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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 15:20:57
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Does anyone know what the relationship is like between Underdark hobgoblin tribes and the drow? Enemies? Neutral? Trade partners? Allies?
I'm looking specifically at the central Amn region in early winter 1370. The section of the Underdark beneath Amn is the lost Deep Shanatar kimgdom of Xothaerin, and the entire region is basically wilderness dominated by formians and stingers. Any drow making their way into this region would likely be from the drow cities to the south beneath Tethyr. The Underdark hobgoblin tribes belong to Sythillis' army. It's just a guess on my part but i'm wondering if they might come from the Underdark to the east or southeast (eg, nearer to Turmish or the Shaar).
If nobody has any info on this I'll pose the question in Steven Schend's forum, but I wanted to check here first.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 16:33:08
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| I'd say the hobgoblins would most likely end up as drow slaves.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 17:39:27
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Now what is your question:
1. Where the Hobgoblins of the Sythillis Empiure originate from (Trumish or the Shaar)?
My answer: I don't know but i will investigate further.
and/or
2. what relationship they might have with the Drow in that region?
My answer: The nearest drow settlement to the hobgoblins is the city of Guallidurth, under the Calim Desert. As the sourcebook Underdark indicates, this drow metropolis is very arrogant, conquering and hostile towards almost every other settlement near and far. It is also mentioned that it is a threat to the stinger colony. I would believe that any relationship between the drow and the Sythillis Empire would be similar - that is a hostile and aggressive one, leaving only room for either destruction or enslavement.
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 20:47:47
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Thanks both. I'm not real knowledgeable about drow, so this really helps.
Sorry if my question was confusing. I added a speculation in there about where Sythillis got his Underdark hobgobs from, so that amounts to a subquestion within the main question.
There's mention in Lands of Intrigue of a settlement of 6,500 drow consisting of heretical worshippers of Vhaerun, plus other drow exiles and outcasts, residing above ground in the dark, dense, Forest of Mir in Tethyr. That's who I was thinking of, though I forgot they're above ground (though heavily shaded in a dark forest). LoI states that the drow there have three settlements connected by tunnels and caverns created during the Night Wars. The lowest of these tunnels that connect with the Underdark have been sealed off to prevent attack from drow forces from Guallidurth, who have been trying to erradicate these settlers for the past 50 years. Dallnothax, Holldaybim, Iskasshyoll are the names of the three settlements.
I would think that these drow in the Forest of Mir would inhabit both the tunnnels/caverns, and the above ground areas. Unless they're really trying to make a clean break from living underground.
Also looks like Karsoluthiyl (200 miles west of Baldur's Gate) is about the same distance as Guallidurth. But that seems to be sort of a drow frontier trade town. Seems doubtful they'd venture that far south (and through stinger country to boot). Maybe an exploring party would, I guess.
The reason I'm asking is I'm trying to guage how well received outcast drow would be--assuming they haven't adapated to the surface--by Sythillis' Underdark hobgoblins.
But now in looking back on my notes I recall that there is this community of heretical surface drow in the Forest of Mir...
Any thoughts on how the those Vhaerun worshippers and exiles in the Forest of Mir might be received by Sythillis? And/or his hobgoblin chieftains? |
Edited by - Lemernis on 04 Dec 2006 20:52:31 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 22:36:17
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Okay I see on p. 114 of Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark that hobgoblins took over the dwarven realm of Holorarar after it fell to ruin due to the Kin Clashes. These hobgoblin tribes have remained strong there. In -379 they united under a king. This is located beneath the Clovis Hills of central Tethyr. This must be the bunch recruited by Sythillis.
Edit: Come to think of it, these hobgoblins must have had interactions with the drow settlements in the Forest of Mir--unless of course the drow never spend any time in the Underdark any longer. Anyway, Clovis Fields is right next to the Forest of Mir. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 05 Dec 2006 00:36:55 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 01:37:44
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I think the hobgoblin point of origin is further east - the Gorge of the Fallen Idol to be precise.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 01:55:07
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| Neat. I see that comes from a timeline in Calimport (TSR9589). So they then took over the realm left behind by the dwarves of Holorarar just a bit to the west beneath Clovis Fields (which is only 80 miles from the northern edge of the Forest of Mir). |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 12:04:23
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With a drow settlement in the Forest of Mir - a fact that I was not aware of - this ight be different indeed. As both have greater threats close at hand I would believe that they are not necissarily traiding partners but at least not hostile towards each other. I would go with a unfriendly attitude, leaving each other alone as much as possible. However, that is just my personal shot at this, i cannot give you any reference. Besides, you are the DM and as such have the final say in what their relations should be like. 
