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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 12:08:51
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Greetings,
For those of you who read my posts, you are aware that soon I will be DMing a campaign that continues on from my Underdark Campaign taking the PC's to Evermeet.
A new player has just joined the group with intention of joining the PC's. He wants to play a minotaur.
After researching some of the published material on minotaur racial traits I have decided to make a few adjustments, which I hope you will commment on, making suggestions for improvements and any criticisms you feel is relevant.
Here is what I have so far -
Alignment: Any
Religion: Tempus, Tyr, Torm
Racial Traits
- +2 strength, +4 constitution, -2 wisdom, -2 charisma
- + 2 natural AC. Minotaurs have a thick hide of fur which adds a natural bonus to their AC
- Large-Size: As large creatures, Minotaurs suffer -1 AC and -4 to Hide skills
- Base Speed: 30ft
- Darkvision: 30ft
- +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks
- Automatic Languages: Minotaur. Bonus Languages: Common, Goblin, Orc
- Favored Class: Fighter
I am aware that there are some stats missing, I'm still sorting these out. But until then what's everybody think?.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 01:03:48
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| Unfortunately, I can't give too much feedback until you add a level adjustment to the Minotaur. So far it looks good, but that is a rough opinion. Until an adjustment appears, I cannot make many suggestions. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 05:38:18
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| Ahhh! Excellent! That was exactly what I needed, thank you Sage of Perth! Well, firstly, based on the ECL it looks overall balanced. The strength and constitution bonuses seem close to right; you might considers switching them, although it's a tough call because Minotaur are just about as strong as they are hearty. The wisdom and charisma penalties are just about right (kinda curious as to why you didn't put a int bonus on, perhaps in place of the wis penalty, but as is, is just fine, just curious). The AC good, although it does come down some because of the size, but increasing it more might overpower the montaur a bit. Speed is good, darkvision is good, and the intimidate bonus makes excellent sense. Overall it's very good, there are a few little alteration that I can foresee, but as it is now it is pretty good. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 22:01:06
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Hmmmm...
You also forgot to mention the important minotaur ability...
Can feed party because it has all the cuts of meat on its person until dead.
I beleive there was a minotaur named Angus that was an expert at feeding people.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 22:21:39
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What??? |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 04:05:56
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Greetings,
Edain Shadowstar said -
quote:
What???
I have to agree with that Edain. mournblade94, if you could please elaborate on what you were talking about.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 04:37:56
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Beef.
One of the most popular selling brands of meat is ANGUS BEEF.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 21:17:39
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| OH! I get it, because minotaurs are part cow...I see, very good one. <Hear's distinct whooshing sound.> |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 14:46:17
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Greetings,
mournblade94 said -
quote:
Beef.
One of the most popular selling brands of meat is ANGUS BEEF.
Very funny, thank you.
You are very strange (in a good way) mournblade94, perhaps you deserve a paragraph or two in my travelogue.
Hmm.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 22:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Greetings,
mournblade94 said -
quote:
Beef.
One of the most popular selling brands of meat is ANGUS BEEF.
Very funny, thank you.
You are very strange (in a good way) mournblade94, perhaps you deserve a paragraph or two in my travelogue.
Hmm.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
I have been told this before, thank you
And I simply would be honored!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Tombo
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2003 : 15:22:25
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Ahhh, the Mighty and Proud Minotaur. That should be a fun campaign to run. I like your racial traits (stat adjustments). However, in my opinion, I would tweak them just a bit. I'd probably make charisma more like -4 and probably change the -2 wisdom to -2 intelligence. Just my opinion of course. Have you ever smelled a bull or cow up close. Usually it's only flies that are interested in getting close to them. They are very dirty, smelly creatures. I imagine that a minotaur's charisma would be greatly affected by a combination of poor hygene habits with a dirty smelly natural odor. Now if the 'person' looking at the Minotaur is also a Minotaur then maybe the charisma adjustment should be 0... but that's operating on an entirely different philosophy for charisma. Anyway, it sounds like fun.
Tom |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2003 : 18:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Tombo
Now if the 'person' looking at the Minotaur is also a Minotaur then maybe the charisma adjustment should be 0... but that's operating on an entirely different philosophy for charisma.
I believe that sort of situation is taken care of in the official lore. Sometimes a class or race, dealing with one of his/her "own," gets a +2 competency bonus on Charisma-related skills, such as Diplomacy, Gather Information -- things like that. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2003 : 12:36:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Whoops!
Sorry, Edain I forgot about that.
As per your request these minotaurs have an ECL of +3
I'd say ECL +1 or maximum +2. They are less powerful than their CE counterparts. (natural CA +5, Charge, Natural Cunning, Bonus skill points, 2 feats free.
I don't think this version is far more powerfull than an aasimar or a tiefling
I'd tell ECL +2. They are far less powerfull than their CE counterparts. They lack the charge ability |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2003 : 09:11:33
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Zemd,
Your suggestions have some validity. I am currently reworking the stats for the minotaur race that I presented here. I'll be sure to post the revised statistics when I'm done.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2003 : 13:40:16
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it may be a little minotaur...
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2003 : 18:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
it may be a little minotaur...
