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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 17:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Some final thoughts - wouldn't the Shou know the truth about Selune, and maybe even have a base there? Wouldn't the Elves of Evermeet do likewise? Maybe set up an embassy to contact the IEN when they need to? Lastly, don't those same Elves make THEIR OWN ships, with built-in helms? Not sure about this, but I always assumed the Elven Helms were part of the ships and 'grown' along with them. The Evermeet novel suggests this, since they have ships and have never met the Mercane/Arcane.
What do you guys think about this?
The Shou would certainly know about Selūne, but their space program has waxed and waned over the years. They might have had an embassy there at one point, but have since abandoned it or been chased out by the Leirans.
The EIN stops on Evermeet as it is, so the elves of Evermeet don't need a embassy on Selūne. Besides, they are a groundling nation, and are more concerned with events on their own world.
But...
Steven Schend placed the Rock of Bral in the Tears of Selūne. And the Shou and the EIN both have embassies there, IIRC. So that negates the need to pay any attention to Selūne. Why deal with a bunch of paranoid xenophobes when there's an established and friendly spaceport a few minutes away?
As for Evermeet's elves growing their own ships... The helms are not grown as part of the ship. So far, the Arcane have kept the secret of crafting spelljamming helms to themselves. I'd say that the Starwings have a variant kind of spelljamming helm, one that doesn't allow for interstellar speeds. Moving at regular tactical speed would mean a journey to the moon would take a month or more (I once ran the numbers for a sphere I designed; at tactical speed, the moon for this one planet was more than 80 days away).
This variant helm could even be a "discount" model from the Arcane. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Feb 2007 17:56:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 19:29:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for Evermeet's elves growing their own ships... The helms are not grown as part of the ship. So far, the Arcane have kept the secret of crafting spelljamming helms to themselves. I'd say that the Starwings have a variant kind of spelljamming helm, one that doesn't allow for interstellar speeds. Moving at regular tactical speed would mean a journey to the moon would take a month or more (I once ran the numbers for a sphere I designed; at tactical speed, the moon for this one planet was more than 80 days away).
This variant helm could even be a "discount" model from the Arcane.
Forgot about the nearby bases, I haven't read the Realmspace guide in awhile.
wouldn't it be a kick in the head if the one that fell (tear) was one of the based ones? Hmmm... we already have Neogi in the pirate islands, what else could have come done with the base? 
I do like the idea of the Elven Helms being a variant, since I never really like the people of Faerun having much space involvement. Also, they never had any contact with the Mercane, so this would make more sense. I do like my idea that they 'grown-in' to the ships though, because this way they can't sell their helms seperately.
The only problem I foresee with adding this into my campaign as lore is then what helms do the EIN use? Are the standard Elven ones grown-in, and then the Mercane are hired to make adjustments? Like in Star Trek, the Elves would have Impulse power but they would need to buy warp engines. Comments?
Although the idea of a 'bargain bin' at the locale mercane store has a certain appeal. 
"Seconds, defects, and irregulars, use at your own risk" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2007 05:10:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 20:38:58
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Elven ships are listed as having either major or minor spelljamming helms -- which means they deal with the Arcane.
The ships are grown from starfly plants -- I can't see any way to grow a power source as part of that. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 00:01:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've often thought about doing exactly that... the Starjammer and her crew, as the PCs, facing off against a group of fiendish illithids and a small armada of Nautiloids in the further reaches of Wildspace just beyond Shi'ar Imperial space.
 Starjammer?! Shi'ar Imperial space?!?
Sage, I never heard of that before. Please enlighten me, where can I read about that, and what's a STARjammer?
LOL!
Oh, you aren't a TRUE nerd, I see. 
Excuse me! The Lady K calls it creativity...
Seriously, Tauster, despite its name, the Starjammer has nothing to do with Spelljammer. The Starjammer and her crew are fairly well-known characters in the Marvel universe, specifically tied with the X-Men (though they've popped up elsewhere over the years). As part of a multi-arc adventure series I ran across four worlds (including a fantasy Earth [which includes the warp-gate to Shi'ar Imperial space], Krynn, Oerth, and Athas), the Starjammer was tasked with a duty that saw it travel to each in order to accomplish one particular mission crucial to the overall campaign. I generated some quick 2e stats for the Starjammer, and worked up some stats using classes from 2e for the crew. The PCs would then select which member of the crew they wished to be and begin play as one of them.
quote:
Those things are from marvel comics, and more specifically the X-Men. I never used the Shi'ar myself, but I've tied the Skrulls and Dire Wraiths to dopplegangers in my campaign, and have used the demon S'ym, along with his limbo dwelling master Belasco.
You just gotta love comics for gaming ideas. 
Indeed.
Try running the Inferno scenario as a "Blood War"-styled incursion into the Realms. It's great fun!
-- Although, in my version, Madelyne Pryor wears far more clothes.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 05:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
-- Although, in my version, Madelyne Pryor wears far more clothes.
She couldn't wear much less... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 05:18:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
She couldn't wear much less...
But less is so much more... Alias.
I also loved the Norse God/New mutants crossover years ago,the one where Talisman becomes a Valkyrie (An American Indian Valkyrie!). Still trying to figure out how to work that into a game. The artwork was SO inspiring, best Asgard I've ever seen...
Not to mention the scene where the Emerald Empress gets out of bed nude, and there is a desicated husk of a man still smoldering in her bed. 
