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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 18:50:41
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Sorry if there's some other discussion covering this that I missed, but I've just been thinking about people in the Realms who are the topic title. Off the top of my head...
-Torm (the knight of Myth Drannor)
-Random people named Helm (under Chondathan names in the Campaign Setting)
-Seluneshar (mentioned in, I think, an Ed Greenwood Q&A)
-Tempus Blackthorne (Banite in the Avatar Trilogy)
Any others you can come up with?
I was also wondering about unintentional namesakes of the recently ascended gods. Ariel/Midnight is pretty much moot, but there could be teenagers or older named Cyric in completely good faith - and even younger Kelemvors.
Right now I'm mulling over the possibility of a Kelemvor of Cyric (often going by Kel so as not to trip those pesky divine senses), or a Cyric of Kelemvor (going by let's say Rick for the same reason), or a Cyric of Cyric, or a Kelemvor of Kelemvor, and that's not considering all the combinations to be had from the other gods...
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 20:36:37
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To tell you the truth, given that Cyric and Kelemvor were both recently mortals, its likely that both names are still in fairly common useage, though I don't know what language either one would come from. That being the case, you could likely find serveral Kelemvors and Cyrics still wandering about the Realms.
I agree that a lot of Kelemvors would likely go with Kel, though I'm not sure if Rick would be the shortened form of Cyric, I would lean toward Cy.
I also imagine that while a lot of parents or their children wouldn't have a lot of problem with the Kelemvor being their namesake, given Cyric's reputation, you may not have a great many people keeping that name, and they might either go with Cy or change their name altogether depending on how they felt about Cyric.
For example, Torm, Helm, and Tempus are all names that someone might be named in honor of, and in hopes of instilling the traits of, the given god whom the name was taken from. So someone might name a child they want to grow up brave and loyal to be named Torm (and obviously somewhat ironic in Torm's case in the KOMD), someone born to a watchman or soldier might be named Helm or Tempus.
Unless you wanted you child to be a liar, a murderer, or insane, I'd image Cyric would never really catch on much (haven't seen many mortals named Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, etc., though I could see other "evil" gods whose portfolios are specifically "evil", such as Auril, Umberlee, etc.).
Now that you bring this up though, I wonder if this is more of a Chondathan tradition to name children after gods, or if there are several cultures that do this, or if its even more specific and only certain nationalities are likely to do this. |
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 21:29:09
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| You know, in real life, kids get named after famous people all the time. I knew a Leif Ericksson once. Oooh, go me! So, is it really startling that characters get named after gods? (Besides the complete confusion as to why the Knight, Torm, can't blast enemies with godly might like his name would suggest?) |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 22:38:29
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Ed has discussed people naming their offspring after the deities. BTW, Kelemvor would still be able to hear about what the offspring named Kel is doing, since the child has part of Kelemvor's name.
Check Ed's replies, its in there somewhere. :) Use the Table of Contents/Index, which is linked in my sig. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 23:03:55
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Ed's reply is quite a good one, when I asked him about divine beings gaining in power from someone invoking their name (whilst speaking of the person, not the god).
Kelemvor would hear about what the offspring called Kelemvor was up to, but at the same time it would be only a very minor part that listened to it, and likely the deity would ignore it altogether |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 00:44:36
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Woe to all the kids in the Realms named The Red Knight! 
Or how about kids named after the Baneson? "Hi, my name is Iyachtu!" "Gesundheit!*"
*(The Realms equivalent of "Gesundheit", obviously. ) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Jan 2007 00:45:02 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 01:28:27
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| You know I recently read the Star Wars novel Darth Bane by Drew Karpshyn and he takes the name Bane because his abusive father kept calling him the "The Bane of his existence". made me wonder if the God Bane had a similar story and had a real unused name before he became a deity |
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 01:50:16
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Given Bane's "mortal" origins, it's definitely an intriguing possibility.
On the other hand, Bane... or possibly a world-specific derivative, could've been a common name on the world from which Bane came from. After all, we do have plenty of examples of gods, in the Realms, who have retained their mortal names upon ascending to godhood -- Kelemvor and Cyric being the more obvious examples, and Velsharoon being another.
The ascension details, in F&A, surrounding Bane's rise as a god also seems to suggest that Bane was his name prior to becoming a god. Or, perhaps, this was merely the name Bane adopted upon arriving in the Realms... an indication, possibly, of seeing himself as the "ultimate tyrant" and "bane of all that is lawfully just."
