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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 13:36:28
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I've been giving this question a lot of thought lately, and I've come to a few conclusions. Some of these conclusions are easy to see, and others considerably less so. Please feel free to add you own reasons whether you agree with mine or not.
Edit: For myself, I like the two races equally, and percieve that they are both viable. I would love a Dwarves of Faerun supplement and Dwarf protagonist FR novels.
1)Tolkien- There is little doubt that Tolkien inspired most of what we term fantasy today. There is an even smaller degree of doubt that he was mostly inspired by existing mythologies. In Tolkien dwarves are depicted as greedy cave dwellers with over-inflated egos that are invariably dirty and favor elements of style that are seldom honored in Western Civilization (like exceptionally long beards). Their penchant for the brutal use of axes rather than more elegant swords and bows increases their profile as civilized barbarians. Moreover, what magic they have appears to have its origin with the elves (the doors of Moria). By contrast, Tolkien's elves are almost wholly good and enlightened and universally depicted as protagonists with largely altruistic goals. Who wouldn't choose to be the good guy? Note that the elven pantheon doesn't have any evil deities, while the dwarven pantheon has several.
2)Economy- Dwarves search for precious metals and gems deep in the earth, and tend to favor hard labor as a means to achieve wealth. Thus they are rough, appearing to be blue collar, and constantly covered with the grime of the mines. Their major settlements are situated over mines (The Mines of Moria, The Mines of Tethymar, etc...) As much as we might hate to admit, being blue collar and working class is less appealing than living a life of luxury and pursuing more liberal arts, as the elves seem to. Where exactly do elves find their gold and gems? What was the last elven mine that you heard of. Mostly they write poetry, study magic, and live in tree homes that grew for them rather than homes that they had to build. Who wouldn't choose a life of ease over a life of toil?
3)Beauty- I apologize to all circus performers, but who sees the beauty in a bearded woman? When did you last hear of a fat elf? On the other hand, Dwarves seem to revere bearded women and are universally regarded as either stocky, stout, or plain old fat. If by a simple intellectual choice you could choose to be either fat or thin, which would you choose? How many of us in a Star Wars game choose to play a Hutt?
4)Entertainment- Dwarves have two forms of entertainment: Work, and drinking to excess routinely. Very few people in Western Society, even in Europe, view routine EXCESSIVE drinking as anything but a vice. Whats more is that most of these obsessively alcoholic dwarves are also extremely violent. Where most of us see this activity as a vice, they appear to pronounce it a virtue. In this way, even the most altruistic dwarf seems to have (at the least) a mildly warped view of morality.
5)Player Portrayal- In my decade and a half of DMing, with no exception whatsoever, any player that picks a dwarf chooses all of these negative aspects and exaggerates them to unbelievable degrees. Instead of just being dirty with toil, they refuse to bathe at all unless it rains on them. They drink to excess EVERY time the opportunity presents itself and often go to extreme measures to make certain that they can do this ANY time they want. At least 70% of my dwarf players want to be Battle Ragers which are the personification of all negative dwarven stereotypes.
6)Author Portrayal- Authors seem to portray dwarves almost exactly the same as my players do. Which came first: the chicken or the egg? Even when an author seeks to break the mold (Salvatore's Pikel) they tend to have several other negative aspects. In Pikel's case he seems mentally incompetent (except when it comes to sly trickery) and virtually incapable of coherent speech.
7)Salvatore's Portrayal- How about a name like Cordio Muffinhead? Or a General whose name bears striking resemblance to a euphamistic expletive (Dagnabbit!). A King that must herd his subjects like a pirate captain to set them to action (Yar! Get ye tah work!) Setting up Thibbledorf Pwent as a role-model. I could go on.