Ummm... back on topic - So the EIN have TRUE spelljamming helms, and the groundling Elves have cheap knockoffs? I like it! Maybe those could be the same as what powers the Halruuan skyships, and if so maybe thats where Evermeet gets them (or filched the tech from). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2007 05:21:54 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 10:34:54
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This is a bit off-topic, but I don't want to open a new scroll for that...
quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayUmmm... back on topic - So the EIN have TRUE spelljamming helms, and the groundling Elves have cheap knockoffs? I like it! Maybe those could be the same as what powers the Halruuan skyships, and if so maybe thats where Evermeet gets them (or filched the tech from).
...really, helms are one hell of a mess, rules- and game- wise! 
They should be highlevel-magic and thus, expensive - but they'll kill game balance because parties can sell even a minor helm for 100K gold pieces. ...or less, if there's no rich buyer - or even much, much MORE, if they are going to invest a little time and hop from city to city (they'll have their own ship, remember!) to find someone with enough money and the desire to really, really, REALLY want that thingy. In theory, they don't have to bother with the captured ship, because after a battle it will certainly be damaged and it would need a crew they can trust to fly it home. Heck, they don't even have to loot it (unless there's something REALLY valuable on board) - just take the helm and leave the ship behind. If it's a major helm, they'll get whopping 250.000 Gold pieces - on average!
On the other side, if you design helms to be less expensive and therefore less "highlevel-magical", there's no convincing reason anymore for the arcane monopoly. If helms were as easy to "produce" as a dagger +1 (exaggerated, of course), almost every magic user could have one!
...and that's only the financial side. Helms can easily kill other aspects of the game: since they need magic users (mages, clerics, bards...) to sit on them and since they drain their magical potential for that day, these PC's are more or less out of the action. OK, they "act as the ship" and can communicate with the rest of the party (crew), they fly the ship and so on... but still: when it comes to a ship fight, they won't be able to swing through the ship's rigging and do all that great swashbuckling maneuvers that are part of the setting and sooo cool!
What's worse, you need at least TWO magic users per day, as a spelljamming shift is 8 hours long (plus adittional 4 hours, if you take a -1 malus on everything). So now the party's cleric AND the mage are out of the action! Of course you can hire NPC's to do the helmsman's job (you'll have to, anyway because you need a crew for your ship..), but that a) costs you money (1) and b) introduces new characters that might steal the limelight away from the party(2).
(1) On the other side, that's a good way to take away all those shiny gold pieces from selling looted helms  )
(2) ...or are a source for endless intrigue, interesting adventures, fun, etc. Seems like everything has two sides, at least!
One more "flaw": speed! The only things that decide how fast your ship is are
a) whether you have a major or minor helm (all the other official helm variants are not as common to alleviate this) and
b) the level of the helmsmen.
No chance to own (or meet and battle) "The Swift Princesss", fastest ship in the spheres - because you'd need a major helm for that (which many other ships have as well) and one (or more!) highlevel helmsmen (which can be on many of the other ships out there as well)...
There are several alternative approaches to helms on spelljammer.org. My favourite one is this:
http://www.spelljammer.org/ships/helms/alternate_helm.html
It takes into account several problems:
- not only magic users can man a helm
- helms can be much cheaper (though the general price level stays the same)
- variable sailing speeds
- the imo very cool "battery-effect"
I think that it's even possiple to classify the helms of the groudnling elves and halruaan "helms" in that system. Though I feel the elven helms should be "real" spelljamming helms... |
Edited by - tauster on 04 Feb 2007 10:36:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 15:02:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe those could be the same as what powers the Halruuan skyships, and if so maybe thats where Evermeet gets them (or filched the tech from).
Halruaan skyships have nothing to do with spelljammers... A few skyships have spelljamming helms, but those are the minority. Halruaan skyships are powered by many, many levitation spells cast on the shells that line the hull. They are controlled by wind and a special rod linked to the shells. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 15:35:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe those could be the same as what powers the Halruuan skyships, and if so maybe thats where Evermeet gets them (or filched the tech from).
Halruaan skyships have nothing to do with spelljammers... A few skyships have spelljamming helms, but those are the minority. Halruaan skyships are powered by many, many levitation spells cast on the shells that line the hull. They are controlled by wind and a special rod linked to the shells.
*harrumph* ...at least that's what the halruaans tell the rest of the world(1). Maybe they are just too embarrassed because they lost against the Arcane and had to develop their own, severly more limited version of flying ships, planet-bound and slow...
(1) Yes, I know it's canon!
Personally, I like a Halruaa better whose flying ships are at least partially related to spelljammers (see all the ideas in this thread). Regardless of canon, I think the best version is always the one that works best for an individual campaign: my players are at the moment in Halruaa and see all those mighty wizards with their countless magical knick-knacks - they will be grinning from ear to ear when they'll hear the story about the halruaan losing big time!
...and I really don't like the official version of the halruaan skyship. Imo, it lacks arcane finesse. But that's just me...
On the other hand: I'm not sure I like a Halruaa where every Elder has a fully working Spelljammer. Imagine what they could do if they'd put such a fleet to good use! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 23:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe those could be the same as what powers the Halruuan skyships, and if so maybe thats where Evermeet gets them (or filched the tech from).
Halruaan skyships have nothing to do with spelljammers... A few skyships have spelljamming helms, but those are the minority. Halruaan skyships are powered by many, many levitation spells cast on the shells that line the hull. They are controlled by wind and a special rod linked to the shells.
Indeed.
