the mortals there, who apply it all to the world they occupy.
As time goes on, and the eternal Fey lose contact with their prime material origins, many of their leaders ascend and become deities themselves, like Titania and Oberon. This is how I think the entire Seldarine (and parts of the anti-Seldarine and goblinoid/Orcish pantheons) came into existence. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2010 17:27:15 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 01:34:45
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Well, I am sorta fond of the idea that the reason Ed called Toril the Forgotten Realms, is that it used to have a lot of connections (gates, rifts, portals, etc.) with Earth, and that there was a degree of interaction between the two worlds in the past. It seems to me that where Ed brought Earth gods directly over into the realms, and preserved their Earth culture names, instead of changing their names to something more Faerūnian, I think he did so intentionally as an indication that those gods were interloper deities from Earth. He had the 1E Deities & Demigods book and the names he ported over were straight out of the pantheons from that book. Ed knew what he was doing and made deliberate choices.
The Celtic pantheon was pretty well established on Earth (D&D Earth anyway), and I like to think that the mechanism for Oghma, Silvanus, and Herne entering the Realms, was either that they were brought over by Celtic immigrants from Earth who accidentally wandered through a portal, or were invited in by Selūne when, after initial losses in the War of Light and Darkness, she took to the Infinite Staircase and brought back divine allies of her own.
The Infinite Staircase connects Selūne's palace in the Gates of the Moon to every world in the multiverse. It has to be there for a reason, right? She has surely used it to explore other worlds and make allies there.
To me, that's the simplest explanation. I am a little leery of connecting Oghma and Silvanus to the Feywild. Though I can't rule it out of course. But in Celtic myth, I am unaware of any specific connections between Oghma, Silvanus and the Tuatha De Dannan. For that reason, I don't think the Celtic gods fit well with a Feywild origin. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 02:42:23
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Cernunnos was the original "God the Hunt" in the Celtic "pantheon" (loose term that)...and he evolved into Cern and then Herne.
Cernunnos was a definite Fey god. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 04:08:38
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Well, in the Deities & Demigods book, in the Celtic pantheon, he is named only as The Master of the Hunt. He was a human god, no indication of fey origin.
Herne in British folklore is more of a ghost than a fey, thought to be derived from the Gaulish Cernunnos. But in some versions of the story he is a mortal man killed by a stag.
Cernunnos, the horned god, does not appear as a deity in D&D, at least I cannot find a mention of him in a D&D source. Even in Earth lore, I don't really find a connection between Cernunnos and the fey.
Where are you getting the connection that Herne and Cernunnos were related to the fey? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 05:00:03
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I'm not sticking strictly to the Deities and Demigods is how.
Cernunnos was the Lord of the Horned Serpent as well. Most pictures of him depict him as a half-man and half-animal; thus my connection of him to the Fey.
Such pictures as:
http://peeringintodarkness.com/?p=1320
Also here you will find this quote:
quote:
Master of the Sacrificial Hunt and Guardian of the Gateway of the Underworld, and Keeper of the Gates of Death, Cernunnos commands sacrificial purification as ruler of all nature and the four elements of force, earth, air, fire and water, as well as the four cardinal points of the compass while representing the darker aspects of nature. In a number of descriptions, Cernunnos is described as being older than the Ancient Ones, so much so that our evolutionary ancestors perceived him as a shape-shifting god of the hunt.'"
This is but one of many article references I have concerning Cernunnos that makes me feel as he may have been Ed Greenwood's inspiration for Malar. Especially the last "shape-shifting god of the hunt."
I've spent more hours than I care to admit doing research on this; and I've come to the conclusion that I can't simply limit myself to the Deities and Demigods book.
