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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2012 : 10:41:50
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I've been wondering about vampires in the Realms, in connection with D&D stats for such critters.
In the 2e Monster Manual, vampires drain levels. Nothing is mentioned about their methods of so doing, but I seem to recall novels or short stories establishing any physical contact as being enough. Going by the actual monster listing, there wouldn't really be any reason to expect 2e D&D vampires to drink blood.
On the other hand, the existence of the Regalia of the Night King in Westgate suggests that vampires in the Realms do require blood for substenance, even back in 2e days.
Of course, in 3e, vampires do have a Blood Drain ability, but it seems rather low-utility compared to their slam + level drain attack and, of course, 3e moved away from text that provides information on creatures as other than combat encounters, so there is not much about whether vampires need blood or even whether they prefer it to life energy.
Are there different types of 'vampires' in the Realms, some who drink blood and others who do not? Or do they all drink blood and the fact that the 2e monster stats make no mention of it and assign it no game effect is just a coincidence, fixed with 3e?
I ask because I stat out things in the Realms for another game system* and generally convert based on in-setting description and powers, regardless of how something may have been presented due to limitations of each D&D edition. I'm trying to present each character or monster the way it actually works in the setting, or, at least, the way it should work, to be consistent with the source material as well as fulfilling its role in the narrative.
Ought Orlak II/Orbagh the Night King be a blood-sucking menace or merely a life-draining one? Is it thematically suitable and consistent with prior lore if vampires in the Realms can heal their own wounds, but only if they drink blood? Ought Realms vampires starve without blood? Ought level-draining victims provide them with sustenance equal or superior to draining their blood? Ought vampires be able to suck blood and drain levels at the same time?
*GURPS. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2012 : 12:06:56
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I always had the impression that the vampire was a level-draining - and not a blood-sucking - monster so players could better fight them. If a vampire sucks blood, he or she must grab his victim, who must somehow be defenseless. A vampire would never attack someone in full awareness, nor someone whose friends could be around to defend. Neither would him or her attack a hero if the blood of a peasant would do for him/her.
Maybe having them as level drainers could also avoid dealing with the violence/blood/seduction issues that prevented some creatures from showing up in earlier editions.
I haven't used vampires - or vampyres, or nosferatu - in my games, but it is something I consider, and then I will probably use a blood sucking monster in a situation in which one hero can save another, or an NPC. Finally, I think this problem has much to do with the difference between literature, mythology and gaming. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2012 : 14:20:58
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| The 2E Van Richten's Guide even shows some Vampires requiring other unique sources of biological sustenace such as: bone marrow, spinal fluid, etc. Definitely more rare and exotic than your everday errr everynight bloodsucker. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2012 : 18:22:11
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2E Ravenloft lore in general - and Van Richten's Guide most specifically - clarify the "in setting" and rule mechanisms, methods, and parameters for vampire feeding habits in meticulously grisly detail. Enough to suffice for most AD&D gaming purposes anyhow - one would need to look to non-D&D sources (such as the Vampire: The Masquerade RPG) to invent further detail.
AD&D vampires were originally just another random undead adventurers might find somewhere in a dungeon, based somewhat on their depictions in horror movies of the 70s and 80s, in Ravenloft and 3E they became more varied, specialized, sexy, and sinister à la popular 90s stuff like Anne Rice and Buffy/Angel.
AD&D vampyres were defined in 2E as a living (non-undead) race which had "evolved" into a niche as predators who feed upon humans, perhaps (at best) as a nerfed low-level challenge or a puzzle to confuse more experienced PCs. An interesting notion, but utterly wasted in a setting where there's already plenty of competing races who need no help in their predations of humanity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12252 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 12:26:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I've been wondering about vampires in the Realms, in connection with D&D stats for such critters.
In the 2e Monster Manual, vampires drain levels. Nothing is mentioned about their methods of so doing, but I seem to recall novels or short stories establishing any physical contact as being enough. Going by the actual monster listing, there wouldn't really be any reason to expect 2e D&D vampires to drink blood.
On the other hand, the existence of the Regalia of the Night King in Westgate suggests that vampires in the Realms do require blood for substenance, even back in 2e days.
Of course, in 3e, vampires do have a Blood Drain ability, but it seems rather low-utility compared to their slam + level drain attack and, of course, 3e moved away from text that provides information on creatures as other than combat encounters, so there is not much about whether vampires need blood or even whether they prefer it to life energy.
Are there different types of 'vampires' in the Realms, some who drink blood and others who do not? Or do they all drink blood and the fact that the 2e monster stats make no mention of it and assign it no game effect is just a coincidence, fixed with 3e?