One of the more recent mentions was made by Eric, in the write-up for Kethid of Serpent Kingdoms. Several Halruaan Skyships are said to be capable of "sailing amongst the stars." Eric told me this was another "vague" reference to SJing in 3e FR.
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Edited by - The Sage on 04 Feb 2007 23:54:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 06:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Halruaan skyships have nothing to do with spelljammers... A few skyships have spelljamming helms, but those are the minority. Halruaan skyships are powered by many, many levitation spells cast on the shells that line the hull. They are controlled by wind and a special rod linked to the shells.
Actually, MY Halruuan Skyships can be powered by WHATEVER I say powers them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 08:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the other hand: I'm not sure I like a Halruaa where every Elder has a fully working Spelljammer. Imagine what they could do if they'd put such a fleet to good use!
well ... Skyships are that slow that they doesn't really have any military use (sure they can get up on 40mph but thats only under tricky uses of 'relativly' small cold areas or massive semipermanent coldspells) |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 12:25:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Halruaan skyships have nothing to do with spelljammers... A few skyships have spelljamming helms, but those are the minority. Halruaan skyships are powered by many, many levitation spells cast on the shells that line the hull. They are controlled by wind and a special rod linked to the shells.
Actually, MY Halruuan Skyships can be powered by WHATEVER I say powers them.
Was that really necessary? No one was saying you had to stick to canon. You are free to deviate from canon however you wish. Change what you want, but don't snap at people for discussing canon.
All I am going to discuss is canon. Canon says -- and has since 1E -- that Halruaan ships are powered as I described. And though the power source for the elven starwings has never really been discussed, they obviously don't have the same power source, because their performance is so different.
I see no reason to change either of these things (and problems if they are changed), but it's your campaign. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 18:48:26
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The problem, is as I see it, is that many of 2e systems were a mish-mosh. In fact, like in the case of helms, there were too many SEPERATE systems for things. The worst offender I can think off was the 'fatigue' systems, wasn't there like a dozen different versions? Now 3e was supposed to clean all of that up, but unfortunately is slowly traveling down that 'optional rules' morass that got us into trouble the last time. The fact that there are at least three different feats that grant 'circle magic' is bringing back my THACO nightmares.
Now what does this have to do with the topic (or ANY topic, for that matter)? We, as players AND DMs owe it to ourselves to simplify what we read into more 'playable' terms. So even if canon says that there are a dozen different types of Helms, and Evermeet ships have another kind and Halruuan ships fly without them, etc... (Not to mention the Mystaran Skyships, but I know this is an FR board), it is easier for US to say "why don't we just say that these work the same?" Canon may say they are different, and we can tell our players they work differently (as per canon), but in our heads we KNOW that they really are all the same in function somewhat.
There is nothing wrong with discussing 'simplifying' how we perceive things. A quote from page 5 of the 3.5 DMG (pg7 for the 3e version)-
"Remember, however, that your the one who has to run the adventure. That means that Anything you want to change, you can. In fact, you will often find you need to make at least small changes to fit the adventure into your own ongoing campaign and get your players into the action."
Words to live by. Note I highlighted the important parts; it does not say 'setting', it specifically says 'campaign'. That means when you purchase a setting, at that moment everything is CANON, but when you sit down to play it, it becomes YOUR CAMPAIGN. Hence, the quote above comes into play. I notice there is much confusion on these boards and many others between the the two terms, and I get the feeling that there are MANY fans of the setting that don't play, and therefore HATE home campaigns. I find that most strange.
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
This is a bit off-topic, but I don't want to open a new scroll for that...
quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayUmmm... back on topic - So the EIN have TRUE spelljamming helms, and the groundling Elves have cheap knockoffs? I like it! Maybe those could be the same as what powers the Halruuan skyships, and if so maybe thats where Evermeet gets them (or filched the tech from).
...really, helms are one hell of a mess, rules- and game- wise!
<snip>
There are several alternative approaches to helms on spelljammer.org. My favourite one is this:
http://www.spelljammer.org/ships/helms/alternate_helm.html
It takes into account several problems:
- not only magic users can man a helm
- helms can be much cheaper (though the general price level stays the same)
- variable sailing speeds
- the imo very cool "battery-effect"
I think that it's even possiple to classify the helms of the groudnling elves and halruaan "helms" in that system. Though I feel the elven helms should be "real" spelljamming helms...
I only got to look this site over today, and I have to say I'm definately going to use them! This system takes into account all of the different helm types and works with groundling aircraft as well (tactical helms). Very good find inded! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2007 18:50:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 19:23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem, is as I see it, is that many of 2e systems were a mish-mosh. In fact, like in the case of helms, there were too many SEPERATE systems for things. The worst offender I can think off was the 'fatigue' systems, wasn't there like a dozen different versions? Now 3e was supposed to clean all of that up, but unfortunately is slowly traveling down that 'optional rules' morass that got us into trouble the last time. The fact that there are at least three different feats that grant 'circle magic' is bringing back my THACO nightmares.
Now what does this have to do with the topic (or ANY topic, for that matter)? We, as players AND DMs owe it to ourselves to simplify what we read into more 'playable' terms. So even if canon says that there are a dozen different types of Helms, and Evermeet ships have another kind and Halruuan ships fly without them, etc... (Not to mention the Mystaran Skyships, but I know this is an FR board), it is easier for US to say "why don't we just say that these work the same?" Canon may say they are different, and we can tell our players they work differently (as per canon), but in our heads we KNOW that they really are all the same in function somewhat.
