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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 21:14:52
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So I'm looking for some info form WoTC writers and designers. With the upcoming release of two hardcover Realms novels I am noticing that WoTC is still grossly overcharging for the eBook version of the novels. Is there any plans to add extra material to justify the more than doubled price from their normal eBooks? I am really looking forward to both of these novels but I can't justify paying that much extra for nothing.
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 22:09:38
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| Which books? If the authors visit Candlekeep, they may be able to tell you. The rest of us novelists have no way of knowing what's up with some other guy's book. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 22:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Which books? If the authors visit Candlekeep, they may be able to tell you. The rest of us novelists have no way of knowing what's up with some other guy's book.
Well, Charon's Claw and Elminster Enraged. I don't believe I've ever seen either authors frequent here. But I know The Hooded One serves as his proxy. I just put out a general call just in case someone knew anything. I want to support WoTC and the Realms in general. I just don't want to support unfair pricing practices. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 23:31:51
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| Bob's got his own site with message boards. You could try asking him there. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 23:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Bob's got his own site with message boards. You could try asking him there.
Good idea! |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 03:58:22
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| Yeah, that is a little ridiculous. In my mind, it seems more logical to spend actual hardcover price on an actual hardcover, rather than the inflated ebook price on an ebook (even if it's cheaper than the hardcover). The last RAS was the same thing as charon's claw price-wise, and I ended up spending I think ten bucks more on the actual book than if I had bought the ebook, it just seemed like well hell, if I'm going to be spending more money than I should be on the book, I might as well get a real book. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 06:29:26
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After my last drunken tirade, I dare not comment, other than to appeal, most vehemently, to this money-grubbing practice. E-books are driving people away, not seducing them with lower prices and convenience.
edit: So many apologies for voicing the truth of the matter. It sucks to be an author in these tremulous days. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 21 Jul 2012 06:41:41 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 16:09:05
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| ESdB and Elaine have been kind enough to comment upon this topic for us. Their advice, flood WotC's inbox with your outrage. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 21 Jul 2012 16:09:30 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2012 : 02:12:29
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| I love what Elaine is doing with her new eBoks, both in content and fair pricing! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 00:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
ESdB and Elaine have been kind enough to comment upon this topic for us. Their advice, flood WotC's inbox with your outrage.
Actually, I never have, nor will I ever, suggest that readers "flood WotC's inbox with...outrage." Please be careful about attributing comments to people who never made them.
There's nothing wrong with letting a company know what products you want to buy, in what format, and at what price. But if you write or email WotC, I would advise keeping it short, civil, and focused. If you live in Austria and can't buy Forgotten Realms eBooks, let WotC know they're losing sales. If you believe the hardcover eBook prices are too high, tell them you will a) not be purchasing this book because of the price or b) waiting for the paperback and/or the correspondingly lower eBook price. This is valuable information to have. Indignant rants? Not so much. People are more likely to listen to a calm voice.
I suspect it's going to take quite a while before eBook pricing settles down, and there will ever be an agreement between the "teh informationz wants to be FREE!" proponents and people who make their livelihood in publishing. For what it's worth, here's my opinion on the matter.
Books are released in hardcover because publishers believe readers are willing to pay more for a particular story. When a book is simultaneously released in hardcover and eBook format, the eBook pricing will reflect the perceived value of that story. When the novel is released as a mass market paperback reprint, the cost of the eBook will also drop.
Why?
Last year eBook sales by traditional publishers more than doubled, going from over $800 million to over $2 billion. As eBook sales take a larger slice of the pie, they also need to cover a corresponding share of the production costs. An eBook is NOT just a collection of zeros and ones. It's a story, and that story has value.
Last week I bought a copy of Chuck Wendig's BLACKBIRDS for my Nook for a little over $6 and I thought the reading experience was worth every penny. There are a few authors whose work I follow so avidly that I'm willing to buy their novels, in hardcover, on the day of release. These days, I pre-order those books, and they magically appear in my Nook library on release day. The price for the eBook versions of these hardcover releases usually ranges from $9.99 to $14.99. This is less expensive than the hardcover, and it's--wait for it--THE SAME STORY.
I understand that people have strong preference when it comes to the delivery system. Some people collect hardcovers and are pissed off by trade paperbacks and original mass market paperback releases. Some only want paperbacks and view hardcovers as an unnecessary money-grab by greedy publishers and authors. Some people don't want to read ebooks, other love their e-Readers. Important, yes, but let's not forget that the story itself HAS VALUE.