8)Emotion- The two emotions that most frequently characterize dwarves are Hatred and Greed. Greed has allready been addressed, so lets go on to Hatred. Particularly in Salvatore's dwarves, the deep and abiding hatred of Goblins and Giants is a universal characteristic, so much so that entire branches of technology have been innovated in order to destroy them. Now I'll give you... they ARE goblins and orcs. Even then unilateral genocide is seldom appealing to either readers or players, especially when your quest for genocide has decimated your own population and led to the loss of several major kingdoms. Aside from the Great Rift is there any example of a place where Dwarf/Orc race war has yielded positive results for the dwarves? Yet, this continues to be one of the hallmarks of their civilization. Do elves hate orcs too? Yes. Do they hate them SO much that they get a racial BONUS to kill them? No. To the elves, orcs are rats and pests to be exterminated because they annoy you. To the dwarves the goblins represent a ever present threat that has bested them in several places of strength.
Thoughts?
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*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 16 Mar 2007 16:02:37
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:02:25
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1. While it is true that Tolkien did devote more time to the elves, after all the current incarnation of the elf is of his creation, it is not to say that dwarves were viewed as barbarian but rather, reclusive. This would stem, I think from the fact that their wares were highly prized and also that their interaction with the other races had shown them, that buy and large other races were not to be trusted. Remember, when the dwarves needed a burgler they went outside their own. And while Gandalf may have been the motivating factor for the choice of a hobbit, there can be little doubt that stealth and trickery were foreign abilities to them. For example, Thorin refused to answer the Elf King when he was asked what his business was instead of lying to him.
It is true that in this day and age of get rich quick, i.e. the lottery, that people have largely abandoned the concept of simply working hard and understanding your place in the world. In my experience however, this can be related to the current generation and also seems to be more prevelant in the U.S. I don't know that the person who spends more time focusing on his altruistic goals, is of more value, and thus the good guy vice bad guy, than the person who is out there every day actually making things happen. As the saying goes, "Those who can, do, those who can't, don't, and those who can do neither, teach".
2. While much of this relates to my response to #1, I do want to say that IMO, something earned is much more satisfying than something you were simply given.
3. While I do admit that a woman with more facial hair than myself would not be what I consider physically attractive, I do have to say that this current incarnation of feminine beauty, with women dipped in nair from their neck down, and having to starve themselves to feel beautiful holds little appeal for me either. Women, IMO should have curves, and if they have body hair, so be it. Mind you, there is a difference between, curves and rolls however and too far on either side of the scale isn't appealing. However, many of the mini's and artwork in the current edition of D&D are right on for what a woman should look like IMO.
4. Given that the dwarven mythos comes largely from germanic and scandinavian myth, both of which hold those two virtues highly, would you expect anything else? To say that what they choose for their entertainment is warped because it does not meet your, or even the current prevailing, view of morality is the height of arrogance, IMO and fits in perfectly with how I see elves; "If it isn't what we do or think than it must be wrong, actually if it isn't elven if must be wrong".
5. While I am currently playing a dwarf in your game that meets that description, (and Angorn was the first one into the hot tub remember) I'm also concurrently playing a dwarven ranger that is not gruff nor dirty. I've also played dwarven wizards that were scholarly and even a dwarven prince once who was a bard, and was very concerned with his appearance. Races of Stone also attempts to dispel some of this false image of dwarves being dirty and uncouth. I will give you however, that they are often portrayed that way in current fiction. Although, one would notice that dwarves in general go to extreme measures to take care of their beards, which shows that they are aware of the value of grooming.
6. See #5.
7. See #5.
8. Oh ho, well it true that their hatred of the gobinkin and orc and giant races is well known, it is more of the reason that it's a war for survival than anything else IMO. Just like tribes fighting for the same piece of land. The winner may very well not let the looser survive to find another place to live. This is certainly the thought of the gobins/orcs/giants when facing the "civilized" races. Besides the dwarves don't have any place to run away to. The movie 300 is very dwarven in it's outlook IMO.
I don't mean to revisit the dwarves vs. elves thing or to say one is better than the other, just responding to the post is all. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Edited by - dwarvenranger on 16 Mar 2007 15:03:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:19:36
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Do dwarves really have a monopoly on hatred? Elves are well known for being haters of drow, orcs, and on occasion, even humans (the race of their players/writers/creators). If dwarves are truly characterized by "hatred", and players shun them for that reason, then how come that hasn't happened with elves? I'm not convinced that a mechanical bonus makes a huge difference here, either.