I ask because I stat out things in the Realms for another game system* and generally convert based on in-setting description and powers, regardless of how something may have been presented due to limitations of each D&D edition. I'm trying to present each character or monster the way it actually works in the setting, or, at least, the way it should work, to be consistent with the source material as well as fulfilling its role in the narrative.
Ought Orlak II/Orbagh the Night King be a blood-sucking menace or merely a life-draining one? Is it thematically suitable and consistent with prior lore if vampires in the Realms can heal their own wounds, but only if they drink blood? Ought Realms vampires starve without blood? Ought level-draining victims provide them with sustenance equal or superior to draining their blood? Ought vampires be able to suck blood and drain levels at the same time?
*GURPS.
A LOOOONNNNGGGG time ago back during second edition, there was a different type of vampire called a vampyre... and I don't believe that I had the original source material and just some stats from maybe undermountain? This "vampyre" had some kind of link to fire. Someone earlier mentioned their hands were on fire. Anyway, I recall fixating on that a bit when I developed the "Cult of Kossuth". I actually had a painter who was turned into a Vampyre, and thus he was no longer able to paint in his normal medium any longer. It drove him insane until he grew to embrace his newfound gift and took up burning living things as an artform. I wish I could say I did much more with it than that, but I think that's about as far as I took it (the players killed him along with the Efreeti who acted like Mark Twain). However, that being said, it would be interesting to have this "type" of vampire around. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 18:38:43
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| It looks like the story of Jander Sunstar in the Realms/Ravenloft setting. With the Undermountain vampyre curse, instead of the regular vampire. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3775 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 02:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
It looks like the story of Jander Sunstar in the Realms/Ravenloft setting. With the Undermountain vampyre curse, instead of the regular vampire.
-Elven Vampires got their own special stats/write-ups/powers. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 06:20:56
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| 2E Ravenloft detailed different vampire species for each demihuman race (Jander is one of these), plus a number of special/unique ones such as the illithid vampire. I'm unaware of any canon variations on vampyres. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 14:40:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
It looks like the story of Jander Sunstar in the Realms/Ravenloft setting. With the Undermountain vampyre curse, instead of the regular vampire.
-Elven Vampires got their own special stats/write-ups/powers.
I'll correct myself, then: sleyvas' story looks like Jander Sunstar's, but while in sleyvas' tale the protagonist is a vampyre, Jander is a different sort of vampire - I remembered his level draining from plants as something unique, but I've seen now that the plant withering is commom to other elven vampires. Anyway, it is closer to a regular vampire life drain ability than setting fire to the things he touches.
Besides, I never thought of Jander as a Ravenloft elven vampire because he is a little different. I've seen him turn into a golden wolf, never into an eagle (normal or giant), he doesn't wear black clothes, and retains his beauty untouched, as far as I remember. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 22 Mar 2012 14:50:59 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 17:44:07
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Jander's story was originally told in I, Strahd, although I think it and his abilities have been elaborated in subsequent material ... he is something of a template for elven vampires, yet he is also unique. I recall his level draining of plants was actually a curse rather than an ability: Ravenloft's special little twist to inflict more misery and despair upon him, his touch brought instant wilting death to growing green things.
I actually considered the dwarven vampires really cool and interesting, though I felt D&D's typical "one of every kind" penchant was carried, as usual, into silly extremes. In any event, Van Richten's Guide details all sorts of variations and possibilities since no two vampires (of any given race) are alike in Ravenloft. Any vampire might (or might not) possess abilities and affinities with wolves, bats, eagles, ravens, masses of vermin, or insect swarms. Jander is really nothing special in my mind. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37018 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 18:15:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Jander's story was originally told in I, Strahd, although I think it and his abilities have been elaborated in subsequent material ... he is something of a template for elven vampires, yet he is also unique. I recall his level draining of plants was actually a curse rather than an ability: Ravenloft's special little twist to inflict more misery and despair upon him, his touch brought instant wilting death to growing green things.
I actually considered the dwarven vampires really cool and interesting, though I felt D&D's typical "one of every kind" penchant was carried, as usual, into silly extremes. In any event, Van Richten's Guide details all sorts of variations and possibilities since no two vampires (of any given race) are alike in Ravenloft. Any vampire might (or might not) possess abilities and affinities with wolves, bats, eagles, ravens, masses of vermin, or insect swarms. Jander is really nothing special in my mind.
Actually, Jander's story was first told in Vampire of the Mists, which was, as I recall, the first Ravenloft novel. (I had several Ravenloft novels before the fire, and Vampire of the Mists was one of the only two that I replaced)
I do agree, though, that he was the template for elven vampires in Ravenloft. I'm pretty sure the many different flavors of vampire were intro'ed in a Monstrous Compendium appendix that came out after the first handful of Ravenloft novels. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 18:23:01
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| You're probably right, Mister Furball. I voraciously read all the Ravenloft novels in a couple of days (they were sort of "on loan") ... so now, decades later, I really have no clue what happened in which novel, they're all just a dark tapestry with blurred threads. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 01:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Jander's story was originally told in I, Strahd, although I think it and his abilities have been elaborated in subsequent material ... he is something of a template for elven vampires, yet he is also unique. I recall his level draining of plants was actually a curse rather than an ability: Ravenloft's special little twist to inflict more misery and despair upon him, his touch brought instant wilting death to growing green things.