EDIT:
Forgot to mention that many fail to realize that the realms of Faerie are deeply twined with the world of Celtic myth...and that alone brings any Celtic god closer to relationships with the Fey. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 30 Aug 2010 05:02:32 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 17:22:00
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Well, although I agree one need not stick strictly to D&D sources when spicing up deities with mythological flavor, I think Ed was specifically drawing on the 1E Deities & Demigods sourcebook when he brought such gods as Oghma, Silvanus, Mielikki, Loviatar, Tyr, etc. into the Realms. As such, I think it is important to be aware of the context of the material Ed was drawing from and also to be respectful of Ed's authorial intent.
What's interesting is that the "Celtic Pantheon" in the Deities & Demigods sourcebook is not all that accurate with respect to real-world Celtic culture, but rather represents a hodgepodge of Irish, Scottish, Brythonic, Gaulish, and even Roman influences. Silvanus, for instance, is actually a Roman god, with roots in pre-Roman Etruscan culture. We can assume then that each pantheon of D&D Earth represents some kind of idealized mono-culture, an amalgam of different ideas selected buffet-style from diverse peoples some separated far from each other both geographically and chronologically.
Note that in the 1E D&D Celtic pantheon, the god of the Dead is Arawn, not Cernunnos. Although, it is interesting to note that in Original D&D in the supplement Gods, Demigods & Heroes, the Celtic god of the dead is listed as Donn; so there was a change between Original D&D and 1st Edition. Ether way, he probably didn't/couldn't interlope because Toril already had a well-established god of the dead. Or if he did interlope, his faith didn't take and died out, or was out-competed by the native deity of death.
Herne is a special case, I think. The first time he is mentioned is in Evermeet so far as I am aware (and I could be wrong on this point, so if anyone knows any prior references to Herne, please share them.) If that is the case then Herne was introduced by Elaine Cunningham. I don't know if she was working off notes supplied by Ed, or if that was her own idea. Herne is not found in any D&D sourcebook that I know of. Perhaps she could provide some insight into the sources she was drawing from. Not a lot of detail exists on him. He shows up briefly and Malar kills him and that is the end of his story and about all we know of him.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 17:41:43
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Wow, just made an interesting connection. The god of blacksmithing in the D&D Celtic pantheon is Goibhne. I had always thought that Gond was sort of a Hephaestus/Vulcan analog. But note that the name Gond is similar to Goibhnie, linguistically anyway. You could easily derive the name Gond from Goibhnie through linguistic drift over time. Gond also has the alias of Zionil. The name "Zionil" could also easily be derived from the name "Goibhnie" by applying rational sound mutations and phonetic changes as the name travels through different languages/dialects over time.
And note also that Oghma is Gond's superior. And one of Gond's avatars is a burly, red-hued smith, which seems similar to Goibhnie's description in Deities & Demigods and Gods, Demigods & Heroes as a blacksmith and a "hugely proportioned man." His name, portfolio, visage and his subordination to Oghma may be a strong indication that Gond is actually an aspect of Goibhnie, a member of the Celtic pantheon that interloped to Toril with Oghma and Silvanus (and maybe the Master of the Hunt) back in the day, and whose name and countenance have mutated with time far from his original incarnation. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 18:05:56
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First off, deities and demi-gods is just plain wrong on many counts, and though it still remains one of my favorite all-time D&D sources, the info contained therein is far from accurate.
For instance, separating the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons is like separating the Greek and Roman ones; YES, there are certain differences, and region-specific gods, but for the most part the pantheons are just re-named local versions of the same thing.
Second, you appear to be a bit of an 'Earth bigot' Gray. Why do you assume that all of those gods originated on Earth? Why couldn't certain powers - most especially ones like the fey - be non- sphere specific? Why is Earth mythology so much more valid then FR mythology? is one 'more true' then the other?
I've hinted in my Kara-Tur material that the Oriental pantheon(s) did NOT originate on Earth, but rather in Jadespace, and emigrated from there to both Earth and Toril (and Oerth, and many others). In fact, in the stuff I was working on for the primordial kalmyk empire, I had it where the Finnish myths actually took place on Toril, and through religious dogma the tales were re-told on Earth. The places named in those ancient tales have no RW counterparts, ergo they could have happened anywhere.