Edit note:
The FRCS still mentions the existence of three Vharaunian drow settlements just under the surface near the foothills of the Marching Mountains, but nothing more specific than that. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 05 Dec 2006 12:15:03 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 15:30:54
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Thanks for the reference to FRCS, where in a section on the Forest of Mir it states (p. 156) "Three Vhaerunian drow settlements exist just under the surface near the foothills of the Marching Mountains." So at least for their existence in 1370 described in LoI it appears my conjecture is sound that they inhabit both the tunnels and caverns and above ground settlements under the dense forest canopy. This would make sense anyway, as Vhaerunians have the goal of transitioning from the Underdark to the surface life. It sounds to me like they would almost want to be something akin to 'amphibians' with respect to subterranean and surface living. They're probably nowhere near fully adapted to surface life, though, and my guess is they'd be underground mostly during the day, and above ground at night.
Edit: I turned up some more in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. The section on Ultoksamrin details the three Vaerunian drow settlements. That source mentions that the rogue drow there have rather extensive holdings beneath the eastern Marching Mountains and their foothills, and under the Forest of Mir. It also mentions that there are settlements above ground "beneath the boughs of the Forest of Mir." |
Edited by - Lemernis on 05 Dec 2006 18:04:33 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 21:27:36
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"The Temple City of Lolth [Guallidurth] lies deep beneath the Calim Desert, midway between Calimport, the ruins of Teshyll, and St. Noradnar's Hermitage."
Do the three landmarks mentioned form a triangle that Guallidurth lies in the middle of? Where are the ruins of Teshyll and St. Noradnar's Hermitage? Which source book shows that much detail for the Calim Desert? TIA
Edit: Heh, nevermind, found the above locations and map in Empires of the Shining Sea. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 06 Dec 2006 01:47:26 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 12:31:02
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| Any idea where can I get info on the Underdark hobgoblin tribes of this region (central Tethyr)? Or hobgoblin society in general. I need to begin detailing how it came to pass that some of these tribes ended up in Sythillis' army. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 15:56:16
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No further info on them hobgoblins there, but the drow of the Forest of Mir were/are also reported as being worshippers of Bhaelros, an aspect of Talos. These would most likely be the surface living chaps though.
As for hobgoblins in general, they are noted among the slave troops of the drow of Menzoberranzan - in quite sizeable numbers actually. Given their generally evil outline and discipline, one could envisage some "good" relationships between the drow and the hobgoblins. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Besshalar
Learned Scribe
Finland
166 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 16:35:04
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| For some reason my elaborate filing system (a big pile) seems to have misplaced the dragon, that had the ecology of the hobgoblin article, but it does exist and should be quite helpfull. Although reading that article I never really understood why the race isn't more of a power in the realms. |
The large print giveth , and the small print taketh away.
-Tom Waits |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 17:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
For some reason my elaborate filing system (a big pile) seems to have misplaced the dragon, that had the ecology of the hobgoblin article, but it does exist and should be quite helpfull. Although reading that article I never really understood why the race isn't more of a power in the realms.
"Paragons of War: The Ecology of the Hobgoblin", by Terry Edwards, is in Dragon 309. Info courtesy of The DragonDex, an up-to-date index of all of the articles in Dragon.
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Besshalar
Learned Scribe
Finland
166 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 19:21:22
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| I was pretty sure Woolly would have that knowledge somewhere.. :) |
The large print giveth , and the small print taketh away.
-Tom Waits |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 23:08:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
I was pretty sure Woolly would have that knowledge somewhere.. :)
I found that website a long time ago, while looking for something. It's so useful I had to immediately bookmark it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 11:51:37
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Thanks for all the help!
A follow up question: ogre mages are said to come from the east--are there any particular eastern lands that they tend to originate from? |
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Besshalar
Learned Scribe
Finland
166 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 12:07:15
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| I don't think that a specific land has been stated as their origin. But as they are quite heavily based on the oni of japanese folklore I'd probably say Kara-tur. Ofcourse this happened thousands of years ago and they can now be found much more widely. Also check out Dragon #349 for the ecology of the ogremage it's not realms specific but has a few hooks in it. |
The large print giveth , and the small print taketh away.
-Tom Waits |
Edited by - Besshalar on 15 Dec 2006 12:57:21 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 13:07:28
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Thanks Besshalar!
Can anyone recall if Ed has ever commented on why hobgoblins have such a relatively small population in the Realms compared with their goblinoid cousin races (goblin and bugbear)? The Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins posits a number of possible scenarios, the most sensible of which seems to be that their appearance as a species on Abeir-Toril is relatively recent. Given their strong military discipline and unquenchable thirst for conquest, it otherwise makes no sense that they would not have become a major force to be reckoned with across the globe. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 17:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Thanks Besshalar!
