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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 15:47:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
He first appeared in Tolkien's books under a different name
*sigh* No, he didn't. Just because he bears a resemblance to Gandalf, it does not mean that he is Gandalf. Let's give Ed a little more credit than that, shall we? 
Indeed. As Ed has told us:-
"He owes a little bit to the Old Storyteller of Thornton W. Burgess, a little bit to Merlin, a little bit to Gandalf, a trifle to Fagin, a trifle to the literary character Glencannon, a little bit more to the real-life (and long since sadly deceased) English comedian Michael Flanders, and so on."
and:-
"He's more Merlin than he is Gandalf or Belgarath—in fact, if you look at Nicol Williamson's portrayal of Merlin in the movie Excalibur, remove the skullcap, and change the red hair to dark brown, the result will be pretty close to Elminster's whimsical behaviour and general looks; Old El of course predates the movie, too."
I always picture Elminster as above with a little Frankie Howard in for flavor
Complete with " Titter Ye Not "
But seriously isn't he a prince of an old realm?
Delz
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36867 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 16:14:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
But seriously isn't he a prince of an old realm?
Delz
The long-since fallen realm Athalanter, yes. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 23:57:55
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MerrikCale,
Fizban was certainly in print before the Realms became a TSR product line - - but not (unless I'm misremembering) before Elminster had appeared in Ed Greenwood-written Dragon Magazine articles (or "The Dragon" as it was then).
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 29 Dec 2006 23:58:56 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 00:33:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
But seriously isn't he a prince of an old realm?
Delz
The long-since fallen realm Athalanter, yes.
And for reference purposes... Athalantar was covered in both DRAGON #228, and LEoF, as was mentioned earlier.
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 02:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
MerrikCale,
Fizban was certainly in print before the Realms became a TSR product line - - but not (unless I'm misremembering) before Elminster had appeared in Ed Greenwood-written Dragon Magazine articles (or "The Dragon" as it was then).
love,
THO
I was just curious since the two are so obviously similiar in design |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 03:02:06
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Ah. Well, Elminster predates D&D (yes, the game) by at least seven years. He first appeared (I think; please note that I haven't checked with Ed; Elminster may even be a year older than the year the story was published) in "One Comes, Unheralded, to Zirta," a short story Ed wrote in 1967.
That story was given away in chapbook form at a GenCon, and later reprinted in THE BEST OF THE REALMS VOLUME 2: THE STORIES OF ED GREENWOOD paperback collection (Volume 3, which will feature the short stories of Elaine Cunningham, should be out soon; Volume 1 was a "readers' votes" best-of selection from the various "Realms of" anthologies TSR/WotC printed over the years).
So Elminster predates Dragonlance (and, therefore, Fizban) by at least a decade. As for similar design; as I said earlier, they're the same archetype.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 30 Dec 2006 03:04:11 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 03:35:36
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Visually, yeah, the wizard in the pointy hat with the long white beard is pretty standard for Arthurian/Tolkien/General Fantasy old wizards. But as our lovely THO has pointed out, the robes, the hat, and the beard (and don't forget the pipe), are pretty standard "archetypical" garb for the old wise wizard.
Fizban was a being that appeared to be a befuddled old wizard, imparted some good advice in the middle of a lot of non sense and non-sequiter comments, and never directly saved the day, because as we know he was actually a god masquerading as a wizard so that he could "nudge" the heroes in the right direction without getting directly involved. So he looked like a typical wizard, but really wasn't. In that regard, you could say he was a typical wizard in some aspects coupled with stories about Zeus and Apollo, or Odin travelling in the guise of mortals to test or advise humans that didn't know any better (and I'm sure I'm missing a few thousand other examples from various cultures).
For that matter, Tolkien's Gandalf looked like a typical "old wizard" in the Hobbit, and for the most part in the LOTR, but when you know the backstory of the books, he was also a powerful being masquerading as a mortal, or at least taking on the semblance of one, to guide mortals, rather than getting directly involved.
Elminster strikes me as a bit more of a smart aleck than Gandalf, and a bit less reverent than Fizban. He has lived a long time, dabbled in nearly everything (including professions), spent a good amount of time as a woman, been in suspended animation, insane, and housed varying amounts of his goddesses raw power at various time. He has fallen in love with his goddess, known her in the biblical sense, seen her die, and seen a mortal take her place. If you could sum up Elminster beyond the first step (i.e. old sagely wizard advisor), it would be "he's been on one wild ride."
I understand the "base" idea of Elminster may not seem that original, but if you look at a lot of Realms characters just on their face you don't see the depth that they have. Azoun could look like a lot of "chivalrous" kings without some context, and even Alias, if you take her out of the fantasy context, is a genetically engineered super soldier/assasin, if you take her out of the fantasy context she is presented in.