In regards to drinking--everytime I read about drinking dwarves, it's almost always in a social context (like at a feast). I agree that excessive drinking is seen as a vice, but in my experience my culture (I live in the U.S.) is very much a drinking culture, and drinking (a lot) at parties is seen as socially acceptable. I haven't heard that most European countries are much different. So in that sense, there isn't a huge difference in how acceptable alcohol is between dwarven cultures and the real world cultures of many players.
EDIT: I would also like to note that characters with a penchant for heavy drinking are numerous in this genre (and a lot of other genres!) and aren't only limited to dwarves. I've seen this trait and plenty of other races that aren't necessarily "shunned" by players. I have other issues with the original post, as well, but I'll leave what I wrote for now, except to say that if people in your campaign *are* playing dwarves, even if they play up and perhaps enjoy their more negative characteristics, then perhaps they aren't quite so unpopular with players after all? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Mar 2007 15:41:02 |
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:26:32
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well said, dwarvenranger.
agreed on all counts!
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yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:31:10
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| By the way, this is just my opinion but I don't really see how Pikel Bouldershoulder breaks the mold regarding how dwarves are portrayed...he isn't much different from Salvatore's other dwarves. I think better examples of "mold-breakers" come from Elaine Cunningham's work, such as Morgalla and Ebenezer. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:46:46
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Let me first say that I have not divulged my personal feelings about dwarves here. I am simply identifying a trend that I have percieved, and am seeking to explain it. From my perspective, it appears to be an issue of marketing.
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
1. While it is true that Tolkien did devote more time to the elves, after all the current incarnation of the elf is of his creation, it is not to say that dwarves were viewed as barbarian but rather, reclusive. This would stem, I think from the fact that their wares were highly prized and also that their interaction with the other races had shown them, that buy and large other races were not to be trusted. Remember, when the dwarves needed a burgler they went outside their own. And while Gandalf may have been the motivating factor for the choice of a hobbit, there can be little doubt that stealth and trickery were foreign abilities to them. For example, Thorin refused to answer the Elf King when he was asked what his business was instead of lying to him.
It is true that in this day and age of get rich quick, i.e. the lottery, that people have largely abandoned the concept of simply working hard and understanding your place in the world. In my experience however, this can be related to the current generation and also seems to be more prevelant in the U.S. I don't know that the person who spends more time focusing on his altruistic goals, is of more value, and thus the good guy vice bad guy, than the person who is out there every day actually making things happen. As the saying goes, "Those who can, do, those who can't, don't, and those who can do neither, teach".
2. While much of this relates to my response to #1, I do want to say that IMO, something earned is much more satisfying than something you were simply given.
I certainly understand the value of labor, and honestly even prefer it. That's why, until lately, I've been working in a warehouse. On the other hand, you do admit that the current generation generally eschews labor in favor of luxury (what american economists refer to as Dutch Disease). In this way, since D&D is marketed mostly to the young, I believe that Dwarves have been mismarketed. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that the values of the dwarves are contrary to those of the audience to which they are being marketed.
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
3. While I do admit that a woman with more facial hair than myself would not be what I consider physically attractive, I do have to say that this current incarnation of feminine beauty, with women dipped in nair from their neck down, and having to starve themselves to feel beautiful holds little appeal for me either. Women, IMO should have curves, and if they have body hair, so be it. Mind you, there is a difference between, curves and rolls however and too far on either side of the scale isn't appealing. However, many of the mini's and artwork in the current edition of D&D are right on for what a woman should look like IMO.
I agree. But again you admit that the prevailing concept in society is contrary to that held by the dwarves. In fact I would tend to espouse the view that few in the targeted audience would be inclined to see a dwarf as beautiful, but that the reverse would be true of elves. Thus, perhaps, many players/readers are simply making the choice between the '06 Mustang and a '06 Crown Victoria. Both made by the same company. Similar levels of performance depending on the options you chose, but one tends to be more desirable than the other.
