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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 15:56:12
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I started this scroll to continue discussing the topic started in the Travel in the realms scroll(1).
(1) http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8419
My question is: how can it be explained in game/character that Halruaa´s Elders (Archwizards, or at least lvl15 as far as I remember!) use air ships of their own design that are clearly inferior to spelljammers?
Wooly & Sage came up with the following:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
At least one Halruaan skyship has been fitted with a spelljamming helm...
'Tis Random Riellor's skyship.
quote:
Spelljamming ships can be built by anyone, but the secret of making the helms remains a secret of the Arcane (or Mercane, as they seem to now be called). Sticking with skyships means you're sticking with a local creation, with local technology.
There's also the added advantage, through the local creation/local technology aspect, of skyship owners having relatively easy access to the knowledge necessary for repairing the magical rods that control each skyship. That is, in comparison to the difficulty one would experience when trying to repair either a spelljammer and/or their associated helms... since dealing with with the Arcane/Mercane may possibly end up costing you more than you originally planned! 
´nother idea: maybe the Halruaan Elders tried to bargain for better prices with the Arcane (2) or had other dealings with them that went bad, so the Arcane boycott them? I can see the Arcane as able to enforce such a boycott effectively, so smuggling in helms and spelljamming equipment might not work for the halruaans.
(2)...no, I won´t use the term "mercane"!
next thing:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From a cultural standpoint... Halruaa was founded by Netherese refugees. The Netherese had explored spelljamming, and decided it wasn't for them.
I never liked the idea that the Netherese gave up spelljamming. Not even the argument that they didn´t like being a small fish in a big pond and decided to stay at home as big fishes in a small pond convinced me: other groundling nations/civilizations/cultures are fare less developed and go (wild-)spaceward anyways. Think of the halflings of Anadia or the spelljamming lizardmen. Compared to that, a nation like Netheril with it´s large numbers of mages AND a strong arcane "infrastructure" to back up spelljamming needs and equip adventuring mages (yes, even with real and not quasimagical items!) should have had a comparably easy time in space - compared to other nations like the aforementioned.
Ok, there was the netherese supremecist mindset that might be prejudicial to a longterm presence in space ("spelljamming elves?!? Let´s blast them!"), but still... *mumbles on*
btw, somewhere on the old spelljammer newslist (and surely on beyond the moons is a writeup of a natherese enclave and even the beginnings of a writeup of a whole chrystal sphere of netherese fugitives.
But back to the halruaans: the fact that their ancestors gave up spelljamming doesn´t automatically mean that they follow their example. I don´t know how "traditionalistic" halruaan culture is, but in a nation with hundreds or thousands of mages (remember: mage = highly intelligent and therefore often curious!) there should be enough people with an interest in wildspace and other worlds!
Do we know whether or not Halruaa´s mages know about Selune´s/Leira´s "dirty little secret" (i.e. that the moon is NOT a barren piece of rock)? After all, they have lot´s of very good diviners, the most notable being their king... That would be another point of contact with spelljamming.
...more thoughts?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 16:26:43
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
Do we know whether or not Halruaa´s mages know about Selune´s/Leira´s "dirty little secret" (i.e. that the moon is NOT a barren piece of rock)? After all, they have lot´s of very good diviners, the most notable being their king... That would be another point of contact with spelljamming.
I'd say not... Not only is there a divinely-crafted illusion in place, but I don't see much reason for them to look into it too closely. "Hmmm, it looks barren... Okay, next." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 00:59:00
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
´nother idea: maybe the Halruaan Elders tried to bargain for better prices with the Arcane (2) or had other dealings with them that went bad, so the Arcane boycott them? I can see the Arcane as able to enforce such a boycott effectively, so smuggling in helms and spelljamming equipment might not work for the halruaans.
Given their interest in making money, and their overall penchant for manipulative business dealings which benefit only the Arcane, it's more likely that the Halruaans went to various planar markets in search of "cheap" helms, and thought they were getting a better deal for the helms through a secretive third-party in Sigil. The Halruaans, satisfied in the knowledge that Arcane try to avoid the City of Doors, take heart in thinking they've found genuine "blackmarket helms". At which point, the Halruaans are caught out when it is revealed the third-party merchants were actually representing (and working for) the Arcane in Sigil.