I've already posted about the costs involved in writing, editing, and distributing an eBook, so I won't go into that again. Creating and producing a novel requires a considerable amount of effort, expertise, and expense. As the ratio of book sales shifts from mostly print to mostly eBook--and that is coming--eBook pricing is going to reflect the shift.
That said, I firmly believe that eBooks should be priced lower than print books, as they do not require printing, shipping, and warehousing. But what constitutes a fair eBook price? That's a complex question, one that doesn't have a quick and easy answer. And frankly, today's answers probably won't apply next week.
Take, for example, the $.99 eBook. Some authors who had either had unpublished series ready to be made into ebooks or who are fast and prolific writers sold the first book as a loss leader to build a readership. This worked exceeding well--for the first wave of writers who tried it. Then the market was flooded by $.99 novels written by people who hoped to become the next Amanda Hockings. After a while, low pricing developed a stigma. A lot of people assume that you get what you pay for, so a too-low price can actually hurt sales. The current "sweet spot" for self-publishing authors has shifted to $4.99. Less than that, and many readers assume it's not worth reading. Much more, and it's no longer an easy impulse purchase.
It's going to take a while to sort all this out. Disruptive technology...disrupts. So by all means, tell the folks at WotC what you'd like to see in terms of availablility, format, and pricing, but keep in mind that a $.99 eBook might not be possible. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 24 Jul 2012 00:35:44 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 00:32:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I love what Elaine is doing with her new eBooks, both in content and fair pricing!
Thanks, Red Walker.
Since I started the Tales of Sevrin series, pricing trends have shifted considerably.
When I published the first story, readers expected full-length novels for the price, which I've see-sawed back and forth from $.99 to $1.99. These days, established writers are selling single short stories for $1.99. Novellas much shorter than Honor Among Thieves (which weighs in at over 40K words) are usually priced at $2.99. So at $1.99, my eBook originals are priced well below the current market trends. As I mentioned above, this might actually work against me. People assume that you get what you pay for.
Later this week I'll be uploading the Thorn Trilogy omnibus, which will top 100K words and will be priced around $4.99. That's consistent with the market, and I think it's a fair price. Will people think the story itself is worth purchasing and reading? Time will tell, and other songs from the same album. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 00:46:51
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What Elaine said. I as well have never said "flood WotC with your outrage." The closest I've come to that is saying that readers who have feedback should direct it toward those who can actually make a difference, i.e., WotC.
I absolutely do not advocate or condone being uncivil or disrespectful. Doing so will only get you ignored and/or piss off people I know and work with. Why would I want that? I want us all to get what we want, whether it's paper copies, print on demand, ebooks with comfortable price points, more books, or just a restful afternoon without angry emails.
Her comments on the pricing situation are also right on. Savvy lady, that Elaine Cunningham. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 02:08:57
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Price isn't the issue for me, I just want my traditional, good old fashionned paper book, and I'm willing to pay a fair price for it.
If I had the choice between a free ebook and a 20$ paperback novel from Erik, Elaine, Ed, and almost all other FR authors, I'll take the book any day of the week. It is a pleasure to pay for your stories, and I like to have a reminder of it more physical than disk space and an icon.
But I have expressed my take on electronic-format-only policy in 2 other scrolls, so I won't start again here. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 04:00:25
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| My apologies to both ESdB and Elaine. I was paraphrasing. MY words, not theirs. Obviously, polite and respectful is the tact to take when voicing such concerns. Forgive my crass shorthand, send your questions and comments to the publisher (Outrage can be expressed both politely and effectively, and that was my meaning). I did not mean to put words in your mouth. Elaine has commented on "less-than-a-latte" pricing for novellas, and that's fair, but upcharging for a "hardcover" e-book? Not so much. Again, I'm sorry. This is a touchy subject as there is no longer a good ol' fashioned bookstore in my county. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 24 Jul 2012 04:23:05 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 12:28:37
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No worries, Fellfire. I know very well the frustration of seeing bricks-and-mortar bookstores disappear. I'm an advocate of eBooks for pragmatic reasons, but I still love good old fashioned books. Sometimes I go to our local library for no more specific reason than to be surrounded by them.
