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Schattenjäger
Acolyte
Norway
6 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 14:11:26
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While playing in the Forgotten Realms, you often come across characters that use foreign names, such as French and German ones. Once in a while, you also come across names using the German word "von" or the French "de" (both meaning "from", unless I'm mistaken) in between the first name and the surname. There's also the occasional "Mac".
In addition to the obvious example, Aribeth de Tylmarande, these are some names from the Ravens Bluff sourcebook: Alcides Von Tighe, Martin MacGreggor, Monique D'Starre and Lauren DeVillars.
Are there any rules regarding such names? Are French names used amongst Damaran characters and Scottish ones amongst Illuskan characters, for example?
Thanks.
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Edited by - Schattenjäger on 13 Apr 2007 14:13:45
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NiTessine
Acolyte
Finland
34 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 16:18:51
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I believe that "Mac" (or "Mc") is commonly used among the Ffolk of the Moonshae Isles, as is "O'".
The Raven's Bluff characters are probably old PCs of the Living City campaign that didn't quite follow Realmsian naming conventions. |
http://nitessine.wordpress.com/
Worlds in a Handful of Dice |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 17:13:10
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| The Realms does not use earth names or parts thereof in general, but some has slipped into the Realms through various products. Raven's Bluff is, as NiTessine mentioned, one of those sources. The Moonshaes were originally not designed for the realms and the naming there is therefore more "earth based" than the rest. Salvatore also has a tendency to use names or parts of names that makes one think of our world. In general these names stand out more or less like anachronisms when one looks at the usual Realms naming habits. In my opinion I should add. |
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Schattenjäger
Acolyte
Norway
6 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 17:21:42
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| I'm pleased to hear so - it never made much sense for French and German words to be included. I'll refrain from using them, then. Thank you. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 22:08:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Schattenjäger
I'm pleased to hear so - it never made much sense for French and German words to be included. I'll refrain from using them, then. Thank you.
About the only place where real world naming conventions apply would be the Moonshaes as mentioned, which would be for the most part Celtic. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 01:06:58
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| Ah, those Living City porn star names (Amber Lynn Thoden!). They no longer make them that way. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 01:57:37
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Yeah, the Raven's Bluff supplement seems to be fairly famous for "real worldish" names. I wouldn't say it can be used for great examples of Realms nomenclature.
I never liked Aribeth de Tylmarande as the name of the elven paladin in the Neverwinter Nights offical campaign. I like "Aribeth", but what the heck is "de Tylmarande" supposed to mean? It's not elvish, and it's certainly not very "Realmish" either. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Apr 2007 01:59:15 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 21:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Schattenjäger
While playing in the Forgotten Realms, you often come across characters that use foreign names, such as French and German ones. Once in a while, you also come across names using the German word "von" or the French "de" (both meaning "from", unless I'm mistaken) in between the first name and the surname. There's also the occasional "Mac".
In addition to the obvious example, Aribeth de Tylmarande, these are some names from the Ravens Bluff sourcebook: Alcides Von Tighe, Martin MacGreggor, Monique D'Starre and Lauren DeVillars.
Are there any rules regarding such names? Are French names used amongst Damaran characters and Scottish ones amongst Illuskan characters, for example?
Thanks.
The French government expressed "correct" practice for "de" regarding Dominique de Villepin: when called by his surname only, he is "Villepin;" when his full name is used, "de" is included; when an honorific is used, "de" is included, as in "Prime Minister de Villepin."
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2007 : 10:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Schattenjäger
I'm pleased to hear so - it never made much sense for French and German words to be included. I'll refrain from using them, then. Thank you.
Me too. I echo what Jorkens said. Please note that Ravens Bluff has so many NPCs with "real world names" because many of them were originally PCs in various RPGA campaigns (and apparently many DMs and players do not care about names having a pure "Realms" feel to them.) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2007 : 23:43:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Schattenjäger
I'm pleased to hear so - it never made much sense for French and German words to be included. I'll refrain from using them, then. Thank you.
Me too. I echo what Jorkens said. Please note that Ravens Bluff has so many NPCs with "real world names" because many of them were originally PCs in various RPGA campaigns (and apparently many DMs and players do not care about names having a pure "Realms" feel to them.)