Displeased with the Halruaans dishonest actions (actions the Arcane clearly orchestrated to produce the desired result)... the wizards were forced to deal with the Arcane and purchase the helms at increased cost.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 01:13:50
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I wouldn't be surprised if it were a simple matter of the Halruaans being on the "naughty" list for the Arcane, if only because they are decended from the Netherese. I may be that the Netherese didn't just abandon Spelljamming because everyone in Wildspace hated them, they may have offended the Arcane as well. Knowing the Netherese, they may have tried to create their own helms by "reverse engineering" on they got from the Arcane, and perhaps got a bit too close to figuring one out, and thus were banned, especially if they had already caused problems among other spelljamming races.
Its also possible that the Halruaans, who do have egos, may have decided that there isn't anything in Wildspace that they need to make them better wizards, especially since ports are fairly few and far between. Planar travel has the advantage of often being able to get you fairly close to where you want to be, so that you can deal with whoever you want to deal with, or collect whatever rare item you want to.
In a lot of ways, as much as I love Spelljammer, you have to admit planar travel can be a bit more . . . efficient. |
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Alediran
Acolyte
Argentina
36 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 15:02:03
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| Dumb question, what truly exist on the moon, it's the first time I hear there is something there other than a barren rock. |
Alediran of House Tir'ent from Evermeet, the most knowledgeable elven family about Faerûn.
- Member of the Elven Netbook proyect |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 16:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
Dumb question, what truly exist on the moon, it's the first time I hear there is something there other than a barren rock.
Humans, elves, and a large wildspace settlement of Leira worshippers, or former worshippers since she's dead, as well as other races. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 17:02:19
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where is there info about that?`
*getting nasty ideas of a teleport going haywire and transport players to the moon* |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 17:12:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
Dumb question, what truly exist on the moon, it's the first time I hear there is something there other than a barren rock.
Humans, elves, and a large wildspace settlement of Leira worshippers, or former worshippers since she's dead, as well as other races.
Further, they are paranoid and worried about discovery by Toril, and an illusion crafted by Leira herself makes the moon appear to be a barren rock, hiding the actual landscape. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 19:56:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
where is there info about that?`
*getting nasty ideas of a teleport going haywire and transport players to the moon*
Realmspace spelljammer sourcebook. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 19:57:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
Dumb question, what truly exist on the moon, it's the first time I hear there is something there other than a barren rock.
Humans, elves, and a large wildspace settlement of Leira worshippers, or former worshippers since she's dead, as well as other races.
Further, they are paranoid and worried about discovery by Toril, and an illusion crafted by Leira herself makes the moon appear to be a barren rock, hiding the actual landscape.
Until Ed answers my question that I posed to him the other day or so, I'm going to say that either that illusion is gone or Cyric has taken on the magic of the illusion, since Leira be dead. But Ed might have a different answer and I await his answer. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 20:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Until Ed answers my question that I posed to him the other day or so, I'm going to say that either that illusion is gone or Cyric has taken on the magic of the illusion, since Leira be dead. But Ed might have a different answer and I await his answer.
I actually asked that question several years ago, in Sage Advice. I never got a reply. 
It also must be mentioned that the Realmspace info may not be accurate. We already have info about the Tears of the Selûne entry may not be right (specifically, when the Tears appeared), and the Nimbral info we've been given made no mention of The Resort.
We don't have any reason to doubt the info about everything beyond Toril, Selûne, and the Tears... But the info Realmspace gives about those three areas is quite problematic. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Dec 2006 21:04:21 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 23:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
Dumb question, what truly exist on the moon, it's the first time I hear there is something there other than a barren rock.
Humans, elves, and a large wildspace settlement of Leira worshippers, or former worshippers since she's dead, as well as other races.
I'd assume dwarves make up some percentage of those "other races."
Even though their petitions to set up mines on the moon have met with little success, dwarves are inherently a stubborn people. Thus, a small community of them likely exists on Selune for express purpose of "reminding the authorities" why they are there. They may even attempt what little prospecting they can get away with from time to time... though, I'd imagine the Selunite government does all it can to dissuade such dwarven actions -- for fears about outsiders discovering the "invasion shelters."