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Edited by - The Sage on 02 Jan 2007 01:52:08 |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 03:52:23
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Thanks, all! quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I agree that a lot of Kelemvors would likely go with Kel, though I'm not sure if Rick would be the shortened form of Cyric, I would lean toward Cy.
Apparently it's pronounced "seer-ick," so Rick sounds more likely phonetically if not in "print." Or possibly Cyr, come to think of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
BTW, Kelemvor would still be able to hear about what the offspring named Kel is doing, since the child has part of Kelemvor's name.
I'm not quite sure how you figure that. If the god was called Kel and the human was called Kelemvor, yes, I get how that'd work (see: Seluneshar), but if they could listen in on the individual components of their names then where would it end? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 03:54:41
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| You are correct, Cyr would sound more appropriate in that situation. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 04:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
I'm not quite sure how you figure that. If the god was called Kel and the human was called Kelemvor, yes, I get how that'd work (see: Seluneshar), but if they could listen in on the individual components of their names then where would it end?
Because they are deities and Kel is named after Kelemvor. It's no different then say Seluneshar is named after Selune and Shar. Or for another example, Tymoriana would be named after Tymora. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jan 2007 04:38:33 |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 05:15:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Because they are deities and Kel is named after Kelemvor. It's no different then say Seluneshar is named after Selune and Shar. Or for another example, Tymoriana would be named after Tymora.
Hello-
I'm not sure I follow this. The following are some situations - I would like to understand how this would work in each case:
1) If a Human was named after Kelemvor (given the name Kelemvor) that the God Kelemvor would be able to hear the Human's name (Kelemvor) when spoken.
2) If a Human was named after Kelemvor (given the name Kelemvor) that the God Kelemvor would be able to hear the shortened nickname of the human, Kel when spoken.
3) If a Human was named after Kelemvor (given the name Kel) that the God Kelemvor would be able to hear the Human's name, Kel when spoken.
4) If a Human was named Kel - with no direct intention of naming him after the God Kelemvor, would the God Kelemvor hear the Human's name when spoken.
5) If a Human was named Kelfordson, but was often called Kel for short, would the God Kelemvor hear hear the shortened version of Kelfordson's name when spoken.
6) If the shortened version does in fact flag for the Gods - would Sharess have always heard every prayer mean for Shar due to the shortened version of the name?
7) Would the few deities whose names are components of longer, regular words keep having their sense flare up when these other words are uttered, as im Set and the word setting.
8) And while we are at it - is it the impication of the name spoken that counts, or is it merely the utterance of the name? If it is the utterance - would the god Hoar keep hearing his name uttered by angry men across the Realms as well as in proximity to bordellos across the Realms as well.
I guess I'm just curious as to how pervasive this ability is thought to be.
Personally - to throw my two cents in - I beleive that of all the numbered entries listed above - only the first would likely trigger the God's sense. I suppose there must be some sort of 'intent' filter for their actual name - because IIRC there have been instances of people using 'other' names for gods so as to not attract their attention. My reasoning is I guess - is that if the God's can't sense when other names for them are bing used - they probably also would not be aware of the non-intended uses I list above. This is - of course - my own take.
On a smaller, related note - what about Dead Gods? Assumedly - if they are dead - they dont hear their name - but what about gods that were killed because their essence was subsumed by another deity? Would the subsuming deity be 'aware' of the utterance of the subsumed deity's name? Does Shar hear Ibrandul's name when invoked - even though she is listed as having killed him as opposed to having subsumed him.
Truly - thought-provoking questions!
Dhomal |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 05:30:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
On a smaller, related note - what about Dead Gods? Assumedly - if they are dead - they dont hear their name...
Well, remember what Ed said.
There's always prayers and idle worship and other miscellaneous divine utterings around the Realms for almost every divine being, those rumored-to-be-divine beings, half-forgotten and misremembered godlings... and even those deities who linger on as demigods or divine sparks.
Unless one god has been completely destroyed by another god... there's always a possibility that some portion of that god exists somewhere, some divine remnant, that stirs or pulses with power each and every time it "hears" a prayer or its name is uttered.