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
4. Given that the dwarven mythos comes largely from germanic and scandinavian myth, both of which hold those two virtues highly, would you expect anything else? To say that what they choose for their entertainment is warped because it does not meet your, or even the current prevailing, view of morality is the height of arrogance, IMO and fits in perfectly with how I see elves; "If it isn't what we do or think than it must be wrong, actually if it isn't elven if must be wrong".
Everything you said is totally true on an intellectual level. Now, knowing that for truth, count how many elven protagonists you have in FR novels and compare that with dwarven protagonists in FR novels. It would appear that consumers (and thus producers) are less interested in intellectual honesty and more concerned with what is morally re-affirming on the most shallow levels.
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
5. While I am currently playing a dwarf in your game that meets that description, (and Angorn was the first one into the hot tub remember) I'm also concurrently playing a dwarven ranger that is not gruff nor dirty. I've also played dwarven wizards that were scholarly and even a dwarven prince once who was a bard, and was very concerned with his appearance. Races of Stone also attempts to dispel some of this false image of dwarves being dirty and uncouth. I will give you however, that they are often portrayed that way in current fiction. Although, one would notice that dwarves in general go to extreme measures to take care of their beards, which shows that they are aware of the value of grooming.
6. See #5.
7. See #5.
I won't deny that you have played (and enjoyed playing) dwarves that go against stereotype. Simultaneously, I have never had that experience in any game that I have run, or played in. Concurrently, such dwarven pc's only really became possible in 3E. In 2E they had to be Fighter, Thief, or Cleric, and could only advance to a reasonable level in Fighter. Further back, when dwarf was its own class, he was basically the bearded guy with the axe. While Races of Stone may have sought to correct this stereotype, one need only look the the Unearthed Arcana under Dwarf Paragon to see how designers view the dwarf. Or 90% of statted dwarf NPC's for that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
8. Oh ho, well it true that their hatred of the gobinkin and orc and giant races is well known, it is more of the reason that it's a war for survival than anything else IMO. Just like tribes fighting for the same piece of land. The winner may very well not let the looser survive to find another place to live. This is certainly the thought of the gobins/orcs/giants when facing the "civilized" races. Besides the dwarves don't have any place to run away to. The movie 300 is very dwarven in it's outlook IMO.
I don't mean to revisit the dwarves vs. elves thing or to say one is better than the other, just responding to the post is all.
300 is a solid Dwarven movie, but what necessarilly stops Dwarves from settling more hospitable lands. While most civilized races bear goblinoids nothing but ill will and swift death, the dwarves are some what fanatical about it. No other race gets a racial bonus to killing goblinoids. This is really just a reaffirmation of the dwarven focus on violence. Even a dwarven commoner wants to kill a goblin, and is better at it than any other kind of commoner. Violence is part and parcel of their design.
I also, am only responding. Please don't read any hostility here. Just to clarify, I am not condemning your play style if you play dwarves in the ways described above. I'm just trying to rationalize to myself why elves seem to be more popular in FR than Dwarves. The thing that really got me to thinking about it was a chorus of Eberron fans that declaimed FR on the basis that it is Elf-o-philic, and I think that the vast amount of material published on elves in our setting bears out their estimation. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:52:23
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Well there is a very pratical matter of playing a character, speed is slower, risk of drowning higher both because of height. The size of a drawf does make it harder to play for other reasons, such as weapon size - a human can use an elven sword with no problem a drawf is limited in ability to use either.
Elves play alot and of course appear far more liberal in moral values, I actually have never seen anything that make this view canon but if seen that way clearly an elf would be more fun to play. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:56:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Do dwarves really have a monopoly on hatred? Elves are well known for being haters of drow, orcs, and on occasion, even humans (the race of their players/writers/creators). If dwarves are truly characterized by "hatred", and players shun them for that reason, then how come that hasn't happened with elves? I'm not convinced that a mechanical bonus makes a huge difference here, either.