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 23:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
Dumb question, what truly exist on the moon, it's the first time I hear there is something there other than a barren rock.
Humans, elves, and a large wildspace settlement of Leira worshippers, or former worshippers since she's dead, as well as other races.
Further, they are paranoid and worried about discovery by Toril, and an illusion crafted by Leira herself makes the moon appear to be a barren rock, hiding the actual landscape.
Until Ed answers my question that I posed to him the other day or so, I'm going to say that either that illusion is gone or Cyric has taken on the magic of the illusion, since Leira be dead. But Ed might have a different answer and I await his answer.
I'd say that, until we hear otherwise, Leira's illusion simply isn't what it used to be.
It may be that it has decayed somewhat, since with Leira herself now gone, the worshippers have nothing to pray to in order to continue benefiting from Leira's "gift."
Cyric taking on the illusion is an interesting prospect, perhaps even having him posing as Leira for a time. Though, I'd imagine he's only doing this because he feels he can eventually turn this sizable portion of Leira-worshippers to him and increase his power beyond Toril itself.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2006 : 07:14:16
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| wouldn't Selune have an interest in supporting the people on the moon granting them their spells and keeping the illusion standing (maybe even with the support of Mystra who makes sure that, that is one of the thinks that her chosen can't 'learn') |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2006 : 11:40:06
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| Why are these moondwellers frightened of the possibility that the people living on Toril might discover them? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2006 : 13:00:06
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| colonisation attemts destroying the lands they have |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2006 : 14:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Why are these moondwellers frightened of the possibility that the people living on Toril might discover them?
The inhabitants of Selune have a nice little system of government established on the moon, as well as a strong society devoted almost solely to enjoying their passions. As such, they'd likely want to keep these intact with as little interference from Toril as possible.
The fact that the people of Selune train their school-aged children in guerilla combat tactics supports this. They want to ensure that all citizens are aware of the dangers presented by a possible invasion from Toril.
They like their world the way it is, and they'll fight to keep it that way if necessary. As they see it... there are far too many sinister factions operating on Toril that would seek to exploit Selune for all its worth should they come to the moon itself.
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Dec 2006 14:31:14 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2006 : 17:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Why are these moondwellers frightened of the possibility that the people living on Toril might discover them?
The inhabitants of Selune have a nice little system of government established on the moon, as well as a strong society devoted almost solely to enjoying their passions. As such, they'd likely want to keep these intact with as little interference from Toril as possible.
The fact that the people of Selune train their school-aged children in guerilla combat tactics supports this. They want to ensure that all citizens are aware of the dangers presented by a possible invasion from Toril.
They like their world the way it is, and they'll fight to keep it that way if necessary. As they see it... there are far too many sinister factions operating on Toril that would seek to exploit Selune for all its worth should they come to the moon itself.
I think I've stumbled upon the RSE of 2008. "Invasion of the moon" written by none other than Troy "deathstar" Denning. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2006 : 23:19:18
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Why are these moondwellers frightened of the possibility that the people living on Toril might discover them?
The inhabitants of Selune have a nice little system of government established on the moon, as well as a strong society devoted almost solely to enjoying their passions. As such, they'd likely want to keep these intact with as little interference from Toril as possible.
The fact that the people of Selune train their school-aged children in guerilla combat tactics supports this. They want to ensure that all citizens are aware of the dangers presented by a possible invasion from Toril.
They like their world the way it is, and they'll fight to keep it that way if necessary. As they see it... there are far too many sinister factions operating on Toril that would seek to exploit Selune for all its worth should they come to the moon itself.
I think I've stumbled upon the RSE of 2008. "Invasion of the moon" written by none other than Troy "deathstar" Denning.
I wouldn't mind the other worlds of Realmspace to receive some attention in 3e... though not anything to this grand extent.
At most, I'd prefer the odd mention about recent events or what been happening on each of the worlds with inhabitants since 2e.
Until we receive an update in 3e, most of the 2e lore on the other worlds holds, for the most part.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2007 : 22:21:11
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Upon rereading some of the information in Realmspace, some ideas strike me. For example, the primary inhabitants of Selune are elves and humans the worship Leira and are paranoid about being discovered by the people on Toril.