Yes, I knew about that. I still think it's reason for caution though, when using such a supplement. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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FR_Junkie
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2007 : 04:31:45
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I see everyone in agreement that real world names should be excluded from Forgotten Realms campaign for the sake of maintaining a realmsish feel...,. however, I see no one pointing to any comprehensive FR naming convention to assist those of us that feel more comfortable comparing a FR culture with a real world culture for the sake of identifying better with the fantasy folk.
sure, Bob the Barbarian may just scream 'wrong' to anyone that's ever gamed in a fantasy RPG, but what's wrong with naming an illuskan character Halga Mikkelsen, Gunnar Bjornstad, or just plain old Dolgfinnr the Grey? A handful of names in the FRCS, not to mention names in various novels, seems to show that there are real world names all over Faerun... just like there are other things from the real world that happen to invade FR's fantasy world: like animals, plants, and often the names for them. oak trees? This must be blasphemy, for they actually exist in the real world!
its a game setting, not the French language... keeping it "pure" for the sake of feeling distinctly its own place doesn't actually help the setting. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2007 : 07:16:37
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There is nothing wrong with this if you are not pulled straight back into the real world by the names. Those names you mention sounds like parodies of scandinavian names in some cases or like someone you will talk to on the corner in others. Bob Smith and Thomas Waives-allot would do the same for an English speaker.
As using "real" names will have a varying effect on readers in different cultures or of various tastes. Fantasy names keeps alot of these problems away. In addition, these names are not a part of the Realms naming tradition, they are more a result of the sheared world principle, which makes it easy for inconsistencies to sneak they're way in.
There is nothing wrong in using Real world names in ones game to help imagine a character, but in official products this should be avoided. In my opinion of course. |
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FR_Junkie
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 01:15:59
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double standards suck. personally, I wouldn't be bothered by the attitude against real world naming if there was a big Book of Faerunian Names sourcebook that listed a couple hundred thousand names amongst various races and cultures in the realms, plus a couple chapters on how to create "authentic" FR names. however, until the names are made up by an author, one can't consider them authentic.
and honestly, if the name Bob shatters your feel for the fantasy setting and shocks you back to reality, you just don't have enough imagination to maintain suspension of disbelief to get past it....and I wonder how you can accept anything in the Realms that wasn't specifically created for the fictional setting. No cat familiars, because cats are real. Weather?? Okay, as long as its not rain, snow, sleet, fog, sunshine, or blue skies with clouds because we have those in the real world. Iron? Steel? Get rid of them, they're real metals using real names. Assign everything fictional names like mithral and adamantine and such.
names... come on. does everyone in the setting have to be an Elminster, Drizzt, Khelbin, or other officially sanctioned name? until the grass isn't green and all the animals are completely fictionalized, I don't see how a mix of both real and created names hurts the setting. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 04:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by FR_Junkie
double standards suck.
Well, inconsistent naming schemes suck. ;)
quote:
Originally posted by FR_Junkie
personally, I wouldn't be bothered by the attitude against real world naming if there was a big Book of Faerunian Names sourcebook that listed a couple hundred thousand names amongst various races and cultures in the realms, plus a couple chapters on how to create "authentic" FR names. however, until the names are made up by an author, one can't consider them authentic.
That doesn't mean you can't try. There are numerous examples through out 20 years of sourcebooks and novels. Even if you just take a regular name and shift some letters around, change a few vowels, go for rare names, it breaks the real world connection a bit. No one is asking players maintain a constant telepathic connection to Realms designers in order to obtain Realmsian names.
Really if you demand unrealistically detailed books on Realms naming schemes, I could demand an equally extensive set of tomes detailing why real names like John, Harry, and George holds any relevant meaning, connotation, or tradition in a fantasy world where the cultures are different from the real world.
quote:
Originally posted by FR_Junkie
and honestly, if the name Bob shatters your feel for the fantasy setting and shocks you back to reality, you just don't have enough imagination to maintain suspension of disbelief to get past it....
That's a bit harsh, I doubt you've played with most gamers who prefer non-real world names for Realms characters to accurately gage their average imaginative ability.
It's not a simple matter of suspension of disbelief, it's setting consistency. Most of the places in the Realms don't have real world names, that was laid down by the setting creator and followed by most of the designers and authors. There are a few places that have very blantant and frequent use of real world names. Tell me which is out of place? How come those places have such an abundance of real world names? Questions start to pop up, the place starts to feel plugged in. The effect reaches further than just one character if an entire city is full of people with names from the real world.
You can suspend your disbelief, but there is a threshold before things become so unfantastic it drags you out of the setting. Commonly that is accomplished by inconsistent naming. This is like completely plow through inconsistencies but doing a bad job, yet calling it a good day's work. To a limited extent, players who don't try to fit their character names into the existing setting scheme can be considered a bit uncaring or lazy at best, barring personal preferences.
quote:
Originally posted by FR_Junkie
and I wonder how you can accept anything in the Realms that wasn't specifically created for the fictional setting. No cat familiars, because cats are real. Weather?? Okay, as long as its not rain, snow, sleet, fog, sunshine, or blue skies with clouds because we have those in the real world. Iron? Steel? Get rid of them, they're real metals using real names. Assign everything fictional names like mithral and adamantine and such.