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 05:34:57
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Good thought Dhomal. I have always had the understanding of a person uttering a gods name being heard, not portions or variations on a god's name. As one of your examples, I would believe Kelemvor would hear a mother calling for her little kid, who's name is also Kelemvor, but the god being able to decipher whether or not HIS/HER name was being spoken or referred too.
My 2 coppers worth  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 05:35:45
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Based on Ed'd reply, I'd say all of the above. Also, we don't know if people use the word whore in FR. :) Ed's given us many different terms for sexual people and so far whore really hasn't been on said lists.
Ed even used the word utterances of their names and he said names that are named after them. Kel is technically named after Kelemvor. So Shar and Sharess would also hear both prayers the same way Selune and Shar would hear the prayers of Seluneshar. As Ed said, deities can also block access to other deities from hearing the names and deities also tone it out because the constant barrage would drive you nuts.
I suppose that someone should ask Ed for clarification but based on what he said in 2005, I'm going to disagree with everyone that says Kelemvor can't hear someone that is named Kel, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jan 2007 05:45:20 |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 05:48:57
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Hello-
Kuje - would you also include option #5 - where Kel is a shortened version of another name entirely?
And certainly - perhaps 'whore' is not a word used in the Realms - but the same issue lies with Bane and Mask, and I dont think we need to worry about the use/lack of use of those two words in the Relams. (*My original post was made with a copy of 2Ed Powers & Pantheons, so my reference was made by flipping through that.*)
As far as asking for clairification - not a bad idea at all. However - maybe tomorrow - as I'm a bit late for bed. :)
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 06:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-
Kuje - would you also include option #5 - where Kel is a shortened version of another name entirely?
Well, I said all of the above, so I guess that would be a yes.
And you know, Ed's probably going so say something like, "Mortals don't know much about matters divine, so there's no set answer to this."  |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jan 2007 06:13:38 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 06:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As Ed said, deities can also block access to other deities from hearing the names and deities also tone it out because the constant barrage would drive you nuts.
Consider also, as Ed has said, that some deities may simply "miss" hearing one prayer or scant utterance of a deity's name. This is, simply, because they either have little care for that one particular utterance, or have found it difficult to focus in on that one particular voice amid the hundreds and/or thousands of utterances a second that bombard the god's mind.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 06:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As Ed said, deities can also block access to other deities from hearing the names and deities also tone it out because the constant barrage would drive you nuts.
Consider also, as Ed has said, that some deities may simply "miss" hearing one prayer or scant utterance of a deity's name. This is, simply, because they either have little care for that one particular utterance, or have found it difficult to focus in on that one particular voice amid the hundreds and/or thousands of utterances a second that bombard the god's mind.
Yup yup. True enough. To me, if you are deity, it's not a stretch that you would be able to hear names that are related to your name. Hells, the Chosen of Mystra manage to hear their names being spoken, so it's really not that far fetched that deities have expanded powers. They are deities after all! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 06:51:40
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Indeed.
I'm inclined to also believe, as Ed has said in the past, that some gods just "selectively" choose which divine utterance or prayer they wish to act upon simply because one specific utterance or prayer may potentially provide them with more power or interest from mortals, than some others.
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Edited by - The Sage on 03 Jan 2007 06:53:32 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 07:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed.
I'm inclined to also believe, as Ed has said in the past, that some gods just "selectively" choose which divine utterance or prayer they wish to act upon simply because one specific utterance or prayer may potentially provide them with more power or interest from mortals, than some others.
Makes sense to me and I agree.
Also, with the amount of clerics and lay worshippers sending you prayers and you giving spells, in the case of your divine casters, I really don't see why it's so hard for deities to hear names that are based on their names.
But like I said, if Ed clarifies and says otherwise, then so be it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 12:28:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed.
I'm inclined to also believe, as Ed has said in the past, that some gods just "selectively" choose which divine utterance or prayer they wish to act upon simply because one specific utterance or prayer may potentially provide them with more power or interest from mortals, than some others.
Particularly where Finder explains to his cleric (forget his name) in Finders Bane the reason for clerics having to intone the prayer correctly. Gods are very busy people, with lots of voices to hear, and if a prayer is done correctly the god can offer his power to fuel that spell without taking up too much concentration.
Consequently people simply uttering even a part of their name would require some concentration on the gods part, so unless it's important it's likely to be ignored |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 13:10:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Consequently people simply uttering even a part of their name would require some concentration on the gods part, so unless it's important it's likely to be ignored
Indeed.