You of all people Gray I would expect to be able to see 'outside the box' - gods are NOT sphere-specific - they go where they choose, or where they are invited to go, or sometimes even where they are prompted to go by worshipers appearing in those spheres (as was the case in the Mulan pantheons). I do not identify deities from Earth mythologies as 'Earth Gods' - the demons and devils do not have any such restrictions, so why would the divine? Extra-planer being are just that - from THE PLANES, and can appear anywhere, and don't necessarily favor one world/sphere/dimension over any other (in most cases).
Ergo, ALL of the folklore and myths associated with any particular religion or pantheon should be applicable, since we can't really be sure about where they occurred in the multiverse. For instance, suppose Hercules really performed his labors on Toril? Or some other world? Either way, the tales of his deeds would be told by his followers, with perhaps some local lore added-in for flavor.
Anyhow, you can't really dis-associate the fey from Celtic myth - the Tuatha De'Dannan were most assuredly fey, and they are an integral part of Celtic folklore (most notably in Gaelic, but they appear in all of them under various names).
I can not pick-and-choose what I use and what I don't use when I think about deities and the planes - I have t use it all (its part of my OCD). I notice that in some instances you prefer the 'closed sphere' model for cosmologies, and other times you discuss an over-cosmology, but I do not differentiate the two. Any discrepancies between the versions of one being in a sphere and the same being in another sphere I simply chalk up to how their worshipers perceive them (which includes their sometimes disparate myths).
Also, Ed never said that Faerun was called 'the Forgotten Realms' merely because of the portals to Earth - he said it was because Toril contained portals to many, MANY other worlds. Toril itself is some sort of prime-Material 'cross-roads', and I have theorized that it was perhaps meant to be a laboratory at the beginning of time, for various gods to design beings and animals before sending them to specific worlds (which is why Toril has everything). That would make Abeir-Toril much like The well World from the novels by Jack Chalker, so its not my idea really. Or it could just be that the Moonwells/Pools (which act as some sort of cosmic 'divine conduits') have something to do with Toril's abundance of planer pathways.
However you spin it, Toril is somewhat unique in the universe, in that it is a 'gateway' to everywhere, and all manner of things and beings can found therein. To say such a marvelous, fantastical place is 'beholden' to mundane Earth for it's gods is, IMHO, disingenuous to Ed's design. Some deities may originate on one particular prime material world, but that doesn't mean the are 'from there' - once they ascend, they are part of the planer cosmology. I site Kiaransalee as a very good example of this.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2010 18:31:50 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 18:28:33
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Here is one other, slightly far-fetched idea that I will toss out. Assume that Selūne, by means of the Infinite Staircase, brought members of the Celtic pantheon (among others) over from Earth to help her fight the War of Light & Darkness against Shar, who was similarly armed with fiends and dark gods that she brought over through deepest Shadow. We know that "Death" emerged as a god/power/entity/concept in the Realms as a result of this war. Presumably the Fugue Plane was created as a result of the War by treaty among the gods signed at Cynosure as a neutral place for the orderly sorting and claiming of the dead souls belonging to all the gods.
We know that the steward of the Fugue Plane is an important role in the cosmology, an office held by one being at a time. Currently held by Kelemvor, prior to him Cyric, and Myrkul before him, Jergal before him, was perhaps held by Sehanine during the First Flowering, and certainly would have been held by Null during the 6,000 years or so the dragons held dominion over Faerūn. I assume it was held by an Aearee deity before him, possibly Phraarkillorm, patron of the vulchlings. Prior to him, it could have been held by an aspect of the World Serpent, some sort of Death Snake, not sure if Dendar ever held it, I would tend to doubt that, as Dendar was not really an aspect of the World Serpent or connected to him in anyway (as far as I am aware) and doesn't seem to be the type to be put in charge of something so important. But I can't rule it out. I imagine before him it was a god from the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race, some kind of Death Squid, or kraken. In fact, Panzuriel may fit the bill, the kraken deity, who is very, very old and who currently still has murder as part of his portfolio.