What if the original settlers of Selune are actually Nimbralese? Elves and humans that are interested in magic and secluding themselves away from the rest of the Realms? Perhaps something happened in Nimbral at some point in time that caused them to decide to take their families and leave. Perhaps they found some native inhabitants and swayed them to their way of thinking upon arriving on the moon.
As "invaders" themselves, many of the Nimbralese settlers might have been very aware of the fact that others might decide to settle the moon, and thus they became even more paranoid about Torilian travelers, especially when they are of Halruaan decent, since they already have had a falling out with them to begin with.
If any Nimbralese show up, especially recently, with their discussions of Leira's death, the Selune residents are likely to view this as propaganda leveled directly at them, designed to make them give up their way of life. By default, all of the divine magic recieveing classes on Selune would take Servant of the Fallen feat due to their steadfast beleif that she is still with them.
As to the illusion, I would say that perhaps it was granted by an artifact given to the Selune inhabitants. As it was an artifact invested with her power before her death, there isn't any real change in status now that she is gone. On top of that, I would say that, despite having some population native to the moon when they arrived, most of the moon WAS barren (since ancient records don't record Selune looking any differently) and that the spellcasters among the Nimbralese settlers "terraformed" the surface, blanketed by the illusion.
On top of all of this, there may actually have been a few instances of the paranoia of the Leirans being warrented, as I'm sure some Cyricists have shown up from time to time to subvert the population (or go underground to slowly erode faith in their old goddess).
Finally, while I'm sure the dominant faith of the moon is Leiran, I would venture to say that the elves brought a reverance for Sehinine Moonbow and the native inhabitants may have worshiped Selune herself, so that these other two goddesses are revered in the colony as well, though not likely anywhere near as devoutly as Leira is. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2007 : 00:17:13
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That's actually a really cool idea... You might want to think about developing it further and making it a Compendium article.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2007 : 00:23:21
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| Thanks Wooly, I might have to take that under advisement. I've been doing a bit of Spelljammer research lately as I have to explain the "missing year" of the adventurers when they flew off in a gnomish welk into Wildspace. I had most of the books back in 2nd edition days, but I haven't had to use the information in a LONG time . . . |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 09:53:05
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after re-reading the spelljammer books AND this thread again, some ideas are floating in:
1) NETHERIL: there was at least one spelljamming-interested enclave ("Oberon's Hold", see the netheril boxed set).
1a) The Netherese once tried to settle on Selune...
1b) The Netherese once tried to conquer Selune...
ad. 1b who was living there before?
ad. 1b) were they successful? If "yes", then todays culture on Selune (or "Leira", as Seluntes call their moon) might be related to netherese culture (like haruaan culture). If "no", then we have the reason why the moons inhabitants are so paranoid about torilian invasions.
2) Halruaa: maybe that's where Halruaa's elders lost against the Acrane: they tried basically the same thing the Netherese in 1b) tried (either again or 1b) never happened...) and got repelled. The Arcane took sides with the moons inhabitants (which is more likely - after all, Halruaa is a groundling nation and has not as much business potential as a already spelljamming-aware and -using moon!) and embargo'ed Halruaa from this time on.
...any conflicts with logic and canon?
...btw, there was a nice ideag-gathering session on the spelljammer-newslist and wotc's boards about a netherese chrystal sphere last year! check out
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605961&page=1&pp=30 |
Edited by - tauster on 31 Jan 2007 09:53:45 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 11:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Upon rereading some of the information in Realmspace, some ideas strike me. For example, the primary inhabitants of Selune are elves and humans the worship Leira and are paranoid about being discovered by the people on Toril.
What if the original settlers of Selune are actually Nimbralese? Elves and humans that are interested in magic and secluding themselves away from the rest of the Realms? Perhaps something happened in Nimbral at some point in time that caused them to decide to take their families and leave. Perhaps they found some native inhabitants and swayed them to their way of thinking upon arriving on the moon.
As "invaders" themselves, many of the Nimbralese settlers might have been very aware of the fact that others might decide to settle the moon, and thus they became even more paranoid about Torilian travelers, especially when they are of Halruaan decent, since they already have had a falling out with them to begin with.