In regards to drinking--everytime I read about drinking dwarves, it's almost always in a social context (like at a feast). I agree that excessive drinking is seen as a vice, but in my experience my culture (I live in the U.S.) is very much a drinking culture, and drinking (a lot) at parties is seen as socially acceptable. I haven't heard that most European countries are much different. So in that sense, there isn't a huge difference in how acceptable alcohol is between dwarven cultures and the real world cultures of many players.
Elves also have a hatred issue among their own kind though on a sub-race level!!!
And I mostly agree with dwarvenranger (well said)
I do have to pick up on one point of WalkerNinja's which stands out a mile!!
quote:
4)Entertainment- Dwarves have two forms of entertainment: Work, and drinking to excess routinely. Very few people in Western Society, even in Europe, view routine EXCESSIVE drinking as anything but a vice. Whats more is that most of these obsessively alcoholic dwarves are also extremely violent. Where most of us see this activity as a vice, they appear to pronounce it a virtue. In this way, even the most altruistic dwarf seems to have (at the least) a mildly warped view of morality.
If you have watched international news or read international newspapers you would see that European society does exactly that, Drinks to excess on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, The popular youth culture revolves around Drink and Drugs at the present time. (I've just had to sit through my step son's college paper on said subject!)
So your comment on very few people etc is wrong!
You will see that through out history Hard working peoples Play hard as well! For a dwarven character to use this as a race social type is utterly correct and gives (most importantly) hugh scope for interesting and entertaining ROLE PLAY!!!
BUT
Elves are not the sensitive mardi southern shandy drinkers you seem to imply! Elven wine is reported as some of the strongest wines in the realms, and the elven abillity to party to excess is also legendary!
So is it a question of Morality or just different views on Hedonism?
quote:
6)Author Portrayal- Authors seem to portray dwarves almost exactly the same as my players do. Which came first: the chicken or the egg? Even when an author seeks to break the mold (Salvatore's Pikel) they tend to have several other negative aspects. In Pikel's case he seems mentally incompetent (except when it comes to sly trickery) and virtually incapable of coherent speech.
7)Salvatore's Portrayal- How about a name like Cordio Muffinhead? Or a General whose name bears striking resemblance to a euphamistic expletive (Dagnabbit!). A King that must herd his subjects like a pirate captain to set them to action (Yar! Get ye tah work!) Setting up Thibbledorf Pwent as a role-model. I could go on.
What is a novel without colourful stereo-types?
R.A.Salvatore & Tolkien are not the first authors to use this stereo-type, have you every seen Disney's Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs??
And don't even get me started on she-dwarves....
Theres an expression that springs to mind when insulting posh folk,
Chinless Wonders in my campaigns all Non Dwarves are called Beardless Wonders when being insulted by Delzounblood or any other dwarf I'm playing!
An' what's wrong with Battleragers?
every culture has some form of berserker, Dwarves have me! I mean Battleragers.
nough said i'm gonna get me a Pint of Diesel or 10, get bladdered and start a fight with a complete stranger, after all it's Friday Fight Night! 
Delz
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I'm Back! |
Edited by - Delzounblood on 16 Mar 2007 15:57:07 |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:56:31
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Hello-
Heh - I came in here to add something to what Rino just said - and a whole extra post was here! :)
That little extra - IIRC there was a Dwarf that was somewhat different - and one I liked - as a main/supporting character in Darkvision by Cordell.
As to what Walker just posted - and I am in a hurry to leave for work...
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300 is a solid Dwarven movie, but what necessarilly stops Dwarves from settling more hospitable lands. While most civilized races bear goblinoids nothing but ill will and swift death, the dwarves are some what fanatical about it. No other race gets a racial bonus to killing goblinoids. This is really just a reaffirmation of the dwarven focus on violence. Even a dwarven commoner wants to kill a goblin, and is better at it than any other kind of commoner. Violence is part and parcel of their design.
