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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
 Posted - 20 May 2003 : 15:13:20
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well, what a disorder here!
(taking a glass of martini)
I'd like to know how many evil famous characters went to candlekeep and their names. I mean that everyone knows that candlekeep is open to everybody since u can give a new book but what about evil guys with malevolent ideas...? |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 17:13:42
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Do you mean the D&D candlekeep, or the Internet Site?
For the first one i can answer, Oghma thinks that EVERYONE can access knowledge, just give knowledge in return. |
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Tombo
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 19:38:51
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Good topic. Alignment is always something people like to debate. I think it gets confusing because often, Lawful is confused with Good and Chaotic is confused with Evil. They way I keep it straight in my head is that Evil is synonymous with selfishness, Good is the opposite of selfishness, Lawful refers to the compliance with a society's commonly accepted rules (regardless of how strange they might be!), and Chaotic is the rejection of society's commonly accepted rules (regardless of how strange they might be!). Neutral is obviously in between Good and Evil - meaning one chooses to neither go out of his/her way to help another nor do they go out of their way for selfish reasons. I could go on but have no time...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 19:52:28
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| Actually, Tombo, you've hit upon the very heart of the matter, and so need not say more. I believe what you've written is exactly as the Wizards-on-the-Coast envisioned it (or rather, their predecessors). |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 20:12:35
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| But you forgot one thing... to answer the question |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 20:28:11
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| Ah, like me on a multi-part essay question. I get so caught up in answering one part I forget the rest . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Tombo
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 14:21:26
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Who didn't answer the question? Looking back, Draith technically didn't ask a question. He was looking for suggestions on how to play an evil character. I think we beat it to death actually (would that be evil? he he).  |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 16:23:06
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I dont however agree with that. I don't see how being evil is being selfish. I know im going to get yelled at for this one. But. Here Im going to post something that shows what Im saying.
For an example of what I am saying; In the Anime Trigun. One of the coolest bad guys that I have ever seen .... pure evil to boot... whith massive powers, named Lagoto Could have killed a whole town with more or less mind control. A whole town. At first you think that he is the main bad guy because he leads a small group of freakish out law assassins called the Gung Ho Gang. Each gang member has some freakish power, but they do all have some sort of gun, anyway thats not the point. You find out that Vash's, the hero, brother Knives is the real ring leader of the bad guys. All Lagoto is doing is serving Knives biddings.... For no reason but to serve Knives. I don't see that as very selfish. Lagoto is reallllly evil ... The next thing that happens is Lagoto puts Vash into a situation where HE HAS to kill Lagoto in cold blood to save his two friends, which Vash himself made a promise to someone he loved, who died a long time ago, that he would never kill again.... How could putting your own head to someones gun and forcing them to shoot you in the noodle be selfish?
I felt that that was a good example for that topic. In the sence that Lagoto would have been a very good D&D char. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
Edited by - Cult_Leader on 21 May 2003 16:27:42 |
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Tombo
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 18:06:58
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Cult Leader,
No disrespect intended but your argument is based on the assumption that this cartoon guy is evil. You keep saying that he is evil but offer no specific examples. What is his motivation for serving the "knives"? I would argue that he is not truly evil if he is blindly serving some group for no purpose. Besides, even if you had a valid example where Lagoto did something evil it is still not a valid argument since this is a character that some writer created. The writer can choose to have that character do anything he/she wants. They could have Lagoto be evil in one episode and good in the next (especially if it helped ratings). I think that drawing from reality to define this concept is critical. Personally speaking, the more I thought about real-life “evil” the more I concluded that the common motivation was selfishness. The dictionary offers several definitions of evil, including: anger, spite, morally wrong, causing injury/pain. However, I don’t think that the dictionary definition is the “end-all” source for the context of this discussion since we are trying to grasp more than just the definition of evil. I believe we are trying to figure out what the common motivation for evil is. Right? So, any ideas? |
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Malice
Seeker
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 18:39:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Tombo
I believe we are trying to figure out what the common motivation for evil is. Right? So, any ideas?