But they are not the same... The various spelljammer-type helms (including lifejammer and the illithid pool helms) work by drawing off either magical or life energy and converting it to an extremely fast propulsion system.
The elven starwings have an unknown power system. It could be the "discount" helm mentioned earlier, or it could be something else entirely. It does not, apparently, include the super-fast speeds of true spelljamming helms.
Halruaan skyships do not have any propulsion system. Their magic causes them to move up and down, and wind does the rest. That is not even remotely the same thing. Further, this up-and-down motion is controlled by someone weilding a rod. This person does not have the same link to or awareness of a ship that a spelljamming helmsman would.
If you trick out Halruaan skyships the same way, how do you explain them being unsuitable for combat, or rarely seen beyond Halruaa? Because the starwings are suitable for combat, and they are seen beyond Evermeet...
I see no problem with having different propulsion systems. After all, they were all developed at different times, by different peoples, with different cultures and magical backgrounds. It makes perfect sense, to me, to have things different. Saying that everyone developed the same thing make work for some, but it doesn't make sense to me and therefore violates my suspension of disbelief.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is nothing wrong with discussing 'simplifying' how we perceive things. A quote from page 5 of the 3.5 DMG (pg7 for the 3e version)-
"Remember, however, that your the one who has to run the adventure. That means that Anything you want to change, you can. In fact, you will often find you need to make at least small changes to fit the adventure into your own ongoing campaign and get your players into the action."
Words to live by. Note I highlighted the important parts; it does not say 'setting', it specifically says 'campaign'. That means when you purchase a setting, at that moment everything is CANON, but when you sit down to play it, it becomes YOUR CAMPAIGN. Hence, the quote above comes into play. I notice there is much confusion on these boards and many others between the the two terms, and I get the feeling that there are MANY fans of the setting that don't play, and therefore HATE home campaigns. I find that most strange.
And you are bringing this up for what reason? I already conceded that in your campaign, you are free to do whatever you wish. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 20:33:17
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The only point I was trying to make is that most of the people here are running an FR campaign, not a Spelljammer campaign, so over-simplifying things just to do a couple of space adventures would prove easier then trying to use all the spelljammer rules. Now if if you are running an Spelljamming campaign, then by all means you should use ALL the Spelljammer RAW.
Besides, it always more interesting to discuss things, otherwise we wouldn't need forums and we could all sit home and read our canon sourcebooks. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 05:48:56
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Hello-
I find it distinctively appropriate that the Halruan ships are basically super-levitators. It seems like a very small, but realted idea to their forebearer's creation of floating cities.
I dont remember if movement for the cities was discussed anywhere - but we do know they did move, or at least were capable of it, whether or not they did. *besides of course - the obvious Down-movement that nearly all of them went through....*
While I love the Spelljamminjg system - and love the references to it in official Realmslore - there was always one nagging problem/issue i had:
if Spelljammers were available (not even for PCs necessarilly - just in general) What is there on the other side of the planet? :) I know - *I* could make it up - but trhat would be a Lot of work! :) I tend to like to think of Spelljamming for my campaigns as pretty much a rarer occurance. but thats just me. :)
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 14:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-While I love the Spelljamminjg system - and love the references to it in official Realmslore - there was always one nagging problem/issue i had:
if Spelljammers were available (not even for PCs necessarilly - just in general) What is there on the other side of the planet? :) I know - *I* could make it up - but trhat would be a Lot of work! :) I tend to like to think of Spelljamming for my campaigns as pretty much a rarer occurance. but thats just me. :)
That's probably one of the biggest problems any DM in the Forgotten Realms faces, and which keeps most of them from using spelljamming in their games!
I have the same problem in a few sessions, and here's what I came up with as solutions/fixes:
- cloud cover on the other side of the planet:
Maybe a lot of rain forest covers the continentsso the party would have to fly really low - which means a higher risk of being discovered by some airborne monster (dragons, anyone?). For whatever reasons, whenever the party tries to go there, there is always an unbroken cloud cover... not very elegant, but it works a few times, hopefully long enough to use the 2nd fix:
- distraction:
If you can keep your players from diving below the cloud cover and give them something more interesting above (Selunes Tears, Leira, another spelljamming ship in the distance...), it's all you for not having to detail the "unknown lands".
I'm not so sure about Maztica (have to read the boxed set yet), I believe there's enough rain forest to support this theory. Plus, until a few years back there had been a antimagical shield covering the whole continent, causing spelljamming helms ships to go inactive only a few miles above the surface and crashing the ship. (see: http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/Realmspace/Toril.html)
Anchorome, on the other side... there is almost NO canon information. Everything I have is from the following ulr's:
Ed on Anchorome:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3684&whichpage=5
Eskember and the Isles of the Far Sea:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-eskember.htm
fan fiction:
http://www.masterao.com/articles/articles.asp?action=showarticle&id=169
Especially the last piece, though non-canon(1), is most useful to me: I envision Anchorome as a continent of countless small realms, none of them powerful enough to dominate the others for long - that's why they stay among themselves mostly and there is no contact with mainland faerun.
It's as well an ideal place for spelljamming crews and groups to establish small bases there, imo there is even enough unoccupied space to found your own little kingdom. ...only to be harrassed by some dragon/monster/wandering tribe that had been overseen when looking for a suitable locale in the first place!
(1) If a DM wants to use Anchorome, she HAS TO deviate from canon because of the lack of official information.