Quote--------------
Dont Gnomes get a bonus against Kobolds? Does this make Gnomes especially violent? I always thought that the bonus was mainly due to the race pairings having longtime fighting over territory, which then gave them the bonus, not that Dwarves were especially violent. Same for the Dwarven bonus against Giants. If you fight a single type of foe for long enough - you can develop some wide-spread tactic that help against that foe. **Hmmm digression - I am thinking prestege class for Giants that eliminated the Dwarven bonus - and possibly even adds a bonus for the giants....**
Anyway - I have to run now!
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 15:59:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
In regards to drinking--everytime I read about drinking dwarves, it's almost always in a social context (like at a feast). I agree that excessive drinking is seen as a vice, but in my experience my culture (I live in the U.S.) is very much a drinking culture, and drinking (a lot) at parties is seen as socially acceptable. I haven't heard that most European countries are much different. So in that sense, there isn't a huge difference in how acceptable alcohol is between dwarven cultures and the real world cultures of many players.
EDIT: I would also like to note that characters with a penchant for heavy drinking are numerous in this genre (and a lot of other genres!) and aren't only limited to dwarves. I've seen this trait and plenty of other races that aren't necessarily "shunned" by players. I have other issues with the original post, as well, but I'll leave what I wrote for now, except to say that if people in your campaign *are* playing dwarves, even if they play up and perhaps enjoy their more negative characteristics, then perhaps they aren't quite so unpopular with players after all?
I'll whole heartedly agree with you, but simultaneously I would tend to say that America's relation to alcohol is paradoxical and problematic. Its something that most participate in, but there is large enough opposition to it to pass a constitutional amendment against it, an amendment that was then repealed because it was unenforceable.
At the same time I suggest that dwarves have a special relationship with alcohol in fantasy settings that supercedes the alcoholic tendencies of other races. Dwarven ale is judged superior (stronger) to virtually all others; Dwarf Spirits are portrayed as being on par with Jet Fuel. In spite of this they drink both as often as possible. I can't count the number of dwarf PC's I've seen and heard of that either possessed or bugged their DM for an everflowing mug of Ale.
Again, I'm only going off of games that I've been a part of and the novels that I've read. I'll confess that I've only read Elaine's elf novels, but that's mainly a matter of money and time. I was young and wealthy when Elfshadow hit the racks, now I'm old and poor. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 16 Mar 2007 16:01:16 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:00:15
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Oh, there's no doubt that part of this dichotomy is based on marketing. Also, a few people here have said that dwarves are more like what we are and the people we meet, but elves are more like what we *want* to be. I think a lot of it has to do with wish-fulfillment.
Still, one can't honestly point to the failings of dwarves like violence, drinking, and so forth and ignore the fact that other races, including elves, have similar failings. Elves have waged plenty of war, not only against other races but also against each other. And it's rare to come across a fantasy setting or culture wherein social drinking is looked down upon or seen as deviant.
Also, I think it's a good thing that we know how dwarves get the materials they work with and make their money. With elves, it's almost as if the necessities of life are glossed over, or ignored entirely, as if all elves are rich, can relax all the time, and produce excrement that doesn't smell (if indeed they produce waste at all...how often do we hear about elven sewers?). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:05:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
Elves also have a hatred issue among their own kind though on a sub-race level!!!
Very true! Elves have made war on each other (as I mentioned in my last post ), and there seems to be more inter-racial bigotry amongst elves than amongst dwarves...or at least, we don't hear about dwarf vs. dwarf bigotry nearly as often. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
elves are rich, can relax all the time, and produce excrement that doesn't smell.
Oh how true!!!
I'd like to see an elf down a dwarven mine on a 12hr shift with out breaking a nail!
Delz |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-
Heh - I came in here to add something to what Rino just said - and a whole extra post was here! :)
That little extra - IIRC there was a Dwarf that was somewhat different - and one I liked - as a main/supporting character in Darkvision by Cordell.
Ah..haven't read that one yet, will look out for the dwarf character when I do. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:09:31
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Don't get me wrong I am not anti elf, it's just I think they are a bit to mardi and soft (read sensitve and delicate)
Delz |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:09:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
elves are rich, can relax all the time, and produce excrement that doesn't smell.