I think that there is no reall such thing as evil in the world... I think that some people just go for what they want, and how they go about doing so conflicts with the morals of those around them. |
"Khaless? Ha. Vel'bol zhah nindol 'khaless' dos telanth? d'usstan zhaun ol naut." |
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Tombo
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 19:34:17
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| Malice, What you are describing is Chaos not evil (see my comments above). |
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Malice
Seeker
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 19:56:09
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::looks at previous post:: ah, yes. well. I knew that. ...really. |
"Khaless? Ha. Vel'bol zhah nindol 'khaless' dos telanth? d'usstan zhaun ol naut." |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 22:08:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Tombo
Cult Leader,
No disrespect intended but your argument is based on the assumption that this cartoon guy is evil. You keep saying that he is evil but offer no specific examples. What is his motivation for serving the "knives"? I would argue that he is not truly evil if he is blindly serving some group for no purpose. Besides, even if you had a valid example where Lagoto did something evil it is still not a valid argument since this is a character that some writer created. The writer can choose to have that character do anything he/she wants. They could have Lagoto be evil in one episode and good in the next (especially if it helped ratings). I think that drawing from reality to define this concept is critical. Personally speaking, the more I thought about real-life “evil” the more I concluded that the common motivation was selfishness. The dictionary offers several definitions of evil, including: anger, spite, morally wrong, causing injury/pain. However, I don’t think that the dictionary definition is the “end-all” source for the context of this discussion since we are trying to grasp more than just the definition of evil. I believe we are trying to figure out what the common motivation for evil is. Right? So, any ideas?
Motivation that I forgot. Well that is really a simple thing to answer. Lagoto's main reason for even being himself is the total destruction/ genocide of all humanity. That was just something he wanted to do. However he never did it. Odd that huh. I would agree with you on most parts. However it would be the same thing as stating that, all chars would be lead around by their noses by their players just the same as any char from a show or book. This was an example of one "being" in essence. If you want to get into this deeply you could just state that; byt the actions of Lagoto and what he wanted as his own goal ( which he however never got to go after) was much alike to oh lets ... say Hitler. Why? They both wanted Genocide. Hitler wanted to off all who were not Whites/ Pures etc etc, and Lagoto wanted to off everyone who was nott he same "type" of human as Vash, Knives, and himself. Which the show never went into this part that much but they were some form of cyborg like people. In any case, This was an example that showed that chars do not have to be selfish if they are evil.
In real life one dose not also have to be in any of the states, or have any charateristics (probably spelled that wrong) that are actually listed withing the dictionary listings for evil. I would like to place this statement under the fact that the Iceman was a real person. Who in no case ... could get mad, be angary ... or have many of the other feelings we commonly would place under evil. The Iceman many people know as a Mob Hitman. While it is true that most people would say "Oh how can you say he never felt any of those feelings" and other such. Mentally he didn't. He had no Concince. TO him it was just something that happened. Which is why he is known as one of THE best Mob Hitmen ever. No anger, No hate, Just doing a job. I still don't see were the essence of evil stems from anger and hate in that such case, which yes is not broad and there are so many other ways to look at this, however think about it. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
Edited by - Cult_Leader on 21 May 2003 22:21:21 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2003 : 00:35:29
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I honestly think it is truly impossible to assign D&D alignments to real life. D&D is a struggle between good and evil. The real world we live in is not a struggle vs. good and evil. The alignment system just won't work. What is the alignment of the CEO of ENRON? Is he evil? What about the good Enron did for charity and peoples enjoyment? (I am NOT supporting them just making a point.) This world is Not a fantasy realm or a comic book. IT is much more complicated than that unfortunately.
I have not watched the anime you quoted Cult. But I really did not see anything definitive that the character was evil. MAybe he is just the anti-hero type. I have really TRIED to get into Anime. I LOVE LODOSS WARS, STARBLAZERS, and ROBOTECH, and AKIRA but the others always just get too goofy. I tried to get into some scifi anime, but I guess it is my science background, that usually leaves me banging my head against the wall. They seem to botch it by putting REAL BAD humour in it. AH well I always watch anime with hope it will be as good as LODODD or STARBLAZERS but it always seems to miss the mark. If I had to watch another RANMA .5 I think I would shoot myself!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2003 : 02:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94
I honestly think it is truly impossible to assign D&D alignments to real life. D&D is a struggle between good and evil. The real world we live in is not a struggle vs. good and evil. The alignment system just won't work. What is the alignment of the CEO of ENRON? Is he evil? What about the good Enron did for charity and peoples enjoyment? (I am NOT supporting them just making a point.) This world is Not a fantasy realm or a comic book. IT is much more complicated than that unfortunately.
