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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 22:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
By the way Wizards have already broken the gay novel character taboo however as it was used in the worst FR novel ever written I dont think WOTC will be that keen to give it another go
Well, a certain villian in the Watercourse trilogy (by that very same author) is very strongly implied to have homosexual tendencies. And he's actually a man (gay men seem rarer in novels then lesbians).
Also, regarding Imoen, it might not be fair to say that Athans "turned Imoen into a lesbian", since the games that the novels are based on never actually stated or implied what Imoen's sexual orientation might be (it could have been anything, but Imoen's often assumed to have been straight). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Jan 2007 23:05:37 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 22:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
I'm certainly in agreement with Erik, Richard, Rino etc. in that I find the taboos about sex and nudity ridiculous, but I do think that some censorship of violence also goes too far. There is too much media hype about TV/computer games/D&D/Marilyn Manson/Pokemon/you know it 'causing' people to do whatever.
I agree--I'm usually not in favor of censoring sex or violence because arguments in favor of that are usually along the line of "But if we don't, people will get ideas!", and I don't buy that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 01:36:46
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As has already been stated, this is completely a societal issue. Some of us might not like the way it is, but we have far more freedom here (by that I mean the U.S.) than we do in other parts of the world. As far as I know, there are still places that condemn fiction, much less the use of sex and/or violence. There are also still cultures that don’t allow women to show their faces in public, and have no qualms over murdering them if they wish a divorce (so as not to disgrace the male family). Yes, that stuff happens, and so in the whole scheme of things, we don’t have it so bad.
Not that I think our culture is perfect, far from it, but it could be a lot worse (and I suppose it still might be if this “world religion” makes it further our way. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 03:10:21
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Originally posted by wwwwwww
As has already been stated, this is completely a societal issue. Some of us might not like the way it is, but we have far more freedom here (by that I mean the U.S.) than we do in other parts of the world.
I totally agree with that, but just because we have it better than in other places doesn't mean we have to stay satisfied with things just as they are. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 03:20:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I totally agree with that, but just because we have it better than in other places doesn't mean we have to stay satisfied with things just as they are.
Of course, you're right. But with the absolute massive size of population the U.S. has, finding a medium is nearly/entirely impossible. What one person thinks is perfect, another will deem outragous . . . and vice-versa. There are so many factors/issues that people find uncompromising (religion,race,ethics,etc.,etc.,etc.). That's the world we live in.
So . . . |
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Grimbolt Hammerhand
Acolyte
Germany
15 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2007 : 17:50:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lysan Lurraxol
I don't want a return to the godawful Comic book Code, but it seems strange the series is so prudish about sex, yet sometimes ridiculously violent.
I read this and asked myself if some FR adventures I created or played were based on violence. Well, the answer was "yes" 
Let´s face it: Fighting and combat are very important parts of roleplaying-games. I ´ve got a bunch of sourcebooks which are mostly about killing creatures you don´t like  So it is no wonder that the FR-novels reflect this combat based style.
Sex and adult relationships on the other hand are not a very important part of the game although I remember a "D&D Book Of Sex" for 2E, but this was not an official release, I guess  .
By the way: I don´t want to know what Manshoon does in his bedchamber. Might be a truely horrible experience  |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2007 : 23:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Grimbolt Hammerhand
By the way: I don´t want to know what Manshoon does in his bedchamber. Might be a truely horrible experience
I imagine he's a very sweet lover . . . with a foot fetish.
"Oh, SHOONY!"
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2007 : 23:28:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Grimbolt Hammerhand
Sex and adult relationships on the other hand are not a very important part of the game although I remember a "D&D Book Of Sex" for 2E, but this was not an official release, I guess .
Well, I do believe the novels should stand alone as novels and not just be reflections of the game.
My main complaint is not that there should be more sex in these novels and less violence (though I certainly wouldn't mind more sex), it's that the natural progression of human relationships can't be too explicit, whereas a near-pornographic level of violence description is allowed. But as others have rightly said, that double standard is a part of certain cultures (including my own) and is not likely to change anytime soon. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 03:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Grimbolt Hammerhand
By the way: I don´t want to know what Manshoon does in his bedchamber. Might be a truely horrible experience
I imagine he's a very sweet lover . . . with a foot fetish.
