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Arcos
Acolyte
3 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 04:55:03
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Because I see enough short fat men with beer-besotted beards around the gaming table. 
It's interesting to note that many dwarven fans are also the ultra-realism lovers who play wargames or Hackmaster, while elves seem to be popular among the LARP'ers. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 05:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Walls
Just my two cents, and I haven't read all the posts, but most people seem to be arguing with the original presenter's idea, rather then actually answering his question.
Personally, my intention is not to argue the idea, just curious if dwarves are actually unpopular in other gaming groups, since they have been one of the most popular races in my group over the years. I guess it makes the original question even more valid if dwarves are as popular among players and still see little focus in published material. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 05:05:50
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I actually don't think that dwarves are unpopular, but I think there is a difference between popular from the standpoint of "comfortable" and accepted, and popular from the standpoint of "complex character concept/development." I think the general idea is that even people that like dwarves "get" them, but a lot of people that like elves still find them mysterious and want to see authors and designers come up with ideas about them.
To tell you the truth, while I think there have been more elven lead characters in Realms novels, I'm not sure that there haven't been more dwarf supporting characters overall. I can remember a long run of novels where I wanted to read more about elves, but they were at best only apparent in cameos. Dwarves on the other hand showed up quite a bit in supporting roles.
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 05:52:42
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Hello-
I did not have much time at work to think about this - but it also occurs to me:
Elves are much closer in general appearance to humans than Dwarves are - and I thgink readers are thought to prefer to have a viewpoint that is at least similar to what they are themselves familiar with. I seem to recall seeing this somewhere. I would imagine that it might be more difficult for authors/designers to come up with a primary character that is further afield from their own experiences (Human) such as a Mind Flayer or a Medusa or a Beholder.
I personally would have to say that in my gaming experience Elves and 1/2 Elves are the most used races, followed by Halflings and Humans and Dwarves. Gnomes seem to be the least-used - Although there was my 'gnome phase' back in the early 80's before they became Tinkers with the advent of Dragonlance. (*Remember those days? When Gnomes were Pranksters and Gem-lovers? :) *)
Dhomal |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 11:30:44
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I am used to a heavy use of gnomes and dwarves in addition to humans. Elves are rarely even considered in my gaming experience. Then again, none of us have really been fans of Tolkien. Now, when it comes to the mostly novel-reading part of the fan-base I think the situation is a bit different. To me it seems that most of the elf-fans are to be found in this grouping.
The popularity of elves is, in my opinion I should say, mostly a romantic one, with the mystery and beauty the elves represent. The dwarves become to much like "normal people" In most fantasy literature they become a parody of human civilization, as much as the elven society is represented an ideal. Strangely enough both races are generally considered as dangerous and temptatious when one looks at folklore and mythology, The same goes for creatures much like them in different cultures. Elven like creatures tempt with an intoxicating illusion of freedom, while dwarven creatures tempt with greed in various forms.
As for which race looks most like humans I would say that the dwarves are more like people in general than the elves. Shorter, but less ethereal then the general description of elves although I would agree that these are nearer to the ideal our time.
This is turning into much more of an unfocused rambling than I had expected, for which i am sorry, but those are my opinions anyhow. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 12:38:05
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I think the main reason that Elves are more popular than Dwarves are two-fold.
1) Author Portrayal - Mainly Tolkein. Elves are usually portrayed as near flawless. They also have a tragic quality to them because the "big-bad humans" are taking there land.
2) Game Stats - I will grant you that Dwarves make great fighters and even clerics, but if you want to play anything else there is an elven subrace tailor made for it. Want a rogue, sweet, Moon Elves get +2 to DEX. Wizard? Sun Elf +2 to INT. Fighter or Ranger has the good old Wood Elf +2 STR AND +2 DEX. I'm sure I'm missing some other stat boosts, I'm sure it's only a matter of time until we have an elf with a +2 CHA or WIS.
Let's also remember that DEX impacts a character more than any other stat. You have Reflex Saves, AC Bonus, Initiative, Lots of Skills, Ranged Attacks, and Melee Attacks with the use of Weapon Finesse.
If Dwarves had a Subrace with +2 to DEX, I'm sure more people would play them. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 13:32:47
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I think Dhomal and Jorkens are on the right track. For a lot of people, elves seem to be more like highly idealized versions of humans. They have long lifespans, are pretty and playful, and yet are physically quite similar to humans. So it's an easier, more appealing role for a lot of people to adopt.