I actually considered the dwarven vampires really cool and interesting, though I felt D&D's typical "one of every kind" penchant was carried, as usual, into silly extremes. In any event, Van Richten's Guide details all sorts of variations and possibilities since no two vampires (of any given race) are alike in Ravenloft. Any vampire might (or might not) possess abilities and affinities with wolves, bats, eagles, ravens, masses of vermin, or insect swarms. Jander is really nothing special in my mind.
Actually, Jander's story was first told in Vampire of the Mists, which was, as I recall, the first Ravenloft novel. (I had several Ravenloft novels before the fire, and Vampire of the Mists was one of the only two that I replaced)
Vampire of the Mists was indeed the first RAVENLOFT novel. But Ayrik is partly on the mark with Jander's origin being recounted in I, Strahd as well.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 01:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You're probably right, Mister Furball. I voraciously read all the Ravenloft novels in a couple of days (they were sort of "on loan") ... so now, decades later, I really have no clue what happened in which novel, they're all just a dark tapestry with blurred threads.
Jander's vague fate at the end of Vampire of the Mists was updated in the 3e RL books published by White Wolf. We still don't know anything more about what happened afterward though, unfortunately. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 08:12:05
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I understand the White Wolf products were produced under special license, but are they considered canon? Has WotC "officially" (or at least implicitly) adopted any of this material as a basis within subsequent canon products?
I, Strahd wouldn't be at all exceptional in retelling or expanding a tale which had been told in a previous novel. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 15:41:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I understand the White Wolf products were produced under special license, but are they considered canon? Has WotC "officially" (or at least implicitly) adopted any of this material as a basis within subsequent canon products?
It's difficult to properly answer this, because Wizards' really hasn't done anything expansive with the RAVENLOFT license since they've reclaimed it. So it's hard to say where exactly the previous material sits in terms of canonical RAVENLOFT lore.
The 3e material for the setting is official in terms of it being licensed by Wizards. And, as I recall, some bits were given a slight nod in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft tome.
It's probably the most accurate for us to assume that it's still canon until Wizards' publishes something new for the setting that says otherwise.
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Mar 2012 15:43:00 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 17:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I understand the White Wolf products were produced under special license, but are they considered canon? Has WotC "officially" (or at least implicitly) adopted any of this material as a basis within subsequent canon products?
The answer is yes. I used lore from White Wolf products when working up the profile for Count Strahd von Zarovich in Open Grave. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37018 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 17:45:29
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| I would imagine that part of the licensing agreement allowed WotC to use or ignore any of the White Wolf material, as they saw fit. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3775 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 18:39:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Jander's vague fate at the end of Vampire of the Mists was updated in the 3e RL books published by White Wolf. We still don't know anything more about what happened afterward though, unfortunately.
-Was his story in Realms of Valor chronologically before or after? I only vaguely remember the story itself, in relation to Vampire of the Mists. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37018 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 21:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Jander's vague fate at the end of Vampire of the Mists was updated in the 3e RL books published by White Wolf. We still don't know anything more about what happened afterward though, unfortunately.
-Was his story in Realms of Valor chronologically before or after? I only vaguely remember the story itself, in relation to Vampire of the Mists.
As I recall, it was an earlier tale of Jander, before he took that one-way ride on the misty bus. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 00:58:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I understand the White Wolf products were produced under special license, but are they considered canon? Has WotC "officially" (or at least implicitly) adopted any of this material as a basis within subsequent canon products?
The answer is yes. I used lore from White Wolf products when working up the profile for Count Strahd von Zarovich in Open Grave.
I'm not entirely sure how Wizards works on this, but I would think this wouldn't be a YES for including everything from the 3e RL material, eh Brian?
After all, those books divorced a lot of the historical TSR background for many of the Domains and NPCs taken from previously established worlds like the Realms and Krynn -- instead replacing them with vague references to what hinted at these worlds, rather than mentioning them directly by name. Which, ultimately, changed a little of the backgrounds for those characters and Domains based on TSR worlds.
So I would imagine that Wizards would return those interconnected histories to their characters and Domains, should they published new RAVENLOFT material. This would probably retcon a lot of what White Wolf published.