Can anyone recall if Ed has ever commented on why hobgoblins have such a relatively small population in the Realms compared with their goblinoid cousin races (goblin and bugbear)? The Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins posits a number of possible scenarios, the most sensible of which seems to be that their appearance as a species on Abeir-Toril is relatively recent. Given their strong military discipline and unquenchable thirst for conquest, it otherwise makes no sense that they would not have become a major force to be reckoned with across the globe.
Don't think he has, you could go ask him. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 00:31:04
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| Gotta be honest that I don't bother doing that anymore. Ed is under an avalanche of unanswered questions already dating back up to two years. I really don't see the point of waiting a year or more to *maybe* hear an answer to something related to a game, heh! Ed clearly loves to answer as many questions as he can, but he can't get to them all. That's just the reality of the situation. I do enjoy reading what he writes though! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 00:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Gotta be honest that I don't bother doing that anymore. Ed is under an avalanche of unanswered questions already dating back up to two years. I really don't see the point of waiting a year or more to *maybe* hear an answer to something related to a game, heh! Ed clearly loves to answer as many questions as he can, but he can't get to them all. That's just the reality of the situation. I do enjoy reading what he writes though!
Yes,
But it's info OTHERS can use at a later time. I've gone back and reused info that I never asked for that are in the 2004 and 2005 replies.
Your choice to ask though but as I said, others could use that material in the future.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 00:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Gotta be honest that I don't bother doing that anymore. Ed is under an avalanche of unanswered questions already dating back up to two years. I really don't see the point of waiting a year or more to *maybe* hear an answer to something related to a game, heh! Ed clearly loves to answer as many questions as he can, but he can't get to them all. That's just the reality of the situation. I do enjoy reading what he writes though!
Yes,
But it's info OTHERS can use at a later time. I've gone back and reused info that I never asked for that are in the 2004 and 2005 replies.
Your choice to ask though but as I said, others could use that material in the future....
Agreed.
I'm still mining Ed's '04 replies for material to use in my FR. I haven't even touched most of the replies from '05 yet... because there's still so much to use from 2004! 
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Twilight
Seeker
Canada
68 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 20:18:27
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| Enemies or thralls to the Drow most likely |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 01:05:43
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| Yeah, having researched this some more, I don't think there's any doubt but that the relationship would be a hostile one. In the NWN2 persistent world I'm working with we've written a rather detailed history for the hobgoblins of Holorarar in particular. And we'll be doing the same for the traditional drow of Guallidurth and the heretical drow of Ultoksamrin/Forest of Mir. But suffice it to say the relationship is not frendly between any of them. We have only the hobgoblins allied witb Sythillis. |
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Twilight
Seeker
Canada
68 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 07:15:23
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| I'm pretty sure most Drow settlements are hostile towards everyone unless the could see an advantage in having a friendly one. Drow aren't the nicest folk in the realms but it is the underdark |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 17:44:34
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For information about Hobgoblins, you could reference the non-canon, non-WoTC supplement called Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins.
I personally love the series of books. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 01:13:16
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Thanks, and yes, the Slayer's Guides are really good, I like them!
If anyone is interested I'll post what I've done with the material on hobgoblins for a NWN2 persistent world set in Amn (see sig).
By the time I'm done with all this I'll be tempted to write up an entire campaign set. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 12:14:10
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| In the region I'm studying (Small Teeth region of Amn, winter 1370) hill giants and ogres both inhabit the Small Teeth mountains. But ogres seem to far outnumber the hill giants in a big way. And ogres seem to have established themeselves in the region for much longer. Presumably both live alongside one another, but which of the two giant subraces do you think would be dominant? Near as I can tell ogres are typically subservient to giants. But as noted, here the ogres vastly outnumber the giants. |
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Koushiro
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 07:28:56
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| At that time the small teeth were(and still are) under the control of the Sythillisian empire ruled by two ogre mages. Though, even without that I would assume the ogres would have dominance over the hill giants, just because hill giants are pretty dim, and with a couple ogre mages controlling the ogre tribes they could easilly outsmart any attempt the hill giants would make to gain dominance. |
Edited by - Koushiro on 08 Jan 2007 07:42:00 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 07:39:26
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| Even if the ogres are dominating I think they will have to use wits and give the giants the impression of being in an equal alliance. Hill giants are not very submissive by nature, especially to creatures smaller than them. I have no problem seeing a ogre mage, being both magical and intelligent, being able to control hill-giants, but ogres on their own would have a hard time convincing the giants of following them on anything but equal terms. Most ogre tribes are not lead by ogre mages and therefore the situation one has in the Small Teeth is rather rare. |
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Underdark hobgoblins and drow