That's simply unrealistic. As a game made (primarily) for an American audience, some terms will have to be in English. Otherwise you would need volumes of dictionaries and encyclopedias to explain even the most minuscule detail. If there is nothing tying the setting to our human experience, then the setting becomes very difficult to relate to. Thus the notorious difficulty in creating a good setting where humans don't exist.
Proper names are a different matter, that is where the differences in culture and language do maintain exclusivity. This happens in the real world too, we commonly call the capital of China Beijing rather than translate it to "Northern Capital" or whatever it actually translate to. This preserves a bit of the flavor of the places or person you're referring to. Proper names come with a lot of context and meaning.
If a cat-like creature exist on two worlds that are identical, then for the sake of the audience on our world, we call it a cat. The creature probably does have a name in a number of language (both in the real world and in the fantasy world), but that's not really necessary to a game world. The same can't be said of two people or two cultures. The game is about playing characters after all, not entire species of felines.
quote:
Originally posted by FR_Junkie
names... come on. does everyone in the setting have to be an Elminster, Drizzt, Khelbin, or other officially sanctioned name? until the grass isn't green and all the animals are completely fictionalized, I don't see how a mix of both real and created names hurts the setting.
Already covered above, but to elaborate. Real world names in the Realms is like someone naming their kid Darth Stalin Big'MacKiller in the real world. Those names have strong previous connotations and its simply weird, it just screams different. It's not wrong, I'm pretty sure there's no law against it, but that kid is going to get picked on at school. Just like real world names in fantasy settings without a strong established history of them get picked on by fans on forums about fictional settings. I'm sure one or two John Smiths or Betty Jones spread out here and there wouldn't hurt any setting, but when you have dozens of NPCs in a local area named with common real world name it starts to feel like some sort of unnecessary artificial barrier has been created between that area and the rest of the setting. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 04:35:11
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| Well said Archwizard, and pretty much exactly what I was thinking myself. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 07:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by FR_Junkie
double standards suck. personally, I wouldn't be bothered by the attitude against real world naming if there was a big Book of Faerunian Names sourcebook that listed a couple hundred thousand names amongst various races and cultures in the realms, plus a couple chapters on how to create "authentic" FR names. however, until the names are made up by an author, one can't consider them authentic.
and honestly, if the name Bob shatters your feel for the fantasy setting and shocks you back to reality, you just don't have enough imagination to maintain suspension of disbelief to get past it....and I wonder how you can accept anything in the Realms that wasn't specifically created for the fictional setting. No cat familiars, because cats are real. Weather?? Okay, as long as its not rain, snow, sleet, fog, sunshine, or blue skies with clouds because we have those in the real world. Iron? Steel? Get rid of them, they're real metals using real names. Assign everything fictional names like mithral and adamantine and such.
names... come on. does everyone in the setting have to be an Elminster, Drizzt, Khelbin, or other officially sanctioned name? until the grass isn't green and all the animals are completely fictionalized, I don't see how a mix of both real and created names hurts the setting.
First of all I never said that names should be of an officially sanctioned sort, I said that "officially sanctioned" names should be coherent. What people do in their own games is their own business and no one else's. As for the name Bob (or Jean, Kurt, Mehmet etc); if it was a world that took names from earth (such as GURPS Yrth) it would not bother me at all. In such a world Elminster would bother me. As would weather patterns in a world where it had been stated that weather was the result of Dragons fighting in the heavens. As nothing of the sorts has been said of the Realms I have no problem with it.
This is a question of keeping the world coherent in some way, at least the published version, not of how you want your fantasy names in general. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 21:59:06
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Might I remember everyone that there IS a proper "FR naming convention" in print?
Page 12 of the FRCS. Voila.
I have a rule in my campaigns: no real-world names. One player showed up at a game with "Bauhb" once, saying "it's not spelled like the real Bob," to which I answered "Pick another name now. We're not starting this night's session until you do," at which all other players started to immediately stare at him. 
For the purists, there's even two more FR naming conventions that I know of:
For dwarves: 1st edition "Dwarves Deep," by Ed Greenwood.
For drow: 2nd edition "Drow of the Underdark," by Ed Greenwood.
Spare me your whining and dig a little.  |
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2007 : 19:21:59
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Names are frequently words with a meaning in a different language.
My RL life means listening willow son. Which would be a strange name to have.
Mac or Mc means son of, Von is from or from the.
Alcides Von Tighe, Would be Alcides from Tighe
Martin MacGreggor, Would be Martin son of Greggor.
What would be useful is some ideas for realms versions of Mc and Von.
A couple of ideas that spring to mind
For dwarves Names ending in yn might mean son of
And names staring will Ul, mean from or of
For Orcs, adding Fek to the name means son of
Ho means daughter of
And Ok means of or from. |
“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
Edited by - Odysseus on 30 Jun 2007 16:09:22 |
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Character names using "de", "von" or "mac"?