Anyway, all of this was just to point out that the office of the steward of the Fugue has had many occupants going back through history. However, we don't know who the first was. I have always just referred to him as "The First Lord of the Dead." We know that "Death" emerged as a concept in the War of Light & Darkness because we are told this in the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook on p.260 which states that Selūne & Shar fought "and from their divine conflict, the deities of war, disease, murder, death, and other fell forces were created."
Note that "Death" and "Murder" were two different gods, but eventually the two portfolios merged under one entity. I think that is very telling.
So if Selūne brought over members of the Celtic pantheon, then perhaps an aspect of Arawn, the Celtic god of the dead came over too, and maybe he was put in charge of the newly created Fugue as the first god of the dead. I suspect that, in short order, the god of Murder killed off Arawn's aspect and consolidated the portfolios under his own aegis and took charge of the Fugue, keeping it for himself. Arawn's name has since been forgotten in the Realms.
I wonder if Panzuriel was the first god of murder? He could have been. Maybe he was the one who killed Arawn (or the first Lord of the Dead, whoever he may have been). Although it's just as likely that there were others before Panzuriel whose names are lost to time. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 18:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
There was some thought that Suné was an aspect of Venus, immigrated from Earth. Proponents of that theory point to her portfolio and the fact that her name spelled backwards is Venus (minus the "V"). While I find this theory intriguing, I am skeptical. If she WERE an aspect/fragment of Venus, it is possible that she interloped with the peoples from Graeco-Roman Earth, brought in as slaves by the Imaskari to populate Chessenta. While there is no record of the Greek/Roman gods coming to Faerūn in the manner that the Mulan deities did, it could be that Venus managed somehow. There was a god barrier erected by the Imaskari that probably prevented the Greek gods from interloping, but that is not to say that they could not have had an abortive attempt, some sort of invasion that was repelled by the Imaskari but left a racial memory that persisted and nurtured into weak fragments.
If you except the 4e changes, as you say you do, then Sune is Hanali Celanil.
Which of course works perfectly and backs-up everything I have said. The other pantheon in the same plane as Avandor is Olympus, who are also closely associated with fey creatures (think Dryads and centaurs). So of course, Aphrodite/Venus IS Hanali Celanil, who is also Sune Firehair. 
Just different names for the same ancient, Fey power. The fey pantheon is one of the oldest, and various members of it can be found in many others. Three Norse Gods are actually Vanir (Fey) - Frey, Freya, Njord, and it could even be that Freya is yet another incarnation of Aphrodite/Hanali/Sune. Also, the Goddess of the Tuatha De' Dannan is Danu, who is also a Vedic deity.
This is why I think of pantheons as merely local 'clubs' of deities - there is really only one group of gods, and how they band-together is dependent upon the world and the situation. In fact, the entire concept of a Faerunian pantheon is rather ridiculous, when you think about it - it is nothing more then a demographic collection of locally-worshiped deities consisting of small micro-pantheons (Gods of Fury, Gods of Nature, The dark Three, etc...).
The Orientals got it right, I think - all metaphysical beings are 'Kami' (spirits), which includes everything from small local spirits (fey) to over-powers like Ao. If you look at it that way, then the differences between gods/outsiders/spirits/fey is really nothing more then power-level, and how mortals perceive them. In my own over-cosmology, the only difference between a high power and a Will-O-Wisp (proto-fey) is their level of energy. Everything else is just 'baggage' mortals attach to them.
So don't think of Interlopers as 'Earth Gods' - think of them as multi-spheric entities that just happen to have avatars on both Earth and Toril.quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Wow, just made an interesting connection. The god of blacksmithing in the D&D Celtic pantheon is Goibhne. <snip>
Made that connection years ago, right after becoming a Realms DM. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2010 18:38:09 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 19:28:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, deities and demi-gods is just plain wrong on many counts, and though it still remains one of my favorite all-time D&D sources, the info contained therein is far from accurate.