"Oh, SHOONY!"
Cheers
"Who's your clone? Who's your clone?"
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Grimbolt Hammerhand
Acolyte
Germany
15 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 12:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Grimbolt Hammerhand
Sex and adult relationships on the other hand are not a very important part of the game although I remember a "D&D Book Of Sex" for 2E, but this was not an official release, I guess .
Well, I do believe the novels should stand alone as novels and not just be reflections of the game.
You´re right.
The problem is, that I´m not able to do this. I came from the game to the novels, so I always see the gaming background first. That doesn´t mean that I think the novels were badly written or would be boring without the FR-background, most of them are actually much better then some stand-alone books, which I have read during the last months.
BTW: Found something interesting here: http://www.acc.umu.se/~stradh/dnd/mirror/Assorted/ADnD_netbook_of_sex.html |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 16:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Grimbolt Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Grimbolt Hammerhand
Sex and adult relationships on the other hand are not a very important part of the game although I remember a "D&D Book Of Sex" for 2E, but this was not an official release, I guess .
Well, I do believe the novels should stand alone as novels and not just be reflections of the game.
You´re right.
The problem is, that I´m not able to do this. I came from the game to the novels, so I always see the gaming background first. That doesn´t mean that I think the novels were badly written or would be boring without the FR-background, most of them are actually much better then some stand-alone books, which I have read during the last months.
BTW: Found something interesting here: http://www.acc.umu.se/~stradh/dnd/mirror/Assorted/ADnD_netbook_of_sex.html
There is actually a book written for 3.5E about such things: the Book of Erotic Fantasy. It's a 3rd party book, but it is written by one of WotC's folks.
I really don't know too much about the book; I've avoided most 3rd party stuff, and what little I know of the book hasn't prompted me to buy it. I've nothing against it; I simply don't see that I need it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 19:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I'm a big fan of fictional violence, because the world and people are violent, 'gratuitously' so, and art that dodges violence can have neither a mimetic or cathartic function.
So hearing accusations of fictional violence 'just used for shock effect' sets off my alarm bells. 1. Who sez? 2. Who sez shock effect is 'just' or bad?
I've only skimmed these books, but tend to agree that bowdlerized drow would be much more offensive. But I also think the whole concept of evil drow as protagonists is morally and artistically dubious at best.
You ... you ... Aristotelean, you!
Ahem.
Anyone who thinks that FR novels are "too violent" is (if I may write bluntly) totally clueless as to just how really extreme violence reads. To use a fairly tame example: Oedipus gouging out both of his own eyes with his mother's cloak pin after she hangs herself (upon learning that she's married to her son, who had killed his father, her late husband).
How about Medea chopping up her brother piecemeal and throwing his corpse overboard a bit at a time to slow down her pursuing father ... only to rid herself of her husband's mistress (and her own children) with fire ... and "rejeuvenating" her father-in-law?!?!
Then there's history: The whole population of Balkh slaughtered and the skulls of the citizens piled up in a pyramid. Ten thousand people slaughtered by Fundamentalist Aztecs in one religious rite to inaugurate one of their pyramids. The Melian male population slaughtered and the women and children sold into slavery - a replay of The Trojan Women, except that the Melians didn't do anything to provoke their national destruction. The Lord's Resistance Army chopping off the arms and lips of women after raping them. Alexander "the Great" committing genocide throughout central Asia, wiping out centuries-old kingdoms so that they have left no genetic trace today. Charles "the Great" killing ten thousand Saxon martyrs to convince them of the virtues of Roman Catholicism. Vlad Tepes having the hats of Turkish ambassadors hammered to their skulls to convince them of the virtue of doffing their hats to him. The pseudo-Christian "Great Kingdom of Heavenly Peace" and the Manchu government killing thirty million Chinese people ... but still leaving enough Chinese around for the Maoists to kill thirty million more of them in "The Great Leap Forward" and "The Cultural Revolution." (And orcs and goblins and drow are "Evil" ... why?)