I have not watched the anime you quoted Cult. But I really did not see anything definitive that the character was evil. MAybe he is just the anti-hero type. I have really TRIED to get into Anime. I LOVE LODOSS WARS, STARBLAZERS, and ROBOTECH, and AKIRA but the others always just get too goofy. I tried to get into some scifi anime, but I guess it is my science background, that usually leaves me banging my head against the wall. They seem to botch it by putting REAL BAD humour in it. AH well I always watch anime with hope it will be as good as LODODD or STARBLAZERS but it always seems to miss the mark. If I had to watch another RANMA .5 I think I would shoot myself!!!
Lodos is a good one, and so is robo. However, Lodos is also not that good in a sence, if your into anime like I am. However, if you want a good Anime movie, One that is far far better then the old classic Aikira, try to find Ninja Scroll ... none of the other ninja Scrolls loike return or rezurection. Just the first one. Its only name is Ninja Scroll. Its one of, if not THE best Anime movie most people will and have ever seen. Another one that you might like is Vampire Hunter D and Vampire Hunter D: BLood Lust. Both are very good and kind of past/future mix.
Anyway yes! He is more or less anti-Hero. However the main fact still remains .. Lagoto wanted to do mass Genocide upon humanity... That dose not really seem anti-hero. Maybe he is a class of his own then eh?
And yet another anyway; Your right, it is hard to class good and evil in real life. Thats why my original post was upon RP basis not IRL. I have no clue why Tombo brought it to the IRL sence. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Tombo
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2003 : 14:45:58
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Cult,
I guess I wasn't very clear when I said that the definition of evil should come from real life. I am in NO WAY implying that the D&D alignment system can be applied to reality (ie. he is CE, she is LG etc.). What I was trying to point out was that relying upon a character that somebody else created to define this term "evil" is limited by the writer’s skill. So, when I say it should be based on reality, what I mean is not so much comparing to Hitler or Napolean or whatever but more psychology I suppose. I agree with Mournblade that this concept can not be directly applied to reality BUT the concept of the alignment system IS based on reality. So, from reality it must be explained.
You bring up a good point about genocide. Intuitively I agree that genocide is inherently evil. But why is it evil? Genocide is evil because it is a selfish action! And that’s my point. Why do I say it’s selfish? It’s selfish because selfishness is the opposite of being helpful towards others. The idea of genocide is to kill everyone that isn’t like yourself. Therefore, I stand by my contention that every evil action can be “boiled down” essentially to be a selfish desire.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2003 : 00:58:47
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You are Very Eloquent Tombo...
Huzzah!
Cult I would have actually added Vampire Hunter D to my list but I forgot. I also liked Princess Mononoke. The only thing that irritated me about Vampire Hunter was his hand. it wasn't that bad, but still thought they could of come up with something better.
I can see why most Anime fans do not like Lodoss wars. There is something Very different about it. Still Starblazers would have to go down as my all time favourite.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 23 May 2003 01:01:30 |
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Laurelessa
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2003 : 02:33:51
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::little happy squeak:: Anime! I love anime! Yay yay!  Akira! |
"Who are we to judge those who have not the will to judge themselves? Answer me that, and then I may join your cause." |
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Aeriden Raven
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 11:14:55
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I think one of the problems you will encounter with evil characters is that they might mess up the party structure (kill eachother for example  ). I played a CE warlock for two years and she had a really twisted mind. Sacrificing babies to her demonprince, burning down farms of innocent people, all to gain more power from her god. However, most of the other partymembers were evil as well (one LE drow fighter/mage, a NE druid and a necromancer who's alignment I still haven't figured out, because I think it was sort of shifting, is that even possible by the way?).
Anyway, the DM gave us a common goal, we all had the same tattoo in our neck and were sort of chosen by a goddess (a neutral one, home made ). Since we had a common purpose, the warlock did not backstab the rest of the party and since we were sort of forced to work together, we decided to make the best of it.
Also, I would like to add that chaotic evil does not mean chaotic stupid. A character who randomly kills everyone in sight, just for fun, will soon find her end. Although she might be evil, she know that acting it out all the time will not aid her goals, but just bring her trouble. However, poisoning a well and getting away with it, desacrating an altar in a good god's temple etc, was quite doable. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 11:37:23
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| It's quite possible for a character's alignment to shift. Sometimes even rapidly. I believe you've read Mournblade's acount of how he had ruled that one of his players' character went from Lawful Good Paladin to Caotic Evil Blackguard? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Aeriden Raven
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 12:49:50
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| No, I meant that her alignment was shifting back and forth. She would not be detected when a detect evil was cast and would not act really evil, but on the other hand she had no problem in helping my warlock setting fire to a farm and sacrificing the innocent people who lived there to my Demon prince. The DM was very evasive about the subject, as well as the player. |
Edited by - Aeriden Raven on 25 Jun 2003 12:52:02 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 17:18:30
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| Sounds strange. However, I've always found that it should be like that. Detect evil and such shouldn't apply unless the character is actually exhibiting that quality at that time. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Artalis
Senior Scribe
USA
444 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 19:08:55
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I think it's also important to remember that evil characters have loves and hates and friends and enemies. A lawful evil person can be a great friend/lover. Think of what he would do to someone who harmed the object of his friendship/love.
