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IlexGarodan
Acolyte
Canada
26 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 22:49:43
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All I can say is.. "WOW!"
Several months ago, I found a 10th printing of the PHB-- the one with the Wizard casting spells on some Gargoyles at my local used bookstore. I found it interesting, but I couldn't understand most of it, since I was introduced to D&D at 3/3.5. Naturally, I put it away, where it's been collecting dust ever since.
The past few days, I have been taking a trip away from my hometown. I decided to check out the nearest used bookstore, and lo and behold, I found a 2nd printing of the DMG in perfect condition! Naturally, I just had to have it! Upon partially reviewing the DMG, everything started to make sense! For such an old game system, 1st Edition AD&D seems so simple compared to the 3rd Edition. (Note that I said "seems" not "is". Trying to avoid flamewars here.)
I'll be returning home tomorrow, so I'll have both rulebooks with me. Needless to say, I'll post more when I get home and have both books in front of me.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 23:01:58
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Soon you might find MM, I have them all.
One thing about 1st Edition was there were very few options and the Bard (optional class) was one of the most powerful builds, Assasin of course another powerful build. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 01:41:22
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I've got all the hardcovers from 1st and 2nd edition, including both the original DDG (the one with Elric and Cthulhu) and the "don't sue us, please!" reprint of it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 07:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got ... the original DDG (the one with Elric and Cthulhu)
I have that one too. From a realm's point of view, it's interesting to see the Finnish pantheon. Did Ilmatar, who although androgynous mostly took female form, morph into Ilmater? Or is the similarity mere coincidence? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 11 Mar 2007 07:16:01 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 07:43:45
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The Dungeon Masters Guide, particularly, richly rewards rereading. (And yes, overall it's simpler than 3E, and no, the game has no shortage of genuine options just because the rules don't micromanage them, and wash your mouth out when you say 'build'.)
Ilmater is based on Fritz Leiber's Issek of the Jug, not the Finnish goddess, but the name is probably from the latter -- whether via the Kalevala or other source, or via Deities & Demigods (as the Faerűnian pantheon was developed late in the formative period of the Realms), I don't know. |
Edited by - Faraer on 11 Mar 2007 07:49:53 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:45:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. As I recall, Ilmater only shares the Finnish goddess's name, though we don't know exactly why.
I have speculated with a theory that Ed might have liked to combine several aspects of various deities into a single FR god or goddess (one such example might be Loviatar and Kiputytto). Perhaps he just liked Ilmatar's name? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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IlexGarodan
Acolyte
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2007 : 16:20:47
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| After a week of reading over the DMG and PHB, I am amazed at all of the details that Mr. Gygax managed to pour into the two books! It's like he managed to cram simpler rules into a PHB half the size of the 3rd edition book (which he did )! It's a shame that I can't find any 1st Edition games in my province, since it would be a real excitement trying an older edition. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2007 : 22:38:04
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If you look at Gary's Mythus...scary...tons of detail, and I mean tons...
As for simpler rules...no, I don't think so... OD&D and AD&D weren't really simple, especially if you look at the PHB of that time and realize that none of the relevant rules that make the game playable are available to the player. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2007 : 22:50:55
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| Some of the rules were simpler.... Some were not (like THAC0). But the game itself was simpler, too. You need less rules when there are less possibilities allowed to players. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2007 : 22:58:59
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| But there weren't: rather, the rules are intended to be used at a different level from in 3E, so that those choices are handled by roleplaying and DM improvisation, rather than by individual rules for every little possibility. This is clear from the books, and from what we know of Gary's campaign (and Ed's!). You may not prefer that approach, but it certainly exists! It was of course a deliberate decision that the rules be mostly in the DMG, which payers are not to read. |
Edited by - Faraer on 18 Mar 2007 23:33:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 00:10:34
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I actually saw some of these old hardcovers for sale at my local gaming store. But alas, I was too shy to ask how much they would cost (are they super-expensive?). And the books were set high up enough on the wall so one can't just pull them down from the shelf without feeling silly.
If these books are as great as you guys are saying, maybe I will consider purchasing them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 19 Mar 2007 00:20:03 |
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IlexGarodan
Acolyte
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 00:11:55
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| Actually, I do like that approach, Faraer. That's mainly what I'm doing with my 3.5E campaign-- relying less on Skill Checks and whatnot, and actually describing what their characters are doing. The Skill points are mainly for Prestige Classes in my games, though I do ask for the occasional Spot or Search check. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 00:24:51
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It's Wooly who I gather doesn't.
There's no doubt that the 1E books are densely written, it's nontrivial to decode what a lot of the rules actually are, and some of them are clumsy and/or baroque. Neither is there doubt that the original AD&D works well for what it's written for.
Rinonalyrna, just shake the shelf until all the books fall down.
Because so many were printed, these books can be got pretty cheap, unless one needs really good condition. But individual places may charge a lot more than, say, going eBay prices. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 00:29:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Rinonalyrna, just shake the shelf until all the books fall down.
That's like, the kind of thing I can imagine myself doing, but would never actually do. It's...deviant.
quote:
Because so many were printed, these books can be got pretty cheap, unless one needs really good condition. But individual places may charge a lot more than, say, going eBay prices.
Okay, thanks for the tip. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 05:06:54
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I think y'all are reading me wrong. As I see it, 3.x is the version that, thus far, offers the most possibilities to the players. These possibilities aren't just rules-based or straight role-playing based, it is both. In 1E and 2E, there were so many things that players just didn't have the option of doing, like playing a dwarven mage. As I see it, 3.x has more rules and such because it's designed with letting the players operate without many of the limits that were built in to the prior editions.