Bah! Enough real world violence. This game is called "Dungeons and Dragons." Is their anything about that title which suggests anything beside torture and death?! Never mind the "dungeon" part -- what role do dragons usually play in this game, hmmm? Ancient, sentient, magic-rich creatures whose sole function seems to be to commit a few atrocities and then to be killed by a rapacious gang composed of two humans, an elf, a dwarf, a Hobbi ... er ... halfling or three, including (inevitably) one or two "fighters" (i.e, people whose sole function in society is to kill), a magic user whose principal function is to kill a lot of things at once, a thief (whose principal class ability is murder), and a "cleric" whose sole function is not the welfare of souls, but rather making certain that the others are fit and hale enough to keep killing other sentient beings. Where in any of that is there an expectation of non-violence?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 19:39:46
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Well, first of all "to violent" is different to each person. One slap in three hundred pages might be to much for some people. I agree that the violence in a Realms novel is not much in comparison with much found both in real life and literature myth, but there is the question of how it is written and what role it plays in the story. Generally writers like Donaldson and Moorcock, to keep this to fantasy, will go through a much higher body count and a much larger degree of both violence and suffering, but each fight is usually not page upon page of fight scenes. The same goes for the myths; Oedipus and Medea did not do their acts in a ten page description.
As for the expectations that comes with a novel tied to the D&D game, I agree with you on this, but that does not mean that it is an aspect I enjoy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 20:20:00
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| We should likely shy away from discussions of real-world violence. There are many things in world history that prove to be sensitive areas for some groups. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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quajack
Seeker
86 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2007 : 19:01:14
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| Body counts and violence do not bother me. As long as I don't have to flip through multiple pages of fight scenes. If it's shocking, I'll take it. If it's 5 pages of Drizzt versus and orc, I'll pass. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2007 : 23:52:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is actually a book written for 3.5E about such things: the Book of Erotic Fantasy. It's a 3rd party book, but it is written by one of WotC's folks.
That would be 3.0 (I believe -- I think it predates 3.5) and Gwendolyn Kestrel.
quote:
I really don't know too much about the book; I've avoided most 3rd party stuff, and what little I know of the book hasn't prompted me to buy it. I've nothing against it; I simply don't see that I need it.
It isn't the kind of thing that belongs in all campaigns. If you're running Rice/Hamilton/Carey/some of the later Herbert-esque adventures (where sex is extremely important to the plot, or at least very present), then yeah, go for it. If you're not up on people gaining mystic benefits from sex or having battles in the bedchamber (ala Heretics of Dune), then it's not necessary.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2007 : 03:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, first of all "to violent" is different to each person. One slap in three hundred pages might be to much for some people. I agree that the violence in a Realms novel is not much in comparison with much found both in real life and literature myth, but there is the question of how it is written and what role it plays in the story. Generally writers like Donaldson and Moorcock, to keep this to fantasy, will go through a much higher body count and a much larger degree of both violence and suffering, but each fight is usually not page upon page of fight scenes. The same goes for the myths; Oedipus and Medea did not do their acts in a ten page description.
As for the expectations that comes with a novel tied to the D&D game, I agree with you on this, but that does not mean that it is an aspect I enjoy.
Agreed. It's hard to beat Elric (and the Melniboneans generally) for sheer perverse cruelty and tragic violence without getting into the literature of psychopathology. Since Wooly brought up pathos and catharsis, I dare say that Elric's saga leaves even the Greeks in the dust. There's a guy who just can't catch a break! -- "Hmmm ... do I kill my dearest friend or do I destroy the entire multiverse?" -- He makes Orestes seem like a litterbug in a park by comparison!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2007 : 07:33:59
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| Oh, I don't know, the books about Thomas Covenant are even more of a constant battering of the, at least somewhat, undeserving hero. I have no problem with tragedy, violence, sex etc as long as it is well written and is a part of the story. Strangely enough I find myself bored to tears by Martin. What I do have a problem with is formalistic fighting and killing to make it an "action" story. Now this is very varying in FR books, but to my taste it is still to much. I'd rather have two bloody and disturbing killings than a thirty-corps slash-fest. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2007 : 09:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lysan Lurraxol
I was just re-reading Insurrection, when it struck me just how graphically violent the book was (Faeryl's demise).