If there are enough people interested, why not start a "Project Anchorome"? Nothing definite, just a collection of ideas or suitable 3rd party products to drop there... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 18:33:05
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
I'm not so sure about Maztica (have to read the boxed set yet), I believe there's enough rain forest to support this theory. Plus, until a few years back there had been a antimagical shield covering the whole continent, causing spelljamming helms ships to go inactive only a few miles above the surface and crashing the ship. (see: http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/Realmspace/Toril.html)
I'm not up on the Maztica side of things, but I don't recall every seeing this factoid before. Can someone verify whether or not this is canon?
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 20:10:41
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I've thought about this a few times, and honestly, I don't think Spelljammers automatically equate to knowing what is on the other side of the world. Follow my reasoning here . . . most of the time, once you get a spelljammer, you would end up being indoctrinated into the "culture" one way or another . . . either you bought the thing from an Arcane, or you ran into someone that is versed in Spelljamming, or you found a wreck that is still flyable, and a captain's log, so you get some of the basics.
The "basics" will include where ports are that are used to dealing with spelljammers, such as Waterdeep, as well as ports in space and what lies out there. You may fly to Wa or Shou Lung, because the charts show you how to get there, but if you try to chart your own path from point A to point B, you likely have to fly fairly low and a bit slower than you normally would, and likely would attract a lot of attention, from all sorts of thigns (wizards, dragons, elementals, etc.) that you normally wouldn't have to deal with.
Most of the places that have spelljamming ports, or that would be well mapped enough to find, would be already known (Maztica, Zhakara, Kara-Tur). Yes, I know that Maztica was relatively recently "discovered" but follow my logic here.
If you fly too low you are more or less subject to the same issues you would have sailing, flying on a dragon, etc., including hostile monsters, storms, land formations and the like. If you fly high enough to where you can see where a continent "should" be, you can pick a spot and dive towards it, but then you only see the portion of the continent you "zoomed in" on.
Now, think of it this way. If Faerun were unknown, and you zoomed in on, say, Anauroch, or the High Forest, or the Great Glacier, or the High Moor, how accurate of a picture of Faerun would you have? Yeah, if you follow the coastline of the Sword Coast you might find Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep, but what if the continent you decided to check in on just happened to not have a port on the side you decided to check?
I would venture to say that the one could assume that the reason that we do know the general size, shape, and location of the other continents, as shown in the picture in the FRCS (and the old Forgotten Realms Atlas program) is because spelljammers and the like might have viewed them. But even if you investigated another continent, it is possible that you just never saw were most of the settlements were. To get back to my Maztica example, spelljammers could have flown over and never found a city or a pyramid, and just figured the place was all forests and deserts.
Now, picture this scenario. You get in your brand new tradesmen, and you decide to explore a new continent. You fly over it, and you see forests, and plains, and you see a herd of dinosaurs stampeding along, and at first you think its because of your tradesmen ship, until you notice another shadow, one with large wings and a long tail swooping down from the sky . . . and you get to see how well a spelljamming ship can do against Imvaernarho in his hunting ground. The point being that each continent likely has its own dangers that might have stifled any potential secret stealers that come there.
In some cases, spelljammers that did find there way somewhere notable might never have reported it elsewere. There might be Netherese Enclaves on other continents, that gave up on their more extreem magic experiments when Karus' Folly occured, and have no portals or other means back to Faerun, but work in a manner not unlike the Netherese survivor states these days. There might be an city of Imaskari on another continent with powerful wards in place that blow any spelljammer out of the sky that gets near enough to dicern its location.
Finally, spacefaring races tend to not really care much about what is on a given planet that doesn't relate to spelljamming. The Elven Imperial Navy really only cares about Evermeet, and even other elven settlements are a bit backwards to them. They may keep an eye out for Waterdeep, Calimshan, Cormyr (since they are suppose to have a few ships), Shou Lung, and Wa, but its more a matter of knowing if the humans are "getting into trouble." The point being, if you are an elf and you learn about spelljamming, and you end up falling in with the EIN, then you likely aren't going to do much continental exploring. And what new dwarf spelljammer is going to waste time scrounging unknown other continents when dwarven wildspace prospectors let him know what he can find in various asteroids and moons.
We know the Arcane are concerned about how much attention they recieve, and that they don't sell to nations that will start overt wars with other nations with them, not out of any sense of morality, but basically to keep from upsetting the Powers that Be in a given Crystal Sphere. They may also keep such nations from buying spelljamming helms for the express purpose of colonizing new lands that they otherwise wouldn't reach. They may also, out of respect for local Powers, "repo" helms from explorers that find out things about other continents that the Powers don't want known, or to keep from inspiring the "wrong kind" of exploration. The Arcane, for example, might be wary of making sea travel irrelevant due to the wishes of Umberlee and Valkur, and they might want exploration to be more difficult to appease Shaundakul.
Just a few thoughts on the subject. I could be wrong, but these are some points I have thought of over the years.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 23:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
I'm not so sure about Maztica (have to read the boxed set yet), I believe there's enough rain forest to support this theory. Plus, until a few years back there had been a antimagical shield covering the whole continent, causing spelljamming helms ships to go inactive only a few miles above the surface and crashing the ship. (see: http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/Realmspace/Toril.html)
I'm not up on the Maztica side of things, but I don't recall every seeing this factoid before. Can someone verify whether or not this is canon?