Me, I've gone for half-elves and dwarves more often than elves. I've never played a "kill everything in sight and then get plastered!" kind of dwarf, though... Nor have I ever seen one played. My heaviest-drinking character was my minotaur, who was never without beer -- but who never drank it excess, either. He might have been the most violent, too, but that was more because a 20 STR was awesome in 2E, and so he preferred the brute force approach to just about everything. |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 13:51:16
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My response was going to be that the reason people prefer Elves over Dwarves is because they are like us, only more aesthetically appealing. But it seems that I am too late.
Dwarves could appeal to other people who prefer the rugged, tough, set in their ways type for roleplaying purposes. But Elves just seem to be easier for folks to rp. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 17 Mar 2007 13:56:40 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 15:00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
You know, that's partly it--he was written as...well, normal, not with an overdone accent or anything. But also the fact that he was more interested in traveling and adventure than hanging out with his clan...not that that makes him unique, per se, but I found it refreshing.
Excellent point. It is refreshing to see a dwarf that is a character rather than a stereotype. I think Delg from the Shandril Saga is another good example of a dwarven character who is treated as a character rather than just another dwarf.
Yes, Delg was another good portrayal of a dwarf as a character rather than a caricature.
Anyway, good responses, all...I don't know the answer myself but I like hearing the different takes on the issue. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 16:03:12
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| Delg was my favorite dwarf character. Salvatores dwarves are excellent also, But Delg is the type of personalities I like to portray in my own characters. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 16:04:44
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quote:
Originally posted by boddynock
In the campaigns I played the ratio was 1 dwarf for 3 or 4 elves. In my experiences the most popular races are Humans & Elves. Then you have gnomes and dwarfs followed by halflings.
But that's what I saw in groups I played. Maybe in other groups the rating is much different :)
I have played with an entire party of Dwarves :) Depends on the type of campaign you are running. |
Edited by - scererar on 17 Mar 2007 16:05:37 |
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 16:19:22
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'I've never played a "kill everything in sight and then get plastered!" kind of dwarf, though... Nor have I ever seen one played. '
i've been guilty of something similar.
i did once play a dwarf character that was based on the idea of the slayers from warhammer- disgraced and out to fight the biggest and most horrible beasties around in order to redeem himself and die an honourable death.
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i do think that elves tend to be more popular due to the simple fact that most people tend to be a bit shallow and elves are seen as 'pretty' while the dwarves are seen as 'ugly.' |
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 17:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
Dwarves could appeal to other people who prefer the rugged, tough, set in their ways type for roleplaying purposes. But Elves just seem to be easier for folks to rp.
That is something that has always surprised me, one of the reason elves have not been played in my experience, is that they are to difficult. How do you get into the mind of a race that has almost indefinite amounts of time and sees ancient history as something that happened to parents and older siblings? To me that makes the elves the most difficult race in the D&D system to handle. Even the sylvan races have a live for to day and to hell with tomorrow attitude that lets one work around the problem. |
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Grandmaster Kane
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 20:53:43
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| Because nobody likes a fat old bearded chick except fat old bearded dude |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 22:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
Dwarves could appeal to other people who prefer the rugged, tough, set in their ways type for roleplaying purposes. But Elves just seem to be easier for folks to rp.
That is something that has always surprised me, one of the reason elves have not been played in my experience, is that they are to difficult. How do you get into the mind of a race that has almost indefinite amounts of time and sees ancient history as something that happened to parents and older siblings? To me that makes the elves the most difficult race in the D&D system to handle. Even the sylvan races have a live for to day and to hell with tomorrow attitude that lets one work around the problem.
This is very true, and I have often pondered this, too. I think the heart of the problem lies in their "dual nature".
Elven races are portrayed by Tolkien (and by many other authors since) as powerful, ancient, immortal, graceful, wise and heart-breakingly tragic figures. On the other hand, they seem frail, mortal and light-hearted - full of song and joy and mischief.
For example, the elves in the Halls of Thranduil (and even Legolas, or Gildor of Rivendell) seem to be very much of the latter type.
Then there is Glorfindel, whom Frodo seems as a radiant being of light, scattering the Black Riders before his might and majesty. Yet I seem to recall that Glorfindel is also described (in his mortal elven form) as a very carefree and joy-spirited in the 'Rivendell' (MERP) accessory.
While D&D rules stripped away a lot of "elven supremacy" (see MERP for reference ;) in its game mechanics, it may be very intimidating to roleplay these two natures in one character - especially if you feel "burdened" by the "grim, proud, majestic and wise" image conveyed typically in fantasy literature.
However, elves of the Realms seem as "human" in their emotions, passions and behaviour as, well, humans are. I suspect that Ed was very conscient about this subject as he wrote of the elven races. This is shown in the Elminster series, at least, and in many other novels and accessories by Ed.