And I have always liked the comment that Ed has made that he was influenced by Merlin as portrayed in the movie Excalibur. I absolutely love that particular performance, and I try to bring it to mind whenever I read Elminster tossing out "wisdom." |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 04:14:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ah. Well, Elminster predates D&D (yes, the game) by at least seven years. He first appeared (I think; please note that I haven't checked with Ed; Elminster may even be a year older than the year the story was published) in "One Comes, Unheralded, to Zirta," a short story Ed wrote in 1967.
That story was given away in chapbook form at a GenCon, and later reprinted in THE BEST OF THE REALMS VOLUME 2: THE STORIES OF ED GREENWOOD paperback collection (Volume 3, which will feature the short stories of Elaine Cunningham, should be out soon; Volume 1 was a "readers' votes" best-of selection from the various "Realms of" anthologies TSR/WotC printed over the years).
So Elminster predates Dragonlance (and, therefore, Fizban) by at least a decade. As for similar design; as I said earlier, they're the same archetype.
love,
THO
I know that good old El predates Fizban. But as you've discussed, El's visual appearance was a TSR thing. If memory serves, Fizban predates El's TSR visual appearance and therefore, perhaps influenced in a way by Fizban, visually speaking.
I know I may start an avalanche here KnightErrantJR, but I have never found much depth at all to Azoun, Alias, and certainly the Seven Sisters character wise |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 04:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
As for the "look" of Elminster (Early Version): that was entirely TSR's doing, because they WANTED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE GANDALF to "cash in" on the then-current LORD OF THE RINGS popularity.
What did Elminster look like originally when he first appeared to the Knights in Ed's game? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 04:43:18
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
I know that good old El predates Fizban. But as you've discussed, El's visual appearance was a TSR thing. If memory serves, Fizban predates El's TSR visual appearance and therefore, perhaps influenced in a way by Fizban, visually speaking.
I know I may start an avalanche here KnightErrantJR, but I have never found much depth at all to Azoun, Alias, and certainly the Seven Sisters character wise
Eh, to each their own. I was mainly pointing out that there was more to the character than the initial "archetype." |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 13:55:39
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Eh, to each their own. I was mainly pointing out that there was more to the character than the initial "archetype."
To each his own. I was merely pointing out that I don't partiularly agree with you about those examples. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 15:55:31
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Hmm. I can certainly understand how a scribe might not LIKE Azoun or the Seven, but it frankly puzzles me deeply if a scribe can have read The Seven Sisters sourcebook, Silverfall, the Cormyr Saga books, Shandril's Saga ditto, Ed's Spin A Yarns on the Wizards website, and his delightful "Silverfall Interview" fiction piece on that same website, and conclude these characters don't have depth.
I agree that they've never received the "inside their heads" solo novels some readers might want, but that doesn't make them lacking in depth. Far from it.
I also don't follow your specific logic, MerrikCale, that because Fizban's appearance in TSR art predates Elminster's (not true, by the way), that it somehow "influenced" the character of Elminster. Lady THO explained the 'whys' of that, you said you agreed with her, and then you said you couldn't help thinking that Old El's appearance was somehow visually influenced. Are these two views not contradictory? |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 17:23:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Stars
Hmm. I can certainly understand how a scribe might not LIKE Azoun or the Seven, but it frankly puzzles me deeply if a scribe can have read The Seven Sisters sourcebook, Silverfall, the Cormyr Saga books, Shandril's Saga ditto, Ed's Spin A Yarns on the Wizards website, and his delightful "Silverfall Interview" fiction piece on that same website, and conclude these characters don't have depth.
I agree that they've never received the "inside their heads" solo novels some readers might want, but that doesn't make them lacking in depth. Far from it.
I also don't follow your specific logic, MerrikCale, that because Fizban's appearance in TSR art predates Elminster's (not true, by the way), that it somehow "influenced" the character of Elminster. Lady THO explained the 'whys' of that, you said you agreed with her, and then you said you couldn't help thinking that Old El's appearance was somehow visually influenced. Are these two views not contradictory?
I actually wasn't trying to make point that Fizban influenced El in anything other than the appearance that TSR gave him. I was wondering what came first TSR's design of El or Fizban. I thought it was Fizban.I understand El had been around longer than Fizban from a creative aspect. I do not believe that Fizban influenced El from a substantive point sorry I didn't make that clear.
I have read all the pieces you have referred to although some in the distant past and frankly I see the those characters as "one trick ponies" and very boring. The seven sisters are the for all intents and purposes the same character with very little emotional difference or realism. I have many problems with Mr. Greenwood's fiction. I don't like his style which is of course personal taste. I also don't like such heavy use of magic and "super powered" individuals again personal taste. But most of all, I don't think his characters ever grow in any aspect whatsoever. El, the seven sisters, etc are the same with no personal growth. I like characters who seem real to meand they judt don't. RA Salvatore's on the other hand grow and change. They're real.