Including material about Strahd from the White Wolf products is relatively easy in terms of bringing him back to core D&D, because he was never from an established D&D world anyway, and his backstory in 3e RAVENLOFT was left largely unchanged. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 01:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would imagine that part of the licensing agreement allowed WotC to use or ignore any of the White Wolf material, as they saw fit.
Pick and choose, most definitely. Because, as I said to Brian above, there was a [sometimes very specific] disconnect between the histories of the TSR-era RAVENLOFT Domains and NPCs, and what was published for the Domains and NPCs by White Wolf. I don't think Wizards would overlook the historical impact of the importance of characters in the Domains of Dread who were originally from the Realms or Oerth, for example. Especially if they want to maintain the connection between worlds via planar travel. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 01:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Jander's vague fate at the end of Vampire of the Mists was updated in the 3e RL books published by White Wolf. We still don't know anything more about what happened afterward though, unfortunately.
-Was his story in Realms of Valor chronologically before or after? I only vaguely remember the story itself, in relation to Vampire of the Mists.
All three tales -- "One Last Drink" from Realms of Valor, "The Quiet Place" from Realms of Magic, and "Blood Sport" from Realms of Infamy -- detail historical points in Jander's life before he was taken by the Mists into Ravenloft in Vampire of the Mists. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3775 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 14:57:28
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-Thanks.
-It's too bad the character never got "picked up on" as the 2000s rolled around. With the laxing of TSRs morality codes as time moved on, his story could have been one similar to Drizzt, but better, with the self-loathing, and fear and misunderstanding, and everything else. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 24 Mar 2012 14:57:42 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 16:07:31
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As I understand it, by 2000AD (and D&D 3E) TSR was really little more than a brandname being marketed by WotC. Oddly enough, I view Wizbro's publishing guidelines as having generally become more rigid (and more vague) over the years, especially since 4E, to the point where they still walk on glass even with content which society already tolerates in many other media. My theory has long been that this is due to Hasbro's deliberate strategy of marketing the D&D brand to families and young audiences.
Be that as it may, a few anomalous products have been released, most notably the Book of Vile Darkness. And many of the FR novels (at least those I read circa late-3E) have certainly been allowed more leeway in applying a darker, dirtier, grittier tone to the Realms.
I think the fact of the matter is that Ravenloft (along with Spelljammer, Planescape, and other product lines) just never really sold that well, or if it did then the numbers were lost behind too many uncertainties. Ravenloft might be iconic but it's just too much of a gamble from a revenue perspective ... so Wizbro will just sit on it indefinitely and we won't really see any more canon Ravenloft (et al) material until and unless they feel ready to test the waters again. I'm sure there are some reasons beyond my understanding, reasons which are elegantly logical or bureaucratically asinine. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Mar 2012 16:11:36 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 23:00:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I always had the impression that the vampire was a level-draining - and not a blood-sucking - monster so players could better fight them. If a vampire sucks blood, he or she must grab his victim, who must somehow be defenseless. A vampire would never attack someone in full awareness, nor someone whose friends could be around to defend. Neither would him or her attack a hero if the blood of a peasant would do for him/her.
Well, if vampires are faster and stronger than humans, they shouldn't have much trouble grappling humans and draining them dry. Certainly vampires in World of Darkness, GURPS and a range of other systems can do so.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Maybe having them as level drainers could also avoid dealing with the violence/blood/seduction issues that prevented some creatures from showing up in earlier editions.
That, on the other hand, is likely.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I haven't used vampires - or vampyres, or nosferatu - in my games, but it is something I consider, and then I will probably use a blood sucking monster in a situation in which one hero can save another, or an NPC. Finally, I think this problem has much to do with the difference between literature, mythology and gaming.
I'm leaning toward allowing them to drain levels (eh, well, equivalent in my system) with a solid touch, such as a grapple, and also to drain Con (equivalent) with a bite. They'll use their charm gaze to do this, most often, but are more than strong and fast enough to do it in combat if they have to. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 23:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I always had the impression that the vampire was a level-draining - and not a blood-sucking - monster so players could better fight them. If a vampire sucks blood, he or she must grab his victim, who must somehow be defenseless. A vampire would never attack someone in full awareness, nor someone whose friends could be around to defend. Neither would him or her attack a hero if the blood of a peasant would do for him/her.
Well, if vampires are faster and stronger than humans, they shouldn't have much trouble grappling humans and draining them dry. Certainly vampires in World of Darkness, GURPS and a range of other systems can do so.
In fact, I think early editions lacked "finesse", and decisions like that were taken to simplify combat. Besides, maybe they chose not to make vampires simply stronger and faster than humans considering they were in a world where high level characters can have magical items that would make them easy to defeat. So, level draining with a mere touch would make them a greater challenge. Finally, it is possible that they didn't want the vampire to rely on both strength and charm (and high level PCs would save, anyway).
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Vampires/Vampyres?