Oh how true!!!
I'd like to see an elf down a dwarven mine on a 12hr shift with out breaking a nail!
Delz
Honestly...who wouldn't like to know more about the elven farmers who produce their food? The elven miners who get all their precious gems (or do they have dwarves do that for them?). In general, I like it when we know how a society keeps itself running, and we do tend to see more of that with dwarves than with elves. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:10:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Oh, there's no doubt that part of this dichotomy is based on marketing. Also, a few people here have said that dwarves are more like what we are and the people we meet, but elves are more like what we *want* to be. I think a lot of it has to do with wish-fulfillment.
This is almost precisely the point that I was trying to make. Well, lots of folks have torn up my ideas. Perhaps you all have an explanation for the reason elves seem more popular? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
elves are rich, can relax all the time, and produce excrement that doesn't smell.
Oh how true!!!
I'd like to see an elf down a dwarven mine on a 12hr shift with out breaking a nail!
Delz
Honestly...who wouldn't like to know more about the elven farmers who produce their food? The elven miners who get all their precious gems (or do they have dwarves do that for them?). In general, I like it when we know how a society keeps itself running, and we do tend to see more of that with dwarves than with elves.
Yeah even the old 2e Comp Book of Elves seemed to skim the basics of life.
Delz
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Honestly...who wouldn't like to know more about the elven farmers who produce their food? The elven miners who get all their precious gems (or do they have dwarves do that for them?). In general, I like it when we know how a society keeps itself running, and we do tend to see more of that with dwarves than with elves.
I started running into this problem when I tried to rationalize the existence of Myth Drannor. How did they feed the entire city without completely depopulating the entire forest? Where did they quarry the stones for all of those nifty buildings? Aside from magic what do they produce that other people want to buy? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:14:08
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
This is almost precisely the point that I was trying to make. Well, lots of folks have torn up my ideas. Perhaps you all have an explanation for the reason elves seem more popular?
Can't say that I do, because I'm rather baffled by it all myself. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Oh, there's no doubt that part of this dichotomy is based on marketing. Also, a few people here have said that dwarves are more like what we are and the people we meet, but elves are more like what we *want* to be. I think a lot of it has to do with wish-fulfillment.
This is almost precisely the point that I was trying to make. Well, lots of folks have torn up my ideas. Perhaps you all have an explanation for the reason elves seem more popular?
In a word
Holywood
or at least the over stylized view that elves are a step above everyone else (in there own minds) I think there should be a large helping of realism dumped on elves to make them more realistic at least in game terms.
Elves are always shown to be Noble and Pure apart from the rare exceptions, They must cover up their character flaws very well!
Delz
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I started running into this problem when I tried to rationalize the existence of Myth Drannor. How did they feed the entire city without completely depopulating the entire forest? Where did they quarry the stones for all of those nifty buildings? Aside from magic what do they produce that other people want to buy?
Exactly! There never seems to be an answer to these questions other than "they create it all from magic". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 16:32:53
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Well Elves are partly magic, they do not need to eat as much as other races. Elven farms have been described as blending in with nature. Elves landscape, then appear to be a gather of food to outside eyes. It is not well understood that those berry bushes, or other food plant, exists they because of a planed planting because it blends in and looks like nature. Of course Elves have ranger hunters for meat as well.
As far as food by magic any Cleric of level 5 or higher of any race can produce food. Just reviewed SRD 3.5 and I see they nerfed Create Food and Water compared to prior edition where as level increased the number that could be feed increased, though there are other food producing spells. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 18:54:58
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Of course I know about the create food and create water spells. But most other cities (in fact, all the ones I can think of) get their food supply mainly from mundane means. If creating a food supply by magic was a common practice, I don't see why only elves would use it.
Also, I've never read that elves eat less than other humanoids. To me it just sounds like yet another "elven crap doesn't stink" idea, which is really what is at the root of my complaint here.