One more comment on the notion of "unfair" pricing for electronic versions of hardcover books. Pricing has to do with two things: value and cost. The value of an object, in economic terms, is the price people are willing to pay for it. Books are printed in hardcover for many reasons, but usually a hardcover novel results from a solid track record of sales, high reader demand, excellent author name recognition. People want to read the next Stephanie Plum or Harry Dresden or Sookie Stackhouse book, and they value that reading experience enough to pay hardcover prices.
Now, consider costs. The fact is, eBooks don't cost that much less to create than paper books. The printing costs come to about 10% of the cover price. Selling a hardcover for $19.99 and the eBook version for $1.99 might work out just fine if 95% of sales are print books and only 5% are eBooks. If the sales are split closer to 50/50, or if eBook sales outstrip print, then you have a problem.
Yes, an individual eBook costs less to produce than an individual print copy. But there are fixed costs involved in producing a novel, and the per-unit pricing has to reflect the overall cost of production.
For a breakdown on what a book costs to produce, here's a link to an article from Money Magazine:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13556_3-10250017-61.html
For those who don't want to read the whole article, here's the very good conclusion:
"When you're talking about business models and pricing, it is important to actually run the numbers. One can dispute fundamental assumptions behind those numbers of course, but at least they give a starting point.
In this case, they show that--if you want the same level of professional preparation and promotion associated with a typical printed book--the $9.99 e-book price that a lot of people grumble about is probably pretty near the floor."
Any discussion of a "fair price" for eBooks is meaningless without some understanding of the POSSIBLE price. If you want to stay in business, ANY business, you can't sell goods at a price that's below the cost of production. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 24 Jul 2012 12:46:06 |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 13:23:17
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| I would like to see someone start the practice of including an ebook version with hardcovers redeemable via a code. If I'm going to spend $15 or $18, and one is 1's and zero's and the other will be displayable on a shelf I'd choose the hardcover, but I'd still like the convenience of having the ebook at my fingertips. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 13:28:39
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quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
I would like to see someone start the practice of including an ebook version with hardcovers redeemable via a code. If I'm going to spend $15 or $18, and one is 1's and zero's and the other will be displayable on a shelf I'd choose the hardcover, but I'd still like the convenience of having the ebook at my fingertips.
I don't think that would be possible without raising the current prices. After all, even though it is probably cheaper to distribute an ebook than a paperback, there are many additional fees in making both of them. Just giving away codes for ebooks without raising the price would probably eat away their profit, which from what I've heard, isn't so high already. |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 17:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
I would like to see someone start the practice of including an ebook version with hardcovers redeemable via a code. If I'm going to spend $15 or $18, and one is 1's and zero's and the other will be displayable on a shelf I'd choose the hardcover, but I'd still like the convenience of having the ebook at my fingertips.
I don't think that would be possible without raising the current prices. After all, even though it is probably cheaper to distribute an ebook than a paperback, there are many additional fees in making both of them. Just giving away codes for ebooks without raising the price would probably eat away their profit, which from what I've heard, isn't so high already.
I don't see any need for them to raise the price to do this. You're already paying the premium price for the hardcover. Including the ebook with the hardcover will only lose them money if they count of double dipping into the same customer base for additional sales. So yes..while I'd also love to have the ebook also, I would never buy the HC, and then also buy the ebook, and WOTC should never expect that anyway from anyone. An ebook is an alternative way of selling books...not an additional way of making money off the same book sold. On top of that, the bandwidth will be non consequential, given the size of the downloads <1MB. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 23:54:45
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phranctoast has an interesting idea. I've noticed that with some DVD and Blu-Ray movie purchases, the customers gets a digital copy as well. This would be similar.
You'd think that if it can be done with movies, it might be possible for books. But I'm not hip to all the considerations that go into publishing decisions, so I don't know for a fact that it would be feasible. |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2012 : 13:05:31
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I'm a bit surprised Amazon hasn't taken the reigns on something like this yet. I could already see it... Buy a physical book from Amazon, and they unlock that book for you in their cloud storage. It would make the transition from physical books to ereaders a bit easier for some people while future proofing your collection if you've yet to buy an ereader.
When you mention the Blu rays, and DVD's you reminded me of an initiative Walmart took ,in which you bring your physical movies to Walmart, they mark them, and unlock them on your Vudu account (Walmarts Video cloud service) for $3/movie. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Hardcover eBook pricing.