I'm not altogether clear on my Maztican lore either, but this doesn't sound familiar. And the Maztica boxed set notes spelljammer activity at places around the region, so...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 23:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I've thought about this a few times, and honestly, I don't think Spelljammers automatically equate to knowing what is on the other side of the world. Follow my reasoning here . . . most of the time, once you get a spelljammer, you would end up being indoctrinated into the "culture" one way or another . . . either you bought the thing from an Arcane, or you ran into someone that is versed in Spelljamming, or you found a wreck that is still flyable, and a captain's log, so you get some of the basics.
[...]
Just a few thoughts on the subject. I could be wrong, but these are some points I have thought of over the years.
I like where you're going with this, Knight. Very interesting -- and it includes all the right stops in the Realmslore. 
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 23:44:13
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And I've thought about this somewhat myself...
Consider that most certainly, elven spelljammers dispatched from Evermeet, or even those of the Shou Imperial Fleet, have likely, from time to time, noted the existence of these "unknown lands." And visitors from other Crystal Spheres have likely shared their own celestial observations with those Realms cultures they visit (for a price)... observations made during a spelljammer's descent to the surface of Toril. These may not be entirely trustworthy however, and may be nothing more than fanciful interpretations made by "respected spelljamming scholars" looking to make a quick gold-piece by selling "authentic" Torilian maps they've made on sojourns around Toril itself, to gullible inhabitants of the Realms or elsewhere.
However, the question remains about how accessible these studies made by either the casual celestial observer, the elves of Evermeet, or the explorers from Shou Lung, would be to outsiders. I sincerely doubt such knowledge would be wide-spread -- especially when you consider what either the elves or the Shou are usually like when it comes to sharing most types of knowledge with any outsiders.
As well, there is the supposed accuracy of these observations to consider. It's highly likely that spelljammers travelling to and from Toril have indeed noticed these other continents on particular occasions... however, unless these spelljammers have been assigned to explore them, or have specific interests with them, these "unknown lands" probably still exist, largely, as nothing more than vague interpretations, redefined constantly over many years, on a "scholar's map" much as the FRCS notes.
Indeed. Aside from a few brief notes or sketches found on incomplete or archaic maps stored in places of knowledge, such as Candlekeep for example, expert knowledge regarding these "unknown lands" is likely to be still relatively limited to a select number of explorers/enterprising individuals who have either been lucky enough to see, briefly visit, or learn about them.
I think it would be poor to assume, however, that just because Realms-based cultures who have access to spelljammers, or who are active in spelljamming-capable communities, are going to want to explore Toril using spelljammers. To date, we haven't seen much indication of that in the Realmslore beyond what's been, briefly, stated with regard to the limited spelljamming activities of both the elves of Evermeet and the Shou. There simply doesn't appear to be enough cultural impetus among the varied lands of Faerun for most explorers to "want" to travel beyond the continent itself and map lands that are supposedly "unknown." The average Realmsian, afterall, has enough trouble just trying to learn a little about their own region (facts that are immediately important and/or necessary for their daily lives), let alone about the rest of the surrounding Realms, to say nothing about them also having to worry about what strange and exotic lands lay beyond their city's walls.
Consider also, that Faerun, the Hordelands, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara itself, aren't "completely" known lands either. There is still plenty waiting to be discovered by intrepid Realmsian explorers throughout Faerun, as well as the Hordelands, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. There's also Maztica, still a relatively unknown land for the most part, and largely because there's only been limited interest from the lands of Faerun, and then, mainly from those only on the western coast -- such as Amn for example. Beyond that, few cities, towns, or power groups active in the Realms have much interest in Maztica, not when they have their own needs, in the Realms, to attend to.
I'd imagine that a similar mindset, concerning lands beyond Faerun, or even Maztica itself, still exists... even given the "relative" easy of spelljamming and what it can mean for exploring the rest of Toril.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 00:03:24
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Good points all, Sage, and a few more that I didn's quite get to in mine (like I haven't rambled enough).
What we have heard about areas that are "high traffic" are all relative. Given that the number of adventurers that have actually made contact with Arcane is likely an increadibly small percent of the population, and that a nation like Cormyr, which was, at least until Nalavara's attacks (and still is for the most part), a wealthy nations, its entirely possible that even a "spelljamming port" like Waterdeep doesn't see more than a handful of spelljamming ships per season.
They are notable because they bring in goods and items not available on most ships, and because they likely have a lot of free flowing gold on them, especially compared with "common" trade ships.
But if you throw the relative rarity of the ships into the mix, out of a handful of ships, how many actually do go to other continents? How many would even think about it, especially with the expanse of Wildspace to explore?
By which I mean that if a Spelljammer were made available to someone from Faerun, I think they may be more likely to explore Faerun than look for new continents, if they didn't just fly out into Wildspace. I also have the anecdotal evidence of my players to use. I had a couple of campaigns in 2nd edition where the players gained access to spelljamming helms, and most of the time travel on Toril was to get from point A to point B in Faerun more quickly, or to go completely out into spelljamming mode and explore Wildspace. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 00:26:49
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| It's also possible that the other continents remain ignored because they are unpopulated and/or have as yet failed to reveal anything of great interest, like certain natural resources. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 09:27:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And I've thought about this somewhat myself...
[snip]
However, the question remains about how accessible these studies made by either the casual celestial observer, the elves of Evermeet, or the explorers from Shou Lung, would be to outsiders. I sincerely doubt such knowledge would be wide-spread -- especially when you consider what either the elves or the Shou are usually like when it comes to sharing most types of knowledge with any outsiders.