On the other hand, Cormyr: a novel gives us glimpses of the "magical, wise, haughty, and majectic" elves in the form of Iliphar's people (just read the chapter about the battle against the Witch Lords :)
Still, I presume that Ed has tried to say: "Look, they ARE a powerful, wise, proud and ancient race whose beauty and majesty outshines the stars. But they are also emotionally just as passionate, petty and whimsical as your average human being. Don't be intimidated, just play them the way you want to, since no being - not even an elf - is perfect or flawless." (or something like that ;)
Did any of this make any sense?  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 22:21:26
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| For what its worth, I had forgotten this, but Elminster's Ecologies there is an elven farmer who writes the section on the "civilized lands." I also seem to remember a fair number of elven "commoners" in Elminster in Myth Drannor. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2007 : 03:40:31
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| at the end of the last mythal trilogy also. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2007 : 20:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For what its worth, I had forgotten this, but Elminster's Ecologies there is an elven farmer who writes the section on the "civilized lands." I also seem to remember a fair number of elven "commoners" in Elminster in Myth Drannor.
Actually, I DO give Ed Greenwood credit for not "airbrushing" elves in his work the way certain other authors seem to (I'm not naming any names!).
But the fact remains--at least in my experience--that this lack of airbrushing is the exception rather than the rule. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Mar 2007 20:28:56 |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 19:45:54
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yeah, elves to me are like the Drizzt-clones, then go back to their LoTR Legolas/arwen-alike. which has always annoyed me, so i've never played elves. Might also factor in to why I like Thri-kreen from Dark Sun, they act towards elves like the stereotypical elf acts towards everyone else.
Also i'd say dwarves are better as they have a more colorful background/lifestyle. |
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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte
Australia
36 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 01:47:20
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I've never encountered elf liking or dwarf disliking in any game i've ever played in or run. To my PC's Dwarves are the bomb it's not a dnd/fantasy/realms experience without dwarves, in contrast none of my PC's partiularly like elves and they tend to display that in the way they act to my elf NPC's.
I recall one short lived game in which all of the party bar one was a dwarf (the other was human) and the dwarf chars dragged the human around on their drinking sprees after they finished a days adventuring... suffice to say the human couldn't keep up with the pace of drinking and would soon fall/pass out. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 10:31:02
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I've been thinking about this topic for a day or two now, and have come to some opinions...
Elves first.
Elves as stated by many are a Part of the weave, they are a magical creature (think over grown pixie) they blend Art and Culture with Magic and have a Idillic ambient way of life. (to my mind a bit too unrealistic even for a fantasy game)
Dwarves
Dwarves are IMO the foundation of the earth made from rock and grit. They are the miners and crafters the engineers and stonemasons. They are real solid honest working class race, who work damn hard all day and play hard to relax!
Regarding racial hatred
Elves look upon the other races with general disdane, while dwarves are mistrusting and a "closed" race. Though dwarves have had eons of conflict with Orcs and there kin and obviously this has inbred a loathing and bitter hatred for these scrags! Elves while being torn with inter-racial conflict have throughout history counted nearly every race as a bitter foe, including Dwarves, Humans!
Different? VERY
One Better than the other? IMO no! I just prefer dwarves as a more real portrait than the elven idealistic picture.
either way this is a RPG so choose a race that will be interesting and fun to play, but remember RPG is a ROLE PLAYING game so as a idea (for the sake of fun) role play your next elf as a gem loving brawling drinking yob and your dwarf as a sensitive cultured wimp!
nough said
Delz |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 12:42:53
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| Wasn't there a dwarf in the Drizzt series who served Alustriel and was extremely obsessed about cleanliness? He certainly wasn't a stereotype. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 14:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Wasn't there a dwarf in the Drizzt series who served Alustriel and was extremely obsessed about cleanliness? He certainly wasn't a stereotype.
Tht would be Fret though he was not your typical dwarf, when pushed he can seriously crack heads (with his hammer)
Delz |
I'm Back! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 18:50:27
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I just wanted to drop in and say this was a fascinating discussion, one I've very much enjoyed reading.
As for my own thoughts on the subject:
I see the "elves vs. dwarves" in the frame of duality -- "surface vs. subterranean," "light vs. dark," "grace vs. solidity," "wind vs. earth" (if you want to get elemental about it), "wealthy vs. working class" (my Marxist side).
When the point was made, earlier in the thread, about dwarves representing the "salt-of-the-earth" working class while elves are the erudite and luxurious aristocracy, I think that's very valid. It's all a very romantic (and by that, I mean Romanticism, the movement) idea, and stories from the Romantic era are based on Romanesque style literature, which (perhaps unsurprisingly) glorifies the rich and beautiful while condemning the ordinary and common-place.