Also one must decide where the difference between evil and insane is. Normal intelligent people don't just go around doing evil things all the time even if they are evil. There has to be motivation to do it. Now if that person is psychotic AND Chaotic Evil run! |
Artalis
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 20:26:53
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Aeriden Raven:
quote:
No, I meant that her alignment was shifting back and forth. She would not be detected when a detect evil was cast and would not act really evil, but on the other hand she had no problem in helping my warlock setting fire to a farm and sacrificing the innocent people who lived there to my Demon prince. The DM was very evasive about the subject, as well as the player.
As I said in a previous post, that's not evil, that's insanity. There's a difference between "evil" and "Evil" in my opinion. A PC should only be "evil", i.e. not teribly concerned if his actions hurt other people, not very much compassion or empathy. The guy who mugs people is (simplistically, for the sake of this argument) "evil". Ted Bundy was "Evil", probably almost no compassion or empathy.
A demon has no choice but to be Evil (my guess is Ted Bundy probably couldn't stop himeself, either). That's part of its nature, just as it's human to breath air. PCs, even hardcore CE PCs, always have a choice. I'll say what I said before: Psychotic Evil is not an alignment. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2003 : 12:14:05
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branmakmuffin said -
quote:
A demon has no choice but to be Evil...That's part of its nature, just as it's human to breath air.
That is correct. Demons (tanar'ri) are the alignment[Evil] of the Abyss in physical form. They can never be anything but evil, as it is contrary to their core belief of Chaotic Evil which in turn is tied to their plane of creation (Abyss). It is the same as never finding a Devil (baatezu) which can be anything other than Lawful Evil.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 26 Jun 2003 12:15:18 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2003 : 19:32:09
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I have always played AASimon, Devils, Demons as the alignment assigned to them. I never liked having 'good' demons, or evil aasimon. It is a pet peeve of mine to put human values into these types of creatures. One argument someone gave me was a weak one that said well maybe this is the RARE devil that is good. I don't buy it BECAUSE it would be like saying this is the rare magma that does not incinerate you. It is an ALIEN in all sense of the word, and not even a DM can play thier psyche correctly. Assigning human values to these creatures is way off the mark.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2003 : 22:00:16
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That only makes sense. These beings are corporeal embodiements of ideals. A human paladin could never hope to be as Lawful Good as a Solar (or whatever).
That's a beef I have with monks. I guess the game asssumes that if a PC gets to 20th level as a monk, he's the living human embodiment of Lawfulness. This to me implies that (possibily) the monk has no choice but to be Lawful and should the player ever attempt to have his monk commit what the DM rules a Chaotic act, the DM should simply not allow the monk to do it. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2003 : 23:46:38
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Evil is hard to do, I guess. After all, most of us spend our lives trying so hard not to be evil that it's hard to remember how to be evil. I think, in most cases, that the character of Elaith Craulnober (with an alignment of Neutral Evil) can be used as a guideline, if you bare in mind the sort of thing he'd be likely to say:
"How is that my problem?" |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2003 : 09:30:24
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branmakmuffin said -
quote:
That only makes sense. These beings are corporeal embodiements of ideals. A human paladin could never hope to be as Lawful Good as a Solar (or whatever)...I guess the game asssumes that if a PC gets to 20th level as a monk, he's the living human embodiment of Lawfulness.
I simply put that to the fact that when TSR/WotC made the break with the Planescape setting, some things were lost. I think the distinction between planar and prime, has been weakened somewhat in 3e.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2003 : 23:47:34
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I never thought of the monk at 20th level in that light. INteresting. BUT not all outsiders are the embodiment of the plane where they reside. Pretty much I just make the Modrons, Demons, Devels, Demodands, Sladdi, And Assimon the embodiment. IT is possible to be an outsider of another type.
BUt I have puzzled over this: How are there fallen angels? Are they truly evil? I don't use fallen angels in my campaign. I am not even sure if I am willing to make D&D devils fallen angels. But it is still an interesting topic.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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How to play evil characters?