As well, there is the supposed accuracy of these observations to consider. It's highly likely that spelljammers travelling to and from Toril have indeed noticed these other continents on particular occasions... however, unless these spelljammers have been assigned to explore them, or have specific interests with them, these "unknown lands" probably still exist, largely, as nothing more than vague interpretations, redefined constantly over many years, on a "scholar's map" much as the FRCS notes.
(emphasis by me)
Sage, as far as I remember the Shou ARE explorers, and thorough explorers. I didn't read any canon, but here is what I found in Paul Westermeyers "Realmspace" which updates the book written by Slade (sadly, one of the worst books ever written on spelljamming or the realms.  ). I don't know how much of it is canon and which parts are added by Paul, though...
"The vast empire of Shou Lung is undoubtably the most powerful nation on the face of Toril. With an immense population, vast territory, and governed by an efficient and generally honest bureacracy the Shou could, with a great deal of effort, come to completely dominate the planet. That they do not is due to cultural rather then military or economic factors. The Shou have been expansionistic in the past, but the current emperor finds more pleasure in knowledge and culture then military conquest. This tendancy has been reinforced by the recent Horde invasion, which devastated many of the northwestern provinces, decimated the armed forces, and left the upper ranks of the Mandarinate in a leaderless shambles. The nation is thus still recovering from the upheavals. So, while this nation controls the largest military fleet in Realmspace (45 War Dragons) those vessels are employed in a strictly defensive role, rooting out pirates and acting as a counter to the fleets of Wa and the Elves.
Shou Lung remains a fairly popular destination within Realmspace. The popultion is civilized, enlightened, and spelljammer aware. The taxes are (mostly) reasonable and laws concerning spelljamming vessels follow common sense guidelines (flying over cities at low altitude is prohibitted, for instance). The nation's primary port, Karatin, is as welcoming to spelljammers as it is to any other foriegn trade.
[snip]
The dragonships of the Ministry of War and the Ministry of Glorious Flight are the official representatives of the Shou in Realmspace, but there are many nonofficial vessels as well. The Order of the Dragon (a monastery devoted to the Path and the Emperor) sponsored several vessels, as have several of the richest noble houses. The Society of the Purple Lotus, a group of noble artists, has also sponsored several dragonships. This is disturbing to some, as it is rumored that this group of decadent, languid nobles is secretly a group dedicated to restoring the power of the nobles and destroying that of the bureaucracy. "
and
"As is mentioned every time a dragonship is described, the Shou take a practical approach to spelljamming. Unlike most groundling nations, they purposely build their vessels for wildspace. Indeed, a Shou dragonship is a solid ship by any standard. Still, the Shou are not a major political presence outside of Realmspace because they concentrate their energies on exploration and the hunt for curiosities. Shou traders are not unknown, but they are few and far between. The majority of Shou vessels are owned by the Imperial government(...)"
It seems that the Shou DO focus on exploration, but are pretty much NOT interested in the rest of the planet of Toril itself- which seems to include Maztica, Anchorome and... Osse (wasn't there an Australia-like planet somewhere down under?).
My interpretation (i.e. how I will handle it in my campaign, if it ever comes to that): they DID start with exploring the several "Terrae Incognitae" of Toril, but not with enough care to turn up something that held their interest. Since they are not expansionistic, the new continents were simply not worth their time and so they turned their interest to the star. Of course that's only a generalisation; there may of course be individual groups who are interested in the rest of Toril.
...which all adds up to a quite DM-friendly situation:
- there may be maps somewhere out there,
- some of them might even be of above-average accuracy (but still not like a map of the heartlands!)
- there may be small groups who did "colonise" the unknown continents, but only on a very small scale
- there may be individuals or groups on Faerun (and the East) who are using their spelljamming vessels for "planetary hopping"
...but in general, spelljamming is nothing that has a big "public presence" - and thus, can be ignored. |
Edited by - tauster on 07 Feb 2007 09:38:53 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 10:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
What we have heard about areas that are "high traffic" are all relative. Given that the number of adventurers that have actually made contact with Arcane is likely an increadibly small percent of the population, and that a nation like Cormyr, which was, at least until Nalavara's attacks (and still is for the most part), a wealthy nations, its entirely possible that even a "spelljamming port" like Waterdeep doesn't see more than a handful of spelljamming ships per season.
They are notable because they bring in goods and items not available on most ships, and because they likely have a lot of free flowing gold on them, especially compared with "common" trade ships.
I don't think a large number of people is needed to get a nation more spelljamming-aware. All you need is
- A number of trading ships who bring in "exotic goods from the stars". These items will most certainly fetch higher prizes in the market than native products - and of course, the owner will draw the wrath of the local merchants (guilds, anyone? ). (1)
- A number of public appearances made by a spelljammer, like flying a ship over the city in the open. I can imagine quite a few players who would want that - just to brag. Or maybe they have to flee the city after some incident (see footnote (1) for inspiration of what might happen).
(1) On the other side, it's not very clever to make it public that your vessel is able to fly - and even fly to the stars! I have a hard time imagining how this made public will NOT create a rush of thieving attempts. The whole port will be practically overrun by hastily hired mercenary, assassins and other folk all aiming to capture the flying ship...
quote:
But if you throw the relative rarity of the ships into the mix, out of a handful of ships, how many actually do go to other continents? How many would even think about it, especially with the expanse of Wildspace to explore?
