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Seth
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Nov 2006 : 23:56:56
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Alright, my question is, how is one 'sent' to the Abyss or The Nine Hells after death?
I've heard that you are sent to your patron deity's home plane. If you have no deity, you are trapped in The Fugue Plane.
I'm sure there are exceptions of course, such as consorting with demons or devils, or worshipping a fiend as a deity would automatically get you there.
Perhaps there is some 'law' or 'rule' that I don't know about...
I've also heard that demons and devils often take some of the ones trapped in The Fugue Plane to Baator/Abyss and 'draft' them there, so to speak. Or the ones trapped in The Fugue Plane volunteer to become a petitioner in the Hells or Abyss...
However I don't know if that is true.
If so is there any other ways? I'm not exactly sure how that works.
That also brings me to ask how is one sent to Mt. Celestia?
Or is the Hells/Abyss/Celestia etc. etc. etc. simply just a homeplane for planar beings and not exactly a place for 'afterlife'?
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Edited by - Seth on 30 Nov 2006 00:00:50
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 00:21:47
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First off, if you make a deal for your soul with either group, then your soul belongs to whichever one you bargained with (and the devil's are the more likely bargainers).
Also, demons raid the Wall of the Faithless from time to time and strip out decomposing souls to carry to the Abyss. So that gets them a few more followers. On top of that, its possible that some of Kelemvor's pronouncements upon the False might wind them up in the Abyss.
Devil's have a deal with Kelemvor to be able to bargain with souls that die, and as such, they end up picking up a few more souls in this manner as well.
Depending on the actual cosmology you are discussing (i.e. 1st/2nd or 3/3.5), Mount Celestia is either in the middle of the House of the Triad (and more or less accessable to souls there, as well as those souls pledged to the Celestial Paragons there), or there are LG gods that reside there, thus allowing for their being taken to that plane.
For more information on the new cosmology, see this:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5109
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 00:26:48
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There are 3 ways I can imagine that you could end up in the Abyss or Nine Hells when ou de
1) You made a pact with a demon or devil while you where alive and traded you soul fo somethng. In this case the demon or devil probably turns up at Fugues and claims your soulwhen it appears there
2)After youve died but before your deity has claimed your soul a devil may approach you and offer to take you to the Nine Hells this is most likely to be accpeted by those souls who fear how there patron deities will judge them or those souls who know that Kelemvor is going to judge them to be one of the Fathless o the false
3) Demons have been know to raid Fugues plane and kidnap souls waiting for their deities to come and get them and take them to the Abyss |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 13:49:49
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One other way is that Night Hags trade souls (in the form of larvae) to both demons and devils. The Night Hags "import" the larvae from other planes. Larvae are a very desirable commodity for the fiends, so the Night Hags do a very brisk and profitable trade.
Oh, also they try to establish cults. Archfiends hold themselves out as gods wherever possible and encourage worship so that they may claim those mortals' souls upon their death.
Dargoth and KEJR hit all the other major points above.
I love this scheme because it makes demons and devils very driven and consumer responsive. They are just champing at the bit to be "of service" to mages, shamans, evil clerics, the odd hedge witch and anyone who might need their services.
They (or their agents) may appear at times of stress and great need to offer a deal to obtain an otherwise impossible result in exchange for one's soul. Vengeance and grief are probably great motivators to make such deals.
They are driven to create cults wherever they can. The cold lands are riddled with such cults, but I am sure you can find such cults all over Faerun.
I am sure they try to spread around summoning scrolls and arcane formulas for contacting them as much as possible. You may see the odd dretch on a mission handing out pamphlets like a Hare Krishna in an airport. "Pardon me sir, have you considered Orcus?"  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 18:06:08
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That's just awesome. Demons and devils have to struggle with the ups and downs of the job market just like the rest of us do, albeit in a more metaphysical sense. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Exploit
Acolyte
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 20:27:15
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Not sure on what the canon response is but there may be a fifth way. Would not the souls of victims sacrificed to demons or devils end up in the abyss or hell?
As a sixth possibility would not undead, who tend to be faithless, end up in the abyss (Orcus's realm in particular)?
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 19:23:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Exploit
As a sixth possibility would not undead, who tend to be faithless, end up in the abyss (Orcus's realm in particular)?
I don't see why. Orcus doesn't have any special link to the undead, or blanket power over them. He tends to use them a lot, and there are lots on his layer of the Abyss, but there's nothing in the nature of undeath that's linked specifically to him. Despite his use of them, he hates undead just as much as 'living' things.
Yay crazy Tanar'ri. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Blackwill
Seeker
55 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 07:18:48
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| What happens to a soul once they get sent to the Abyss or the Nine hells? |
~Blackwill |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 07:57:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackwill
What happens to a soul once they get sent to the Abyss or the Nine hells?