True, no argument there. Perhaps you missed my post on p.2 of this thread above? Although, I don't think you should hold it's accuracy up to the standard of real-Earth lore. Rather, we could assume it is accurate to D&D Earth lore, or alternatively some kind of proto-Celtic pantheon that exists in the multi-verse that D&D Earth has somewhat diverged from.quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Second, you appear to be a bit of an 'Earth bigot' Gray. Why do you assume that all of those gods originated on Earth? Why couldn't certain powers - most especially ones like the fey - be sphere-specific? Why is Earth mythology so much more valid then FR mythology? is one 'more true' then the other?
Not an Earth bigot, I don't think. for instance, I believe that a lot of gods were brought over from Greyspace and the Great Wheel. I am only trying to draw conclusions based on things Ed has published or posted, and also comments from Eric Boyd who is sort of the second best authority about the gods after Ed himself. Eric Boyd said categorically that in his opinion the Mulan were brought over by the Imaskari from Earth, and that their deities came from Earth. I had asked him specifically on line in a forum if they couldn't have come over from "Mulanspace" or a world based on those cultures, and he said no, his intention was that they came from Earth. That's not cannon, of course, so there is some wiggle-room there, but it is pretty definitive in my book.
I certainly don't think that all gods originated on Earth. Clearly many are native to Faerūn, some did come from the Feywild, some came from Greyhawk's Great Wheel (Ed told us in a post that the Slaadi, for instance, are immigrants from the Great Wheel's plane of Limbo.) And I am open to the idea that some could have come from other worlds. But I think Ed's writings are strongly indicative that there have always been strong connections between Toril and Earth (D&D Earth) and that some gods at least did interlope from Earth.
Now, your idea about pantheons originating on another world and emigrating to both Toril and Earth respectively is certainly a valid hypothesis, and one I have considered myself. Probably one I used to favor, in fact, before Eric Boyd steered me back to Earth (so to speak). In fact, I think there is merit to your Jadespace idea.
I assure you I am not an Earth bigot, and am open to other ideas as to origins of gods, but Ed & Eric's posts and Ed's article "Down to Earth Divinity" from Dragon Magazine I take as strong support for the idea of an Earth origin.
And I would turn the question back on you: why are you prejudiced against Earth? When Occam's Razor points to an Earth origin as the simplest and most elegant answer, why not go with Earth?quote:
Anyhow, you can't really dis-associate the fey from Celtic myth - the Tuatha De'Dannan were most assuredly fey, and they are an integral part of Celtic folklore (most notably in Gaelic, but they appear in all of them under various names).
I don't necessarily agree with this. There is some support that in Irish myth, the Aos Si (or Aes Sidhe) descended from the Tuatha De Dannan, but I don't think you can say definitively that the Tuatha De Dannan were fey. Gods can create races that they are not members of. Plus the Tuatha De Dannan is specific to Irish mythology and not common to all branches of the celtic/gaulish peoples. Not to mention that the Tuatha De Dannan (as such) have no mention in the D&D sources regarding the Celtic pantheon, from which Ed Greenwood was drawing. I totally get that you want to link the Celtic gods to the fey, but I just don't find support for it in any D&D source or even much in real-world sources.quote:
To say such a marvelous, fantastical place is 'beholden' to mundane Earth for it's gods is, IMHO, disingenuous to Ed's design. Some deities may originate on one particular prime material world, but that doesn't mean the are 'from there' - once they ascend, they are part of the planer cosmology. I site Kiaransalee as a very good example of this.
Just to be clear, that is really not my position. I totally agree that Kiaransalee came from a world called Threnody. I agree with you that the Realms has links to lots of worlds, and may have been influenced by many worlds in some fashion--let's not forget Bane, we still don't know what world he came from! Mask also has canon links to other unnamed worlds. But my interpretation of Ed's authorial intent is that the Realms has strong links with Greyhawk and Earth and has had strong influences from both as a result of interaction between those worlds. And I think we need to honor that. That's all I'm saying. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 21:18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[quote]If you except the 4e changes, as you say you do, then Sune is Hanali Celanil.