A lot of the newer FR books have a lot of unnecessarily violent scenes in them, which detract from the plot. Does anyone else think it's just too much?
Hmm, it's been a while since I've read the series and I'm not likely to want to re-read them in the near future (especially since I've recently begun my triennial reading of H.P. Lovecraft's stories.) However, from what I recall I didn't find the violence too graphic but I did get annoyed at the naff clichés. Jeggred telling Ryld that 'It's personal' nearly caused me to throw the book away in disgust.
The other thing is the drow in this series, and in others, use violence in a chaotic stupid way. This causes no end of problems to those of us who have to deal with players and DM's who are filled with such conceptions. As I often say drow have a +2 modifier to their intelligence for a reason. If that snippet of advice doesn't sink in I usually kill their PC's with a higher level NPC, since that's what drow do - according to them.
For me, the War of the Spider Queen showed great promise with both books I & II, but through a succession of poor continuity, main characters acting weakly and C movie dialogue descended into mediocrity.
To return to the topic of violence, I think it is used too much. Probably because it's 'safe evil.' We can all think of evil things to do another person which does not result in their physical harm. However, such things tend to increase the age ratings of books. Violence, unfortunately, happens in playgrounds across the world. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Grimbolt Hammerhand
Acolyte
Germany
15 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2007 : 16:39:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Oh, I don't know, the books about Thomas Covenant are even more of a constant battering of the, at least somewhat, undeserving hero. I have no problem with tragedy, violence, sex etc as long as it is well written and is a part of the story. Strangely enough I find myself bored to tears by Martin. What I do have a problem with is formalistic fighting and killing to make it an "action" story. Now this is very varying in FR books, but to my taste it is still to much. I'd rather have two bloody and disturbing killings than a thirty-corps slash-fest.
I just love the books about Thomas Covenant and I don´t consider them as extremely violent. It´s just Covenant´s sad and deranged personality which makes some parts touching and also quite frightening.
Generally I have no problem with violence in novels, movies or comic books. After all, violent scenes are no more than artistic reflections of our reality. And, if you like it or not, the real world is an extremely violent place, so why should a fantasy setting, created by inhabitants of our violent reality, be any different?
I also have no problems with explicit "adult scenes", because that´s also a part of life. (And thank god for that ) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2007 : 17:54:55
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I don't mean that the Covenant books are to violent, but the violence is harsh, tragic and brutal. I am especially talking about book 2. Elric has the mythical characters knowledge of his tragedy in many ways, whereas Thomas' tragedy is much more complex, as is the troubles of the world as a whole. I just used the books as example of books that were far more brutal (in many different ways ) than a FR book, but where it had a clear literary function.
Now, I don't really need sex and violence at all, they could write FR political thrillers and explorer stories for all I care, but if a story is to have violence I prefer that the violence has a sense of realism in its effect, more than in its description. To say it simple, violence and tragedy do not bother me, but heavy action books bore me.
This is of course a purely subjective stand, and there are numerous people who disagree with me on this and would hate for the Realms novels to go in such a direction. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 01:03:40
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Very interesting discussions... My views on these topics were recently challenged in a Grad course I had last fall... We had to watch The People vs. Larry Flint. In this movie there is a powerful (in my opinion) scene where Flint intermixes images of murder, war and accidents from the news with nude scenes. He then asks what is more graphic or disturbing, This scene really got me to thinking about the topic. We also had to read a book by Marjorie Heins called SEX, SIN, and BLASPHEMY. This book discusses America's censorship wars and demonstrates how ridiculous many of these censorship laws are.
As far as too much violence in FR books, I have not noticed anything out of the ordinary from other fantasy novels. Of course I love fight and combat scenes... Of course some are pointless or drawn out a little too long, but on the whole FR books are fine. WotSQ bothered me just because they are drow and do evil things, I love heroic fantasy, and reading a book that is based on the "evil" perspective is not what i enjoy. I did read the entire series however, and hated how it ended |
ShadowJack |
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Is the violence too much?