Please note that I'm not trying to say any ruleset is inferior or superior to another. I'm just saying that 3.x has more rules because it gives players more options, and thus needs those extra rules. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 05:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Because so many were printed, these books can be got pretty cheap, unless one needs really good condition. But individual places may charge a lot more than, say, going eBay prices.
I don't think I've ever had to pay more than the original cover price for any hardcover from 1E or 2E. I was, though, quite lucky in collecting those. Around the time the Player's Option series started coming out, I found Greyhawk Adventures and the Dungeoneer's and Wilderness Survival Guides at my FLGS, in mint condition (I think he found an old box of unsold ones), for under $10 apiece. I found one copy of the DDG (the second release of it) in an abandoned locker in high school, and a guy I used to work for gave me the original (Cthulhu and Elric) version of that book for free. Several years ago, I got a mint condition, signed by Tracy Hickman copy of Dragonlance Adventures at Flea World for cover price. And so on...
I don't know that you'll have my luck, but I don't think you'd have to spend too much to find them all. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 23:21:37
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| You know, I probably wouldn't have to spend too much money, now that I think about it. The hardcovers that I saw were definitely used--they all had signs of wear and tear (like "white patches"). That doesn't matter to me, I just want the books. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 00:15:30
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Sometimes it is a matter of chance as well, but prices do range from 2 USD to cover price (generally 15 to 20 USD) to rare editions or prime condition books.
All in all 10 USD should be the max you should pay IMO, it just might take a little longer to aquire. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 02:49:08
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I would definitely recommend the 1st edition DMG. 'Twas actually the first D&D book I had -- my junior high school librarian sold it to me for $6 when her son stopped playing the game.
Anyway, it had all sorts of nifty tables in there, including things like various personality features and dungeon dressing. It doesn't compare to the Toolbox by AEG, but it's still got a lot of stuff a DM for any edition can use. And I will always love the "+2 backscratcher" cartoon!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 02:53:39
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| World Builder is an expanded take on the DMG appendices by Gary Gygax himself and Dan Cross. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 10:13:39
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You can pick up 1e and 2e books on ebay VERY easily BUT watch out for the condition!!!
I have bought some to sell and the condition has been really bad, but you can find some nice Mint ones out there.
Alas my good ones have all gone, but I am always getting more! if I find any really good ones I shall let you all know.
Delz
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I'm Back! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 22:50:00
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| All right, thanks everyone for the helpful information. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 23:03:42
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| BTW, nobleknight.com has at least 3 to 5 1e DMG's and PHB's ranging from 10 to 20 dollars. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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IlexGarodan
Acolyte
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2007 : 22:24:03
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I sent Mr. Gygax a "condensed" copy of my first two posts in this thread over at Dragonsfoot.com's forum.
He said the following..
quote:
Hi IlexGarodan,
Feel free to address me as Gary...a gellow gamer after all.
I appreciate the kind words.
You might try Ebay to locate am OAD&D MM.
You are on the right website to find 1E players--ppssibly an online game.
Cheers,
Gary
 I feel... euphoria! Gary Gygax responded to my letter!
Soon, though, I'll have the cash to buy a 1st Edition MM, so... *Shrug* |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 04:28:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some of the rules were simpler.... Some were not (like THAC0). But the game itself was simpler, too. You need less rules when there are less possibilities allowed to players.
The good old days of LG Paladins, Neutral Druids, and level limits on demi-humans (which never ever made logical sense damn that Gygax). |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 04:44:43
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some of the rules were simpler.... Some were not (like THAC0). But the game itself was simpler, too. You need less rules when there are less possibilities allowed to players.
The good old days of LG Paladins, Neutral Druids, and level limits on demi-humans (which never ever made logical sense damn that Gygax).
I still prefer my druids neutral... Demi-human level limits did make a certain amount of sense: keep humans, who didn't have infravision and all the other abilities, appealing as a character race. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 00:24:50
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| Besides, even with the new rules, Paladins (the base class, not paladin-like PrCs and such) still have to be Lawful Good. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 04:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still prefer my druids neutral... Demi-human level limits did make a certain amount of sense: keep humans, who didn't have infravision and all the other abilities, appealing as a character race.
That made sense from a balance standpoint, but never did they make sense from a logical standpoint. How can an elf, a creature of magic who lives hundreds of years, be limited in levels of magic-user but not a human? That always seemed incredibly stupid. Damn that Gygax and he's human-centric views. He wanted to make sure humans were the most played characters, but he missed the boat on the enjoyment of playing other races. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 05:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
That made sense from a balance standpoint, but never did they make sense from a logical standpoint. How can an elf, a creature of magic who lives hundreds of years, be limited in levels of magic-user but not a human?
Ah, the senselessness that was 1E AD&D. Sweet, sweet nostalgia of long nights of debate with my DM and fellow gamers….
True enough, level limits for demi-humans did not seem to make sense except from a perspective of that perilous term ‘game balance’.
However I find that new logic just as unlikely….
Here you have elves and dwarves with no level limits….that live hundreds of years. Technically they should be the highest level characters of any realm, since they can gain experience long after humans are pushing up daisies  and still be in the prime of their life.
Some have argued that these races will only adventure for a small ‘part’ of their life (akin to a wanderlust period)…but I don’t really buy that argument, particularly not with Dwarves.
But regardless of edition, one can always find something to spar against among the D&D rulesets. But hey, that makes for fun discussions in the downtime.
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 15 Jun 2007 05:16:43 |
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Warrax
Learned Scribe
Canada
128 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 16:01:00
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| I have really old MM and MM II books kicking around in a cupboard in my room, the old ones with Asmodeus et al. |
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1st Edition Core Rulebooks