Which of course works perfectly and backs-up everything I have said. The other pantheon in the same plane as Avandor is Olympus, who are also closely associated with fey creatures (think Dryads and centaurs). So of course, Aphrodite/Venus IS Hanali Celanil, who is also Sune Firehair.
My take on the Olympus/Arvandor situation was elaborated somewhat in my article for the Candlekeep Compendium about Brightwater. At the dawn of time, there was only one divine Realm in Toril's astral plane. The Gates of the Moon sat alone in the Astral Sea.
Shar of course lived in the Plane of Shadow. Actually, we don't know that she did, at first, she may have lived with Selūne at first, and then slunk off to Shadow after their falling out.
Then the two gave birth to Chauntea. Chauntea dwelt in the House of Nature, which probably split off from the Gates of the Moon as Chauntea grew to adulthood as it was so large, the Gates could not contain it. I imagine that the House of Nature may have echoed Toril below in some fashion, with terrain that resembled it's Torilian counterpart in some fashion "As above so below" and vice versa.
Selūne created the Sun, and he was given a realm in the House of Nature. But his heat burned Chauntea, and his realm was ejected to form it's own "plane," the Keep of the Eternal Sun.
Then the War of Light & Darkness began. Shar traversed Shadow to bring in demons, devils and yugoloths as mercenaries from Greyhawk's Great Wheel, as well as Gruumsh and possibly other gods, to wage War on her sister and daughter who had spurned her so by unilaterally creating the sun.
After massive initial losses, in desperation, Selūne took to the Infinite Staircase to seek allies on other worlds. She found Tyche whose luck led her to Oghma, whose wise counsel helped her to win the support of certain deities from the Celtic pantheon as well as Corellon and Moradin. Not to mention the Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin of Greyhawk. Aspects of whom all settled in Toril's Astral Plane following the conclusion of the War.
At the conclusion of the war, Cynosure was established as the meeting place of the gods. The Fugue Plane was created to sort the dead. And the Barrens of Doom & Despair was created as a place of imprisonment for war criminals. Talona primarily, maybe some others. I bet there are some Primordials imprisoned there. Kezef was imprisoned there for a time. The Yugoloths built their volcano in the Barrens, but myth has it that the Yugoloths were so objectionable to the other gods there, that they were ejected and split off to become their own plane, the Blood Rift (Players Guide to Faerūn p.146).
Likewise, the Archons established a Torilian version of Celestia, Demons founded the Abyss, Asmodeus built Baator, Guardinals took up residence in the House of Nature, and the Morwel's Court took up residence in the Gates of the Mooon.
At some point in the War, Chauntea engineered a defection by Annam and his kin, winning them over from the side of the Primordials through the affections of her handmaid Othea, a demi-goddess, the personification of a Torilian mountain known as Othea, known also to dwarves as Deronain in Auld Dwarvish and to humans as Sonnhild in ancient Thorass.
Annam and his brood left the Elemental Planes and came to dwell in the House of Nature in the environs of Othea's divine realm. Tyche erected (or claimed) her divine realm, nearby, a mountain which she called "Olympus" out of lack of originality, or perhaps in honor of her Earthly domain.
Now Corellon and his Seldarine also came to dwell in the House of Nature, and they came into conflict with the giant gods over territory. The Seldarine seized Arvandor from the giant gods (On Hallowed Ground, p.94) and is still littered with giantish castles and ruins to this day.
As a result of this conflict, Chauntea either kicked them all out, or the giants split their realm off from the House of Nature as a defensive measure to form the plane of Jotunheim, presumably taking Othea's divine realm, and whatever territory they could hang on to with them. Tyche and the Seldarine split their patch of land off to form Arvandor/Olympus in which they cohabited as a single plane for many millennia.