PS: By the way, I'm not "anti-elf" either, I just dislike a lot of the perfectionist ideas associated with them (as I said before in much more blunt terms). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Mar 2007 19:02:41 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 19:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
elves are rich, can relax all the time, and produce excrement that doesn't smell.
Oh how true!!!
I'd like to see an elf down a dwarven mine on a 12hr shift with out breaking a nail!
Delz
Honestly...who wouldn't like to know more about the elven farmers who produce their food? The elven miners who get all their precious gems (or do they have dwarves do that for them?). In general, I like it when we know how a society keeps itself running, and we do tend to see more of that with dwarves than with elves.
I agree, and I think that's why I've never once played an elf, or even a half-elf. For that matter, the basic assumption of this thread is that elves are more popular than dwarves... is that even true? and in what sense, fantasy in general or in D&D specifially? In my group, and I'm talking about 7+ years with probably 20 different players throughout those years, I would guess the ration of dwarf to elf characters is about 3 to 1. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
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Edited by - Xysma on 16 Mar 2007 20:00:59 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 19:52:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
By the way, this is just my opinion but I don't really see how Pikel Bouldershoulder breaks the mold regarding how dwarves are portrayed...he isn't much different from Salvatore's other dwarves. I think better examples of "mold-breakers" come from Elaine Cunningham's work, such as Morgalla and Ebenezer.
Yeah, if Pikel broke the mold, I pray that someone fixes it.  I love Ebenezer, he's probably one of my favorite chracters in the Realms, but I never thought of him as a "mold-breaker" he seems like a pretty typical dwarf to me, what was it that made you think of him as such? Is is just because he's such a great character and that in and of itself is rare for a dwarf? |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Edited by - Xysma on 16 Mar 2007 19:53:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 21:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
By the way, this is just my opinion but I don't really see how Pikel Bouldershoulder breaks the mold regarding how dwarves are portrayed...he isn't much different from Salvatore's other dwarves. I think better examples of "mold-breakers" come from Elaine Cunningham's work, such as Morgalla and Ebenezer.
Yeah, if Pikel broke the mold, I pray that someone fixes it. I love Ebenezer, he's probably one of my favorite chracters in the Realms, but I never thought of him as a "mold-breaker" he seems like a pretty typical dwarf to me, what was it that made you think of him as such? Is is just because he's such a great character and that in and of itself is rare for a dwarf?
You know, that's partly it--he was written as...well, normal, not with an overdone accent or anything. But also the fact that he was more interested in traveling and adventure than hanging out with his clan...not that that makes him unique, per se, but I found it refreshing. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Mar 2007 21:21:13 |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 23:44:00
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In the campaigns I played the ratio was 1 dwarf for 3 or 4 elves. In my experiences the most popular races are Humans & Elves. Then you have gnomes and dwarfs followed by halflings.
But that's what I saw in groups I played. Maybe in other groups the rating is much different :) |
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Walls
Acolyte
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30 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 23:45:56
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Just my two cents, and I haven't read all the posts, but most people seem to be arguing with the original presenter's idea, rather then actually answering his question.
WHY are dwarves so less popular? I, for one, love them to death. They are my favorite race in D&D by a mile and I've played several. Why do they not get the love devoted to them in novel form, in games and even on the internet? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 00:57:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Walls
Just my two cents, and I haven't read all the posts, but most people seem to be arguing with the original presenter's idea, rather then actually answering his question.
I would answer his question, if I knew the answer. But as I said, I don't. Don't ask me why there aren't any dwarf-centered FR novels, even though there are some for the Dragonlance setting. *shrug* |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 17 Mar 2007 00:58:40 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 04:54:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
You know, that's partly it--he was written as...well, normal, not with an overdone accent or anything. But also the fact that he was more interested in traveling and adventure than hanging out with his clan...not that that makes him unique, per se, but I found it refreshing.
Excellent point. It is refreshing to see a dwarf that is a character rather than a stereotype. I think Delg from the Shandril Saga is another good example of a dwarven character who is treated as a character rather than just another dwarf. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Why are Elves are more popular than Dwarves?