Welcome in the great library of Candlekeep and face the baby minotaur  |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2003 : 17:53:12
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U have defenetly bad jokes Zemd...  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 09:53:22
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| and sprite too i think... |
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unixx
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 19:29:36
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| i am of the opinion that minitours are cunning and even from the book stand point they get certain things to illustrate this. but with the version you have i believe zemd is correct CR+1 +2 max the only thing i can really see changing is the -2 to wis. i mean their all good with mazes and most minitours came around a punishment for disobeying deities (and most of those being fallen paladins) so i would give them -2 to cha. instead of -2 wis. considering they are all fairly intellegent and quick thinky. |
Unixx. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 03:37:02
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I have no idea why you would think a minotaur is clever. They seem to be dumb beastial creatures. Just look at what they are based on... a bull. One of the stupidest animals on the planet. Theseus was able to defeat the minotaur, because he was just a beast. I mean no disrespect, but I NEVER envisioned the Minotaur as a clever creature.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 06:08:51
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Mournblade, I think that Unixx just didn't articulate himself well. (As I said in another post, Unixx, you need to work on that sort of thing.)
The finding-your-way-around ability is represented by wisdom in D&D. That's not the same as intelligence, but he does have a point in that minotaurs are supposed to be good at not getting lost. I think this penalty should be transfered to charisma and intelligence. I also think that some wisdom-based skills (especially Intuit Direction) should have a bonus.
By the way, Mournblade, did you know they think they found the place where the Labyrinth of the Minotaur myth came from? No deformed skeleton in its depths, but there's this palace on Crete that has a maze in it. No real way to prove it, but it looks like that's the main kernel to this myth . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 07:30:50
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Mournblade, I think it is a common misconception amongst many D&D players that minotaurs are 'dumb beastial creatures' as you say. In the Dragonlance setting for example, the minotaurs as a race, are quite keen and intelligent, regularly displaying the cunning of a human and the swiftness of mind like an elf. In fact alot of published stats on DL minotaurs as well as the fan-created DL3e material clearly makes allowances for above average intelligent minotaurs.
And Bookwyrm said -
quote:
By the way, Mournblade, did you know they think they found the place where the Labyrinth of the Minotaur myth came from? No deformed skeleton in its depths, but there's this palace on Crete that has a maze in it. No real way to prove it, but it looks like that's the main kernel to this myth . . . .
Actually Bookwyrm I remember reading something about that not to long ago, it proved very interesting. In fact I believe there is a new book coming out by a major publisher detailing some major diggings that have been carried out recently on the Minoan Palace of Knossos (that would be the palace you mentioned in your post above), and the surrounding environs. It also makes reference to some curious carbon-dating findings about material that is supposedly debris left from the old Labyrinth.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 22:20:43
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WOW thanks Bookwyrm I will have to look into that archaelogical find. Half the fun of D&D for me is trying to figure out where all the different items of the game originates from. I guess I just love studying Evolution.
Sage I know about the Minotaurs of DL. I am sure they are intelligent, but they are unique to DL. (and here I go again) but so are KENDER, and if the minotaurs were so smart they would of Devoured them all off the face of Krynn
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2003 : 07:35:51
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Intelligent minotaurs, as I see it are not just unique to Krynn. Of the few portrayals of minotaurs in the Realms, rarely have they displayed the beastial nature, that they are sometimes described as having. And just as a base comparison, humans in the Realms can sometimes be just as beastial, yet they are mostly described as having normal intelligence. So I guess it really depends on how one interpretes things.
Mournblade, if you could direct me to FR material that illustrates minotaurs as the beastial monsters you describe them as, I would like to read it, and make a comparison study, it sounds interesting .
It seems as though everyone has different perceptions on how minotaurs should be represented. I like that diversity because it adds a level of complexity and originality to the game that we all love.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 28 May 2003 07:36:26 |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2003 : 21:11:58
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| A large part of the commonly percieved beastial mentality of Minotaur comes from the classic Minoan culture, where the idea of the minotaur was first concieved. The minotaur, the half-man, half-bull born by King Minos' wife was depicted largely as a strong, yet perhaps somewhat slow-witted creature, as was a popular concept of Greek mythologies (the hero was often clever, using not just physical prowess but also intelligence to defeat mighty and strong opponents). Now, of course there can be some expected deviation in a fantastic setting from the mor emythological roots, however since the minotaur is half-bull, half-man, I do find it a bit hard to believe her could be much smarter than an average human, but they certantly are not dumb as the average goblin. Frankly I prefer to think of minotaurs with, for the most part, a bit sub-human intelligence, but definately not moronic, beastial creatures exhibiting no rational thoughts. Now, in a game rules sense, any creature with such an impressive strength and stamina should be penalized somewhere (though for a minotaur I firmly believe they should recieve dexterity and charisma penatlies). |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 08:46:17
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Thank you for the name, Sage -- that was the place I was referring to. I just didn't have the information right in front of me, and was feeling too lazy to go and fetch something not exactly crucial to what I was saying. 
As I said before, they should have some sort of bonus to wisdom, or to a finding-your-way-around sense like Intuit Direction. I'd favor the latter (say, a +2 bonus to Intuit Direction checks, and it is a class skill no matter the actual class). Perhaps a 'scent' ability? I'm not sure exactly what that does, being so behind in my reading, but I just have this image of a minotaur sniffing at the air and directing his party accordingly.
As for making the minotaur too powerful -- that's what the ECL is there to take care of, remember? It's really a very good system for that. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 03:50:56
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| Bonus to Intuit Direction does seem appropriate, since classically, though the Minotaur was slow-witted he could move quickly through the labryinth while other's wandered about, lost. It would also be appropriate for a Minotaur to benefit from sharp hearing and scent, although I believe bulls suffer from poor eye sight, which might translate,at least slightly, to a penalty for the Minotaur. Again, a dexterity penatly fits since they tender to be the lumbering giant types, strong and hearty, but not very agile. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Minotaurs