If any Nimbralese show up, especially recently, with their discussions of Leira's death, the Selune residents are likely to view this as propaganda leveled directly at them, designed to make them give up their way of life. By default, all of the divine magic recieveing classes on Selune would take Servant of the Fallen feat due to their steadfast beleif that she is still with them.
[snip]
Finally, while I'm sure the dominant faith of the moon is Leiran, I would venture to say that the elves brought a reverance for Sehinine Moonbow and the native inhabitants may have worshiped Selune herself, so that these other two goddesses are revered in the colony as well, though not likely anywhere near as devoutly as Leira is.
At first, I didn't like the idea of a "Leira-only" religous landscape on the moon. But on the other hand it would be a nice opportunity to potrait a monotheistic culture, because it would have a very different feeling compared to Toril with it's hundred(s) of deities. Add this to the overly hedonistic attitude of the Selunites, and you have a very memorable culture!
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
As to the illusion, I would say that perhaps it was granted by an artifact given to the Selune inhabitants. As it was an artifact invested with her power before her death, there isn't any real change in status now that she is gone. On top of that, I would say that, despite having some population native to the moon when they arrived, most of the moon WAS barren (since ancient records don't record Selune looking any differently) and that the spellcasters among the Nimbralese settlers "terraformed" the surface, blanketed by the illusion.
[...]
On top of all of this, there may actually have been a few instances of the paranoia of the Leirans being warrented, as I'm sure some Cyricists have shown up from time to time to subvert the population (or go underground to slowly erode faith in their old goddess)
I LOVE the idea of a "cloaking-artifact" that survived Leiras death! It makes perfect sense and doesn't change any canon, afaik.
...some more ideas floating around:
- what if Leira, upon her death, was able to transform her personality in the artifact (or at least part of herself)?
- alternatively, the artifact could have gained consciousness after the deicide, acting in her place (granting spells, etc...) and facilitating the belief on the moon that the goddess is still alive and was never murdered.
- ...any other cultures tha could have tried to conquer the moon? that would be an ideal opportunity to bring your favourite fallen culture (jamdaath, netheril, the imaskari,...) back to live! 
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Ranin
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 23:56:50
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howbout starjammers vs. spelljammers?
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Listen to the silence of the wilds, in there lies the wisdom of ages. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 00:07:13
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I've often thought about doing exactly that... the Starjammer and her crew, as the PCs, facing off against a group of fiendish illithids and a small armada of Nautiloids in the further reaches of Wildspace just beyond Shi'ar Imperial space.
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Edited by - The Sage on 03 Feb 2007 00:09:12 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 05:06:36
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Couple of thoughts here, if I may -
KnightErrantJR mentioned the 'Naughty' Netherese (love that, BTW), and it got me thinking. Suppose, just suppose, that the Mercane used a true 10th level spell to create their helms. In whatever sphere they are from there is no ban in effect, so they could do this. This, BTW, is a VERY good reason why no one else can ever figure out how to make them. Then the Netherease come along, or at least Karsus. They probably didn't like the Netherese much to begin with, with their "We'll just build our own helms" attitude (which they failed at), and then Karsus casts his spell an WHAM - out go the lights. Every helm, along with all other magic in Realmspace, ceases to function for a few minutes. It goes back on line soon enough, but after that some of the older helms are 'acting funny' (since some of the rules have changed with Mystra), and soon they find out that any NEW helms they build do not function AT ALL in Realmspace (I'm led to understand that pre-existing 10+ effects would still work, but anything new would fail after the ban). The Mercane would have to spend years, not to mention a great deal of money, on R&D designing a NEW Epic spell that would re-create the process. This would get the Mercane VERY annoyed, especially since they would have to do all of this because of one little sphere (not really so little). I think they are the type to hold a grudge for a few thousand years.
Thought #2 - suppose there IS an artifact (cloaking device), but Leira used to have to 'recharge' it every once in awhile. Now its starting to run low, and the Leirists can't figure out why their deity hasn't returned to place more power into it. That alone could be a few adventure hooks, with various 'moon' groups wanting to hire someone to solve the mystery. The flip side of this would be that the moon has begun to 'flicker'. Every once in a while people would look up and the moon would turn green for few moments. Groundling nations would want to know whats going on and be willing to higher adventures to look into it.