Just so you don't think I am anti-Ed, I do think the man is brillant. I believe he has created one of the best if not the best "shared" world ever. He's a terrific game designer and author. I just think his fiction is dreadful. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
Edited by - MerrikCale on 30 Dec 2006 17:25:09 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 17:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
But most of all, I don't think his characters ever grow in any aspect whatsoever. El, the seven sisters, etc are the same with no personal growth. I like characters who seem real to meand they judt don't. RA Salvatore's on the other hand grow and change. They're real.
Just so you don't think I am anti-Ed, I do think the man is brillant. I believe he has created one of the best if not the best "shared" world ever. He's a terrific game designer and author. I just think his fiction is dreadful.
 Having read both every Ed and Bob books I really can't understand how you can achieve such a conclusion. Of course the comparison between immortals like El / Seven Sisters and the Companions of the Halls is a very difficut one. When talking about the Chosens I often compare them to Anne Rice's elder vampires.
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 19:35:15
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While I know this discussion sprung out of discussion Elminster's origins, that original question had to do with his "in character" origin, and less about his origin as a character in Forgotten Realms stories.
Not only are we drifting off a bit in discussing Elminster's "literal" origins, but comparing characters of various authors in the Realms is out of the scope of this thread, and to a degree, discussion the merits and depths of characters related to Elminster are as well.
All of that having been said, lets get back on topic, that being the actual history of the character Elminster. Thanks all. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 21:48:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Having read both every Ed and Bob books I really can't understand how you can achieve such a conclusion.
Different strokes for different folks. People react to fiction differently.
As for how Elminster originally looked, I'm curious about that myself, although I DO recall that in many Elminster stories, he is wearing a plain, dirty robe with food stains on it.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 02:16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Having read both every Ed and Bob books I really can't understand how you can achieve such a conclusion.
Thats easy Bob's a much better writer. 
But anyway, this is the way I sort of see it. I see the two almost like the old DC and Marvel comics (long time ago not now). DC's heroes were near godlike and boring. Marvel's heroes seemed like people. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 02:29:48
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Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
However, I side with Skeptic. If you honestly can't see real character development in the list of Ed's fiction Sage of Stars posted, and you hold the opinion that Bob's a better writer in this regard, that makes me doubt the worth of your opinion.
Which of course is merely MY opinion. 
However, I'm not trying to be rude or nasty here. I don't expect every reader to like every writer, and I don't think there's any point in scribes going on hashing this out; rarely do we seem to succeed in changing each other's minds.
So to get back to the original topic . . .
Ed gave a seminar at GenCon (in 1988 or 89) about how key Realms characters developed, and actually gave out a one-page "handout." I'm going to go and look through my boxes of old gaming stuff and see if I can find it. If I do, expect a post from me to THO to appear in the Questions for Ed thread in the Chamber of Sages, because I'm certainly not going to post it here without Ed's express permission.
Perhaps Lady THO can nudge Ed to tell us about El's original physical description, if she hasn't stopped reading this thread already. She tends to state her case and then just step back from the fray when posters get rude. Something we might all want to bear in mind, considering none of the writers and designers have to come around here to get abuse.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 02:32:55
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Having read both every Ed and Bob books I really can't understand how you can achieve such a conclusion.
Thats easy Bob's a much better writer.
I'm assuming this is your own personal opinion?
I don't think it shouldn't be stated as fact.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 02:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Having read both every Ed and Bob books I really can't understand how you can achieve such a conclusion.
Thats easy Bob's a much better writer.
I'm assuming this is your own personal opinion?
I don't think it shouldn't be stated as fact.
Its my opinion obviously. Thats why I put that little smiley face to show I was just "goofin'" |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 03:14:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
Thats easy Bob's a much better writer.
I'm assuming this is your own personal opinion?
I don't think it shouldn't be stated as fact.
Nice euphemism Sage, ok enough for me on this thread !
BTW, before I'm flaged as a "Ed fanboy", I hated "City of Splendors" and I've read all the 16 Drizzt books. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 31 Dec 2006 03:16:47 |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 16:36:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Nice euphemism Sage, ok enough for me on this thread !
BTW, before I'm flaged as a "Ed fanboy", I hated "City of Splendors" and I've read all the 16 Drizzt books.
see City of Splendors was one of the few I liked |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 19:00:02
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We still don't seem to be getting back on the actual topic of Elminster's Origins, as laid out earlier in the thread. While I can appreciate that people have differing opinions on various authors, such discussions are far from the original intent of the thread, and we don't seem to be able to find out way back to this topic.
I'm going to go ahead and close this, nearly all of posts since my comment have still revolved around critiquing authors and comparing differnt author's characters, which is clearly not what this thread was originally intended for. Keep in mind, a few minor off topic coments, especially when tied to something related to the originally topic a least from a thematic point of view, tend not to be a problem. But the wholesale shifting off topic to a detailed discussion of something not covered by the original intent of the thread is a whole other thing.
And with that, I'm closing this. |
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Elminster's origins
Topic Locked
