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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 19:58:03
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A long time after reading the other books of the series, I finally read Thornold. I remember many bad critics about that book, mainly targeted at Elaine's description of Tyr's Paladins.
Surprisingly, I definitely appreciated it, even if I count myself in the "tired of lawful-stupid point of view" gang.
Of course, even with the feat created by E. Boyd in CoS, the fact that no one has discovered Gareth's lies is a bit unbelievable.
However, the picture of the young paladin first confronted with his code of ethos was quite enjoyable. IMHO, the fact that the order is racist (pro-human) and that he was raised from a young age in the order explain a good part of his behaviour without the need to see him more LN than LG. (The fact that the order's goal is directly linked with the protection a bloodline, not something good in itself, is the problem)
So what are you views on this controversial book?
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 20:17:21
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I enjoyed the book, although you brought up some good points of criticism.
What I liked most about the book was the characters and their relationships with each other (and their emotions regarding said relationships). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 20:39:43
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I similarly enjoyed the book and was quite surprised to learn about all the criticism towards it and Tyr's Paladins. It never even crossed my mind that Gareth should have been discovered. Heck, he earned respect by his actions and is a living legend among the order. And seeing as he's not eating babies or calling for the slaughter of innocents, why would junior Paladins question his requests (which from what I saw in the book, seemed for the most part reasonable.) On the flip side, there were a few lines where Algorind was dubious about Gareth's tone and manner, etc. (Just after they got to Summit Hall) Of course, Sir Gareth dealt with that by having Algorind declared a traitor.
I thoroughly enjoyed the book. You mentioned the young Paladin, Algorind, dealing with his orders ethos as a good point, and I agree. I found that bit highly interesting. The issues of family that got brought up were very good, and nice to see in a fantasy book. |
Edited by - Uzzy on 08 Dec 2006 20:43:07 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 22:25:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I similarly enjoyed the book and was quite surprised to learn about all the criticism towards it and Tyr's Paladins. It never even crossed my mind that Gareth should have been discovered. Heck, he earned respect by his actions and is a living legend among the order. And seeing as he's not eating babies or calling for the slaughter of innocents, why would junior Paladins question his requests (which from what I saw in the book, seemed for the most part reasonable.) On the flip side, there were a few lines where Algorind was dubious about Gareth's tone and manner, etc. (Just after they got to Summit Hall) Of course, Sir Gareth dealt with that by having Algorind declared a traitor.
For Gareth, I think that Piergeiron should have done something. Despite the fact that he's a Tyr's Paladin too, he's not in the order and he's the Open Lord. (Of course in the novel, we never know if Algorind took the decision to keep for himself his suspicions about Gareth).
After all these years (by 1374, Gareth is still in the order by CoS) maybe Tyr should have given a "manifestion" to some young paladin to find the "evil inside" no ? |
Edited by - Skeptic on 08 Dec 2006 22:27:28 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 23:03:20
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quote:
For Gareth, I think that Piergeiron should have done something. Despite the fact that he's a Tyr's Paladin too, he's not in the order and he's the Open Lord. (Of course in the novel, we never know if Algorind took the decision to keep for himself his suspicions about Gareth).
Hmm. Fair point. If Piergeiron learnt about the suspicions, then perhaps he would have done something. However, as I mentioned before, Sir Gareth would appear to be quite a reputable figure with a very good reputation. A young Paladin's slight suspicions would have to go up against that. With Sir Gareth even being able to convince himself that he is doing Tyr's work, even when he is doing evil, it would be hard to actually catch him in a lie. It's noted that he doesn't actually lie, just leaves out relevant information.
As for divine intervention, well, that's always possible, I guess. If a Paladin had such a vision, then perhaps he would talk to the senior members of the order about it, which include Sir Gareth. Again, it's his reputation that means the members of the order trust him. After all, he gave up his arm in the defence of Hronrulf.
Perhaps we will see more of this in the forthcoming short story in the Best of EC?  |
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mavericace
Seeker
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 01:10:35
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| I enjoyed the book but I think that at some point one of the other Paladins would have used the so called "Paladin sight" in the presance of Gareth and found out that he was not a noble man. Also I think it would be kind of odd that Gareth never used his Paladin abilities and the other Paladins would grow suspicious. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 01:33:18
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quote:
Originally posted by mavericace
I enjoyed the book but I think that at some point one of the other Paladins would have used the so called "Paladin sight" in the presance of Gareth and found out that he was not a noble man. Also I think it would be kind of odd that Gareth never used his Paladin abilities and the other Paladins would grow suspicious.
Check the feat E. Boyd created in CoS to explain his ability to avoid being dected by the "detect evil" ability of the Paladin.
Also, it's not only because of his missing arm that he retired of "active paladin life", his lost of abilities is better masked if he only do paper work. |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 01:33:19
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quote:
Originally posted by mavericace
I enjoyed the book but I think that at some point one of the other Paladins would have used the so called "Paladin sight" in the presance of Gareth and found out that he was not a noble man. Also I think it would be kind of odd that Gareth never used his Paladin abilities and the other Paladins would grow suspicious.
Hello-
This solution, as it were - makes sense - but I'm not inclined to think that it would happen. Gareth seems to have a 'desk job' - so his main 'paladin ability' is oratory in nature - there is not much call ofr detecting evil amongst the good, nor of laying on hands. I'm not even sure that there would be a noticable outward sign that he was using the former power, so he could claim to be I suppose. So - I doubt that others would grow suspicious that he was not using his paladin-ish powers, as the need for them is not there.