By which I mean that if a Spelljammer were made available to someone from Faerun, I think they may be more likely to explore Faerun than look for new continents, if they didn't just fly out into Wildspace. I also have the anecdotal evidence of my players to use. I had a couple of campaigns in 2nd edition where the players gained access to spelljamming helms, and most of the time travel on Toril was to get from point A to point B in Faerun more quickly, or to go completely out into spelljamming mode and explore Wildspace.
I think the same. My players, who found an old Netherese wreckboat (a small shuttle-type ship, like the shuttles on the enterprise) with a minor helm, immediately used it to travel faster from impiltur back to the silver marshes, from there to waterdeep, back to impiltur, and down to halruaa (though they hid the ship outside the country's border and traveled in by wagon). At first, they didn't even think of exploring the stars - neither in character nor out of character! They sooo much enjoyed the ease and speed of travel...
Btw: Their characters didn't even discover that the ship can leave the atmosphere of Toril, or didn't even think in this direction! It is just outside of their characters framework, and the players didn't metagame.
On a more general ground: I think it makes more sense to a Faerunian "groundling" who gets his hands on a spelljammer to use it as a faster means of transportation on the continent he (or she) knows than to go exploring the stars. They might have some starcharts (2), but they don't know what kind of dangers lurk in wildspace, what power groups, monsters, conditions (air, anyone?) natural hazards, etc...
As well, the groundling will hardly know how to make a profit in wildspace: he doesn't know which goods (and where!) are cheap to buy and higher to sell, the terms and conditions of wildspace trade, etc.
And much of the same applies to other continents: OK, you won't get lost as quickly and easily as in wildspace, but you have absolutely NO clue what you'll find there, where to trade and with whom, etc.
The "only" logical reasoning for an individual with a minimum of common sense (I know: this excludes most adventuring parties!) will stay on Faerun, where all these things are known or can be gleaned.
(2) But how to read them and calculate a course - that's a totally different question! Wildspace is V A S T - only one small error in your calculation and you end up in the middle of nowhere, with the return trip being doubly hard to calculate (you first have to discover and correct your error, then accurately calculate your way back home). Everyone who recognises on a star chart that there are HUGE distances involved will think twice about that.
...btw: I absolutely LOVE this scroll! There are sooo many implications of combining the two settings; that's why it is so damn hard to include them properly without losing the flair of the realms, so all these ideas and rasonings here help me to answer the questions my players will come up with (like the foreign continents). |
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Matan Thunder
Acolyte
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 02:54:26
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While I am joining this discussion late I do have a few questions and additions that haven't been mentioned yet.
1) With the Tsunami ships of the Shou.....aren't the Ki Helms a product of the Shou Celestial R&D. That would keep the Arcane out of that particular mix.
2) There is a rare little helm that no one has mentioned that is out of the hands of the Arcane...that is Ultimate Helms and their associated magic items. This could allow almost any farmer (sorry Teldin) capable of Jamming.
3) While the continent of Maztica is a recent find for Toril (or it was in my day). The fact remains that any jammer out there can see the continent, its relative sparse populations, and would have served as a great base of operation and merhcantilism.
4) Besides spelljammers there are the Halaruu, and.....there are (from Mystara I know) the Princess Arks flight systems that incorporate the spirit of a creature called a "Sky Wyrm" to form a sentient ship, and then you have the forces of the Heldonic space faring people who have magic engines vaguely like the Halaruuan ships.
I'm sure there are others out there, I just wanted to relate that there are other spacefaring ships out there, and other motive forces, so those nasty ol' Arcane and their monopoly shouldn't styme space flight.....darned hypocritical blue faced race of panzies, won't sell me a helm will they......I will tell the universe where to buy better flight technology......with spinner hubs and neon space panels that light up with your name ........mmmmmmmmmmuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmbbbbbbbbblllllllleeeee!
Later
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Turn them all into rainbow colored mushrooms and drop them from 300' to the tune from the "Anvil Chorus". |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2007 : 16:37:55
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<<The fact that there are at least three different feats that grant 'circle magic' is bringing back my THACO nightmares.>>
I agree with your sentiments about the developers heading down a path of complexity that is unneeded. I loved Complete Arcane. Complete Mage opened up a world of unbalanced bugs for me, much as many of the spells in the spell compendium are unbalanced. However, this one little piece I feel like I should say something on. The working of magic with multiple individuals has so many "specialties" that can go along with it, and as a result, I like this mechanic that there are different "regional" feats to open up access to circle magic. For instance, I can see the witches of Rashemen developing a form of circle magic in which they better develop scrying magics or work together to counter powerful magics(and I've written up some feats, which I hopefully have around here somewhere). The Thayans however have several connotations which show them as using their circles effectively on the battlefield, to control gem golems, or to bring into effect a powerful magic effect. There has never been anything explicitly said that the Halruaans had extensive knowledge of working together magically, but I can see them possibly being able to do things like speed up divinations like legend lore. By having these separate "traditions" of circle magic, you can really define the magical "influence" of a country. At its base, they can all have the same "circle magic", but how they utilize it can be VASTLY different.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Matan Thunder
Acolyte
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2007 : 06:06:48
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Tap....tap....tap....er...
Fellow poster are you awake???? I thought this was the spelljammer thread. I think you are looking for that primal esence thread.
Later
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Turn them all into rainbow colored mushrooms and drop them from 300' to the tune from the "Anvil Chorus". |
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Halruaan Skyships vs. Spelljammers