And considering that a god's mind is rather a vast aspect in and of itself... it wouldn't be too much for one to also assume that gods do in fact devote portions of their conscious minds to such needs. Whether they're parts of their minds dedicated to "listening" for errant prayers or whispered utterings... these are usually things gods can't always be finicky about, especially if they've recently experienced a decrease in status, or their worshipper base has shrunk significantly. At this point, a god is going to need to be alert for any slight, brief, or partially-phrased utterance that can guarantee them either acknowledgement or worship from mortals.
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 13:21:21
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Well, this thread has passed beyond the scope of the original question, but this is the first time that I've read it, and I'll add my two cents.
I seem to recall... somewhere... that Torm and Helm are rather common names in the Realms. The Equivilent of John or Chris.
Further, I will call to attention that naming after religious figures is quite common in our own world as well.
-Mary as a name for a female across all of Western Civilization.
-Ditto for Peter.
-Jesus is exceedingly common in Central and South America.
-I know many people that chose all of their children's names from the Bible.
-Also, I have a Norwegian great-uncle named Thor. |
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Edited by - WalkerNinja on 03 Jan 2007 13:21:48 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 15:59:45
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After thinking about this a bit more, I'm also going to say that there are probably different spellings for the deities' names in the different languages. Plus, adding in accents and you got a nice mix of different ways to say, spell, and name someone after a deity. Hearing all these different languages, spellings, and accents has to be very interesting.
Even in our world, the deities have many different spellings. For example, the greeks tend to spell their deities with K's instead of with C's. Hekate instead of Hecate, etc.
And Walker is right, a lot of people name their children after deities but a lot of people use the names of the saints more then the names from the old pantheons. Of course, people over seas still use the names from the old pantheons or names based on those deities. Helm and Torm, in FR, since Ed has said so, are popular choices for mortals to name their children after.
Also, you are going to have to dig through a lot of material to find NPC's that are named after the gods because TSR, and again, Ed has mentioned this in the past, didn't like to reuse names because they felt it would "confuse people." So, every NPC, usually, had a different name from any other named being and there are hardly any repeated named. WOTC seems to have removed this policy a bit but even now, it's hard to find NPC's that share the same name. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jan 2007 16:20:31 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 17:36:26
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
-Also, I have a Norwegian great-uncle named Thor.
That's awesome |
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 20:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
-Also, I have a Norwegian great-uncle named Thor.
That's awesome
"Oi! Uncle Thor! This guy is picking on me...Will you please throw your hammer at him? *WHACK* *lightning strikes* Thanks, Uncle, you're the coolest!" |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Aglaranna
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
-Also, I have a Norwegian great-uncle named Thor.
That's awesome
"Oi! Uncle Thor! This guy is picking on me...Will you please throw your hammer at him? *WHACK* *lightning strikes* Thanks, Uncle, you're the coolest!"
I have a nephew named Merlin. How's that? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 22:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aglaranna
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
-Also, I have a Norwegian great-uncle named Thor.
That's awesome
"Oi! Uncle Thor! This guy is picking on me...Will you please throw your hammer at him? *WHACK* *lightning strikes* Thanks, Uncle, you're the coolest!"
I have a nephew named Merlin. How's that?
Yes, but...BZZT! We're off topic. *shiftey eyes* Are they coming for us? JUST BECAUSE I'M PARANOID DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE NOT OUT TO GET ME! |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 00:27:12
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No doubt people get named after deities in the FR, but as a outsider looking in, it's hard for me to see a god's name and *not* immediately think of whatever deity that is, and so I don't know if I'd ever name any of my own characters after a deity.
For the same reason I wouldn't name any of my own characters after another, well-known character (Elminster, Laeral, Azoun). I just can't separate these names from their famous, attached personages, and I don't like the idea of having a unique character all my own, but always being reminded of another character just because of the name. "Drizzt" might well be the Underdark version of "John"...but did anyone just read that name without thinking of a certain dark elf ranger of Icewind Dale?
Common to Realms folk just doesn't equal common to the reader. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Jan 2007 00:28:11 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 14:20:13
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| I had the dubious distinction of having a Paladin of Torm named Bhaal Kreiger from Zhentil Keep. In our Pre-Time of Troubles campaign, it was slowly built up that Bhaal had a very strong interest in the character for some reason. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Named after gods