After Tyche was split, Tymora kept Tyche's realm, and Beshaba left to found her own realm in the Barrens of Doom & Despair, which she called the Blood Tor. I think Beshaba probably took off the top half of Olympus, claiming it as her own and took it down to the Barrens with her (a tor is a rocky hill). This left Tymora with a flat, roughly circular plateau, which she came to call "Fortune's Wheel," or simply her "Great Wheel" (not related to Greyhawk's Great Wheel).
Planescape supplements tell us that Brightwater as a city is very young. About 60 years old as of around 1370/1372 DR. I estimate that Brightwater was founded in 1312 DR, and I place it's founding at the festival of Cinaelos Cor, at Shieldmeet in the Year of the Griffon. I speculate that it was a mutual parting, and that Tymora, Suné and Liira split their realms from Arvandor with the aid of the Seldarine, like a communal barn-building. They took about half of Hanali Celanil's realm, and the river Brightwater east to Tymora's plateau (formerly Olympus) including Liira's realm.
After the split, Brightwater, as the new plane was known became a city, which included Tymora's Quarter of the Great Wheel, Suné's Heartfire Quarter, and Liira's Quarter of the Orange Lanterns.
Sharess (neé Bast) relocated her realm of Merratet from Heliopolis to Brightwater circa 1358 DR where it is known as Rapture.
Liira became steward of Waukeens realm during her long imprisonment at the hands of the demon prince Grazzt. In the Year of the Sword, 1365 DR, Lliira relocated Waukeens Marketplace Eternal from Oghma's House of Knowledge to Brightwater. This was short-lived. After Lathander transformed into Amaunator, and rekindled the Keep of the Eternal Sun, Waukeen relocated from Brightwater and reestablished the Eternal Marketplace in Amaunator's plane.
As for Suné being revealed as Hanali Celanil, that works for me. They were always close, portrayed as great friends or even lovers, and jointly sharing the Evergold fountain. I'm still very fond of the idea that Suné is Selūne's daughter by Lathander, which could still work, as Sehanine was revealed to be an aspect of Selūne. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 20:24:40
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Sometimes I re-read stuff I write and realize how badly I come-off, and I apologize. I'm on a 'borrowed' computer ATM and don't really have enough time to self-edit. 
I am not against Earth, and certainly not against GH and it's wheel - I started out as a GH GM.
It just seems odd to me, that when you step back and look at the Great Wheel - THE over-cosmology for 2 editions - and realize MUCH of it is based around Earth's pantheons, it seems to be assigning far too much significance to 'Earth Gods', and that is why I lean toward the concept that deities are NOT world-specific. Once they ascend, they can freely walk between the worlds (unless blocked), so why would they limit their worship to just one world/sphere? Granted, locale-specific deities (like patrons of cities) would stick to one sphere, but those are almost always the lower-powered gods.
MANY of the gods from DD are at least Lower Powers, and quite a few are greater powers - why would they all be from a world with relatively low magic, like Earth? Now I'm not so nuts that I believe in the Great Wheel as a reality, so I know from a meta-gaming stand point all of those gods did indeed originate on Earth (even the Melnibonean, Cthulhu, and Newhon ones, technically), but in the D&D-verse it doesn't necessarily have to be so, and would make more sense if not.
I go to the Elric novels as a source - Ed drew heavily from Moorcock's cosmology. In those stories, Arioch and the other 'gods' appear differently depending on the world, plane, or situation for Elric (and others like Corum), yet it was always the same Arioch despite these differences. What that means to me is that LOCATION matters the most about how a divine being is perceived, and each world will have its own stories and myths about 'their' gods.