I somewhat like the idea of a divine vision being given to one of the newer paladins. Certainly something somewhat cryptic... and it would be something that they would have to 'figure out' a lot of. Even were they fairly sure that it was indeed a true vision - they wouldl have issues of having self-doubt - who would want to question someone is Gareth's position? It might be an interesting story if there had been such a paladin - but they could nolt bear to investigate or beleive in the vision - and now is faced with not being a paladin themselves - and possibly not knowing the exact reason why.... Truly an interesting idea for a plot hook for a campaign, if you ask me!
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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mavericace
Seeker
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 04:06:09
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| Well I have yet to read CoS so maybe this will shed a bit more light on this for me. Thanks for the info. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 04:13:17
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| All I can say is that I am definately interested to see what is going on in Elaine's short story for her new collection . . . then again, I'm just pumped for this to come out anyway. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 13:54:06
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Envision this scenario: conservative Republicans are suddenly imbued with the power to sense the political leanings of any American. They need only bring to mind an image of Ann Coulter and murmur a few lines from the Federalist Papers.
With me so far?
Imagine that several of these Republicans were granted a brief audience with former President Reagan, in a context well outside of the political arena--his ranch, maybe--and after Alzeimers had taken a considerable toll on his mind. These Republicans would be respectful and perhaps a little awed. They would carefully avoid looking too closely at anything that seemed to connect with his illness. Their impulse would probably be to avert their eyes from anything that might be perceived as a weakness on the part of one of their heroes. What they would NOT do is invoke Ann Coulter and cast the FP spell to make sure that Mr. Reagan remained free of liberal leanings.
That's essentially the situation that Sir Gareth was in for many years. His interactions with other paladins were infrequent and brief. He was revered for his past heroics, and respected for his continued service at his "desk job." And since the financial affairs of the Knight of Samular seemed to be in very good order (Sir Gareth was pulling down enough fees from his illicit activities to easily make up anything he might be skimming or using for payoffs) the paladins had no reason to scrutinize him.
Also consider that paladins tend to die young. (According to the old, second edition Complete Book of Paladins, few lived to the age of thirty.) There aren't many people around who knew Gareth back in his righteous youth, so people who might perceive subtle changes are few and far between. To most living paladins, Sir Gareth is something of a legend. People tend to see what they expect to see. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 16:23:19
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Elaine,
Your example Republican example just creeps me out. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36974 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 16:57:51
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| Something I was thinking was that Tyr may still have plans for Sir Gareth, and that's why his loss of paladinhood has yet to be revealed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 17:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Something I was thinking was that Tyr may still have plans for Sir Gareth, and that's why his loss of paladinhood has yet to be revealed.
Gareth's redemption, a nice story title  |
Edited by - Skeptic on 09 Dec 2006 17:47:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36974 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 19:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Something I was thinking was that Tyr may still have plans for Sir Gareth, and that's why his loss of paladinhood has yet to be revealed.
Gareth's redemption, a nice story title
Actually, it doesn't even have to be a redemption. Sure, a redemption (either full, returning to paladinhood, or partial, doing something to return to being a good guy) is possible, but there are other options. Perhaps Gareth winds up inspiring a young paladin who goes on to do great deeds. Maybe he knows one thing that can save the order, at some point in the future. Maybe he winds up at the center of a crisis that reforges the order into something stronger. And so on... There are a lot of options. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 15:55:12
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| I wonder... If Algorind, to defend himself from Gareth's accusations, claims that Gareth is a false paladin and challenges him to manifest a paladin ability he certainly should have, like lay on hands, and then shows that he (Algorind) does still have that ability whereas Gareth doesn't, what would other paladins think? Would they acknowledge that Gareth has fallen out of Tyr's favor, or would they come up with excuses (or believe those Gareth would almost certainly make)? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36974 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 16:02:07
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| I think Gareth is enough of a political animal to avoid being put on the spot like that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 01:27:41
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| I enjoy all of Elaine's writing that I've read, Songs and Swords is my favourite Realms series, and this includes Thornhold. I like the characters and the interplay between them, my main grip is there are too many loose ends (I understand why), but hopefully some of these might get addressed in Elaine's future work. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2012 : 18:13:45
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Probably not the right thread for this, but since this was only one of two threads where it was mentioned (I did a search), and the other had no info either.....
What is Summit Hall?
What about Taskerleigh? (the other thread mentioned it)
What and where is it? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 01:21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Probably not the right thread for this, but since this was only one of two threads where it was mentioned (I did a search), and the other had no info either.....
What is Summit Hall?
What about Taskerleigh? (the other thread mentioned it)
What and where is it?
Summit Hall is in Sumber and after Bronwyn took over management of Thornhold, stronghold of the Knights of Samular.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 01:25:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Probably not the right thread for this, but since this was only one of two threads where it was mentioned (I did a search), and the other had no info either.....
What is Summit Hall?
What about Taskerleigh? (the other thread mentioned it)
What and where is it?
Taskerleigh......I remember vaguely from Elfsong, but details are escaping me.
Mustbe time for are-read! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 16:48:52
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I knew where Summit Hall was; its on the FRIA map. I need to know what it is. A hall? A ruin? A keep? etc, etc...
I don't even know if Taskerleigh was in this book - it was mentioned alongside Thornhold and Summit Hall in the other post (one asking Eric Boyd about CoS' contents) I read.
I use different icons for different things, and I place no locale on my maps until I know everything about it.
Thanks for the response Red Walker. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Thornhold (Spoiler inside)