#3 - This is the one I REALLY like. What if in the early days of Netherese space travel (since they did look into it a bit) one of the Enclaves approached a group of Space dwarves about turning an Enclave into a Dwarven Citadel? The Dwarves used the sheared off tops of mountains too, the only difference to them would be that it was upside down this time. If the Netherese used a mountain that was particularly rich in minerals, I think the Dwarves could have been persueded to live on the inside, while the Netherese lived 'topside'. Just imagine what would happen when THAT Enclave comes home!
Some final thoughts - wouldn't the Shou know the truth about Selune, and maybe even have a base there? Wouldn't the Elves of Evermeet do likewise? Maybe set up an embassy to contact the IEN when they need to? Lastly, don't those same Elves make THEIR OWN ships, with built-in helms? Not sure about this, but I always assumed the Elven Helms were part of the ships and 'grown' along with them. The Evermeet novel suggests this, since they have ships and have never met the Mercane/Arcane.
What do you guys think about this? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2007 15:49:04 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 10:27:29
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some really good stuff here! *thumbs up*
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Couple of thoughts here, if I may -
KnightErrantJR mentioned the 'Naughty' Netherese (love that, BTW), and it got me thinking. Suppose, just suppose, that the Mercane used a true 10th level spell to create their helms. In whatever sphere they are from there is no ban in effect, so they could do this. This, BTW, is a VERY good reason why no one else can ever figure out how to make them. Then the Netherease come along, or at least Karsus. They probably didn't like the Netherese much to begin with, with their "We'll just build our own helms" attitude (which they failed at), and then Karsus casts his spell an WHAM - out go the lights. Every helm, along with all other magic in Realmspace, ceases to function for a few minutes. It goes back on line soon enough, but after that some of the older helms are 'acting funny' (since some of the rules have changed with Mystra), and soon they find out that any NEW helms they build do not function AT ALL in Realmspace (I'm led to understand that pre-existing 10+ effects would still work, but anything new would fail after the ban). The Mercane would have to spend years, not to mention a great deal of money, on R&D designing a NEW Epic spell that would re-create the process. This would get the Mercane VERY annoyed, especially since they would have to do all of this because of one little sphere (not really so little). I think they are the type to hold a grudge for a few thousand years.
wow... that's one of these moments when I ask myself "why didn't this occur to me?"
Yes, "The Karsus Incident" (tm) might be the reason the Arcane (I'll stay with their 2nd Edition name) still hold a grudge against Netheril and, as their successors, Halruaa. It has the elegant advantage of explaining one aspect of canon lore (halruaan mages don't use spelljammers) by reffering to another canon event (The Karsus Incident) without contradicting or changing anything.
quote:
Thought #2 - suppose there IS an artifact (cloaking device), but Leira used to have to 'recharge' it every once in awhile. Now its starting to run low, and the Leirists can't figure out why their deity hasn't returned to place more power into it. That alone could be a few adventure hooks, with various 'moon' groups wanting to higher someone to solve the mystery. The flip side of this would be that the moon has begun to 'flicker'. Every once in a while people would look up and the moon would turn green for few moments. Groundling nations would want to know whats going on and be willing to higher adventures to look into it.
I would like to see that adventure, but it should be played with players who know a) the Spelljammer multiverse and b) Toril (i.e. the Forgotten Realms setting), to understand the background of their own player characters. It would have the potential to be a great crossover adventure: after a time of searching for the answer of the mystery, the party would go planehopping and trying to visit Leiras domain...
quote:
#3 - This is the one I REALLY like. What if in the early days of Netherese space travel (since they did look into it a bit) one of the Enclaves approached a group of Space dwarves about turning an Enclave into a Dwarven Citadel? The Dwarves used the sheared off tops of mountains too, the only difference to them would be that it was upside down this time. If the Netherese used a mountain that was particularly rich in minerals, I think the Dwarves could have been persueded to live on the inside, while the Netherese lived 'topside'. Just imagine what would happen when THAT Enclave comes home!