Have you ever seen how Lucifer is depicted in Christian art? And yet, he was described as THE most beautiful of God's creations. Our perception of him is changed by our religious beliefs, and therefor if he were to appear to us, that is what we would see. Other-worldly beings are as much slaves to their religions as mortals are, and can only work within the boundaries set by the dogma of local believers ('local', in this case, could mean an entire crystal sphere). Bizarrely enough, I will use the awful comedy Dogma as a good interpretation of this - even god Herself had to follow 'the rules', as laid down by mortals. Mortal belief empowers all that which divine beings can do on any plane, which is why a smart god supports and nurtures it's church (and tries to grow it, even beyond the boundaries of the world it is on).
Anyhow, I am slipping into a tangent again - basically, deities are what we perceive them to be, and have abilities we expect them to have. On each world this will be different, and the religious parables, myths, and folklore will all represent this, even going so far as to say that the particular divine being has 'Earthly' origins.
Quite simply, humans are egotists, as are just about any other intelligent race, I imagine (no RW precedents here). Despite the fact that we live in a near-infinite universe we claim that "God made man in his own image" - pretty insulting to all the beings that probably live elsewhere in the cosmos. Of course we assign all the divine beings to our own crystal sphere/world, because we want it to be so. That doesn't make it the truth however.
If there really were a 'Great Wheel', and the whole thing was based on the pantheons we know, it makes far more sense that these beings were there all along, and Earth religions have just latched onto them over time. Otherwise, we are assigning and incredibly unbelievable significance to Earth itself.
Another assumption I make, BTW, is that we really don't know the names of any of these multi-spheric beings - what we call them is just a local 'alias'. It is the intent behind the usage which gets the deities attention, not the name itself. Ergo, 'Thor' is not Thor, and 'Anubis' is not Anubis, and 'Apollo' is not Apollo, etc... those names printed in DD (and L&L) and the Planescape material is simply how we know them, and since that material is presented to us here on Earth, hence the usage of those names.
Bottom line is, Gods are sphere-less - they are of the Outer Planes and belong to no single world, once they get beyond the demi-power level. The one claim to fame Earth has, if we pretend D&D were real for a moment, is that it is humanocentric, which is why almost all of our gods are anthropomorphic. Gruumsh would never appear as Gruumsh here, so we would have an Odin, or some other frightening god of fury and war (the Oriental ones come to mind). BTW, I am not a fan of Gruumsh-as-Odin, just using that as an example. I prefer to think Annam was really FR's Odin. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2010 20:31:28 |
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ripvw
Acolyte
0 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 04:13:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Cernunnos, the horned god, does not appear as a deity in D&D, at least I cannot find a mention of him in a D&D source. Even in Earth lore, I don't really find a connection between Cernunnos and the fey.
[url=http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/cernunnos]Cernunnos[/url] is described in Dragon #65, incidentally, which suggests that Silvanus is an aspect of him. Since Silvanus is essentially a Roman name appended to the Celtic Cernunnos, I would assume the two deities are or were originally one and the same. Herne might have been an earlier attempt by Cernunnos to establish himself within Realmspace, one that failed before he insinuated his Silvanus aspect instead.
I would not assume the Earth pantheons are so much more important in the Great Wheel than the pantheons of other worlds, by the by. Some of the planes seem to be named after them, but these names won't be shared by cultures that don't recognize those gods. There are many worlds, and so many pantheons that the gods of Earth are little fish in a huge pond. They're not worshiped solely on Earth, but neither are the gods of Oerth worshiped solely on their world, and there are plenty of other multi-spheric powers as well. Even so, I'm comfortable describing them as Earthly gods. But there are many Earths in the multiverse, some older than others. |
Edited by - ripvw on 28 Nov 2010 04:27:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 17:54:53
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Wow! A RipvW appearance!
If Gray, Shemmy, and Rip post in this thread, I am truly humbled and need to take a back-seat. I am a mere novice compared to their planer musings. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 09:01:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wow! A RipvW appearance!
If Gray, Shemmy, and Rip post in this thread, I am truly humbled and need to take a back-seat. I am a mere novice compared to their planer musings.
I hear ya! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Talfir