I don't want to go farther than that into that, but I think you see where I'm headed. Literature and entertainment has evolved in our world is toward lightness, beauty, and becoming greater than we are.
Who represents that? The graceful, wise elves, or the tough, taciturn dwarves? No contest.
In a sense, dwarves represent that gritty, "work fingers to the bone" sort of "ordinary person." They are what we are.
Elves, on the other hand, are bright and beautiful and graceful. They are what we want to be.
And that's just how fantasy is perceived, I think -- those are the standards.
And Tolkien isn't necessarily to blame for all that -- to my understanding, dwarves come from Nordic mythology (you want to see a pre-LotR fantasy work, check out Wagner's Ring cycle -- I think you'll see some similarities), where they are the grubby, miserly, greedy little filthy monsters who live beneath the earth and forge great things of power. They're really only a step up from goblins because they have great smiths.
Elves are just a kind of faerie, really, and what are faeries? Flighty, erudite, pretty.
So that's how I see it -- why elves are typically more popular than dwarves. They represent what we want to be, not what we are (or what we *don't* want to be).
And another reason there tend to be more elven MCs than dwarven -- well, market research bears out, I think, that people don't like dwarf heroes nearly as much as elf heroes. I imagine for many of the same reasons as I listed above.
The Realms is a different matter, since there we have civilizations that aren't supposed to hold to all those stereotypes. One of my favorite scenes I've read lately was the prologue of The Final Gate, where the elves are seen for all their pomposity and "superiority" to be just as bad as everything they deny about themselves. "Civilized"? Ha.
As for ME -- I rather think elves and dwarves are just that: elves and dwarves. Each coming from an equally-valid but nonetheless very different tradition, with varying cultures and values. Of course dwarves and elves clash, because they value opposite things. I don't think all dwarves are stocky misers, and I don't think all elves are perfect, serene beings.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 19:12:45
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Morlocks vs Eloi.
A culture which valorizes one so highly over the other is out of touch with itself, and badly hurt. |
Edited by - Faraer on 22 Mar 2007 19:15:01 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 00:04:21
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| I agree...but in some ways I'm probably a hypocrite about this issue. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 08:19:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And Tolkien isn't necessarily to blame for all that -- to my understanding, dwarves come from Nordic mythology (you want to see a pre-LotR fantasy work, check out Wagner's Ring cycle -- I think you'll see some similarities), where they are the grubby, miserly, greedy little filthy monsters who live beneath the earth and forge great things of power. They're really only a step up from goblins because they have great smiths.
Elves are just a kind of faerie, really, and what are faeries? Flighty, erudite, pretty.
Cheers
Well, elves, goblins and dwarves are somewhat mixed in their roles in earlier mythology, all are magical creatures that constitute a danger to humans through various forms of temptation. They are the dangers of the underdark, night and the worlds beyond this one. The clear differentiations between them is often of a later nature.
The strange thing is that the elves of folklore is as much a danger and a source of temptation as the dwarves. If you look at the stories of the sidhe in Ireland or earlier fantasy (excluding Tolkien) like Dunsany and Anderson, the elves are still a source of danger to humanity through both their nature and the difference between the two species. Their beauty is more one of danger than one of charming innocence.
The modern fantasy version of elves give them a higher degree of "human" nature, which makes for a closer tie to many readers, but at the same time remove the darker side of the faerie nature. this makes the elves more of an ideal than they originally are and removes the danger and sorrow that is traditionally a part of most romantic notions and stories.
I must admit that i do struggle a bit with the image of elves as an ideal of good and beauty, but this comes mostly from the fact that I am not a Tolkien person and am used to seeing the elves as somewhat more sinister. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 11:55:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
yeah, elves to me are like the Drizzt-clones, then go back to their LoTR Legolas/arwen-alike. which has always annoyed me, so i've never played elves. Might also factor in to why I like Thri-kreen from Dark Sun, they act towards elves like the stereotypical elf acts towards everyone else.
Thri-kreen have a tast for elf flesh. I highly doubt elves treat other humanoids as potential next meals...
Elves darker tones in mythology can be retained in D&D elves by introducing lore about their worldview and attitude on life. The way they can survive in deep forests full of EL 12+ creatures. The way they can adapt to their natural surroundings by actually changing physiques (the various sea/wood/star elves).
Torils elves migrated from Fearie the Fey realm right? This can bring along dark fey like secrets in their ancient past. |
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Why are Elves are more popular than Dwarves?