Personally, I would use this enclave as the nucleus of a netherese survivor realm somewhere in wildspace. It might be anything from:
- the old citadel itself: the mine is long since played-out, so it would be somewhere stationary, effectively a wildspace settlement - maybe even in realmspace(1)), to
- a realm on a planet, probably in another sphere
(there are not many other "free" hospitable planets in the sphere).
- a planet-wide culture: They found an "empty" hospitable planet and settled it. Without any other sentient species (or at least non with which they were competing for land & resources), they slowly spread over a large part of the continents. Just remember that they had "only" a bit more than one millenium (correct me if I'm wrong..) time, so a completely settled planet would be a bit weird.
- a sphere-wide culture: The netherese/dwarfish enclave found a chrystal sphere with no hostile/competing culture, and they decided they liked it. Maybe with some divine direction? I'd love a sphere with the netherese pantheon still alive!  They spread out and settled some small worlds: asteroid settlements are quite similar to enclaves - that's why they prefer this kind of settlement above being "planetbound groundlings"). Small, hospitable moons without sentient species (or at least nothing that would resist them) for agriculture, maybe a few centuries later some group parted from the main culture (in peace or after conflict?). Especially the dwarves would wander off, exploring the whole sphere for stuff to be mined...
quote:
Some final thoughts - wouldn't the Shou know the truth about Selune, and maybe even have a base there? Wouldn't the Elves of Evermeet do likewise? Maybe set up an embassy to contact the IEN when they need to? Lastly, don't those same Elves make THEIR OWN ships, with built-in helms? Not sure about this, but I always assumed the Elven Helms were part of the ships and 'grown' along with them. The Evermeet novel suggests this, since they have ships and have never met the Mercane/Arcane.
What do you guys think about this?
Everybody who owns a spelljammer (and not only using it as a planet-bound means of transport) would know the truth of moon! If you acknowledge the fan fiction from "beyond the moons", that includes at least Waterdeep, Cormyr (both have small spelljamming fleets) and Sembia, along with the (surely quite numerous) privately owned spelljammers. Evermeet knows it, Shu as well.
But "knowing it" doesn't mean that everyone knows it! Just the crew of the ships, and perhaps their relatives or friends - and even they might take it for cock-and-bull stories. I think the populace of Toril still thinks Selune is barren.
(1) I prefer "Torilspace" over "Realmspace" because the name "Forgotten Realms" is not really used by the people on Toril (or elsewhere). Toril is the planet that dominates the sphere, so it should be called Torilspace. At least that's how I handle it in my game, ymmv. |
Edited by - tauster on 03 Feb 2007 10:35:22 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 10:36:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've often thought about doing exactly that... the Starjammer and her crew, as the PCs, facing off against a group of fiendish illithids and a small armada of Nautiloids in the further reaches of Wildspace just beyond Shi'ar Imperial space.
 Starjammer?! Shi'ar Imperial space?!?
Sage, I never heard of that before. Please enlighten me, where can I read about that, and what's a STARjammer? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 16:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've often thought about doing exactly that... the Starjammer and her crew, as the PCs, facing off against a group of fiendish illithids and a small armada of Nautiloids in the further reaches of Wildspace just beyond Shi'ar Imperial space.
Starjammer?! Shi'ar Imperial space?!?
Sage, I never heard of that before. Please enlighten me, where can I read about that, and what's a STARjammer?
LOL!
Oh, you aren't a TRUE nerd, I see. 
Those things are from marvel comics, and more specifically the X-Men. I never used the Shi'ar myself, but I've tied the Skrulls and Dire Wraiths to dopplegangers in my campaign, and have used the demon S'ym, along with his limbo dwelling master Belasco.
You just gotta love comics for gaming ideas. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 17:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
(1) I prefer "Torilspace" over "Realmspace" because the name "Forgotten Realms" is not really used by the people on Toril (or elsewhere). Toril is the planet that dominates the sphere, so it should be called Torilspace. At least that's how I handle it in my game, ymmv.
No, but they do call it "the Realms". And I'm not recalling seeing any character making a reference to Toril... So I think Realmspace is more appropriate. |
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Halruaan Skyships vs. Spelljammers