They take a form specific to whatever lower planes they arrive on, depending on the extent of their connection to the plane's ethos. A CE highwayman who murdered a few people might might appear in the Abyss as a larvae, while a CE mass murderer who killed thousands might skip the default forms and spontaneously become a higher form of Tanar'ri. The more evil in line with a particular lower plane you were, you'll get fast tracked to a higher status among the Tanar'ri or Baatezu. Gehenna and Carceri are a bit different and I won't get into them for the moment, and on the Gray Waste you're just screwed because the 'loths don't use petitioners except as food, objects of torture, or currency (but it's the plane of purist evil and abject, misery, so that's the point of it all I suppose).
But those petitioners to the lower planes will become one of the lower types of fiends, or consumed, or killed, etc. Life is harsh, but that's the existance in which evil prospers, but the strongest tend to rise to the top and greater evil during a mortal's life is rewarded in a perverse sort of way on a number of those planes. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Blackwill
Seeker
55 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:58:22
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Then what happens to a Demon or Devil that is killed? Does he just simply return to his home plane? Are they immortal on their home plane? Do they become their former souls once agian?
It just seems to me, that a loop of life could be found here in.
A human becomes a demon in his afterlife, then gets killed, and his soul once again becomes a demon... life after life? Is this a loophole? |
~Blackwill |
Edited by - Blackwill on 09 Jan 2007 15:00:34 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 15:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackwill
Then what happens to a Demon or Devil that is killed? Does he just simply return to his home plane? Are they immortal on their home plane? Do they become their former souls once agian? It just seems to me, that a loop of life could be found here in.
A human becomes a demon in his afterlife, then gets killed, and his soul once again becomes a demon... life after life? Is this a loophole?
Generally speaking, a fiend that dies on its home plane is dead permenantly, and their essence is scattered/absorbed/devoured by that plane at large. Exceptions exist though. Dergholoths for instance can only be permenantly killed outside of their native planes, because they're used so extensively in the Blood War, it makes it advantageous for their metaphysical substance to react thusly. Some other exceptions exist such as mezzoloths.
And more powerful fiends may retain enough force of will to gather themselves back together upon being 'killed', though the process may take years/decades/centuries/etc. This is much easier if their 'death' was off plane rather than on their home plane.
Fiends that die off of their home plane typically have their essence return to that plane. Lesser fiends usually see that returned essence promptly absorbed/devoured by the plane, but more powerful fiends may reform as themselves, or as a lower caste fiend and be forced to reclaim their former status.
The 3e rules on this are somewhat murky and nonexistant, and prior to the Fiendish Codex I, they tended to ignore all of this and just had dead fiends being dead fiends regardless of where they were killed if they were physically present (as opposed to a summons). The closest look at the subject of fiend death comes from the 2e sourcebook 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends'. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 18:23:54
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| I do not recall what FCI stated about Tanaari, but FCII now has it that Baatezu specifically reform on the Nine Hells if they are killed elsehwere. |
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Zalantos
Acolyte
Italy
5 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 00:25:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dreamstalker
I do not recall what FCI stated about Tanaari, but FCII now has it that Baatezu specifically reform on the Nine Hells if they are killed elsehwere.
In FCI it is said the same thing
If a demon is killed in another plane, the body eventually (spells like dimensional anchor can prevent the body from returning to the Abyss) returns in the Abyss, but the failure usually involves a transformation in a demon of minor power.
A demon killed in the Abyss is killed permanently.
Obviously there are spells that can resurrect a demon definitely dead like revive outsider(SC) or true resurrection |
Sono la lama che taglia l'anima, sono la nera lacrima che sgorga da occhi spenti, sono il demone che soverchierà gli angeli. |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 13:25:23
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| Can mortals trade their souls to more evil outsiders than one? Do evil outsiders know if the soul already belongs to someone else? If you can trade your soul to many evil outsiders, what happens when they come to collect? |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 13:38:17
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Without knowing how the rules stand on this i would say that you can only sell your soul once. A demon or devil of enough power to have use for the soul personally would probably know if it had been sold or not. This might not be the case with lesser demons and servants.
It might be possible to get a very powerful demon to accept a soul already sold to a lesser creature, but the conditions in that case would not be very favorable for the original owner of the soul I would think. That is my theory at least; anyway as this is more or less a rambling I will stop here. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 18:07:08
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Well, one thing to consider is that it's really like selling the rights to your soul, rather than selling the soul outright. Basically speaking the soul doesn't leave until death, at which time the fiend takes the soul. With devils it'd be difficult to sell your soul twice because they keep REALLY good records and tend to check up on the status of souls more often than others (due to the lawful nature and the nature of their orginization). However, I wouldn't think it impossible to make a deal with a devil and then to make a deal with a demon (you'd have to be REALLY careful and it's possibly one of the stupidest things a mortal can do but mortals who are selling their soul already probably aren't too worried about things *g*)
Just some thoughts on it :) |
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Baator/Abyss afterlife question
