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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:50:51
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Zemd made an interesting query in the "Races of Faerun" thread re what do designers do when they come up against a conflict in the sources. I can't speak for all designers, but this is how Steven and Eric (and the rest of us) have tackled such situations.
1. Firstly, an error can be an opportunity. The classic example is the nation of Impiltur. The timeline provided in FR6 Dreams of Red Wizards states categorically that the realm of Impiltur was founded in the 1095-1097DR period.
If you read Cormyr: A Novel you will note that Ondeth and the rest of the Obarskyrs come to Cormyr in the early days of Dalereckoning (c. 6DR). How can this be?
The solution was simple and elegant. There was an Old Impiltur that fell/was conquered (whatever - details not important) before the New Impiltur that is mentioned in FR6. [Actually Ed has told me that Steve Perrin truncated and compressed the Impiltur historical notes that were passed on to him and that Impiltur was originally around a long time before 1095DR.] All of a sudden we have new opportunities: history to fill in, sites to detail, etc. etc.
Not every mistake is a disaster.
2. Sometimes a reference can be reconciled by some subtle re-writing, keeping the spirit of the original realmslore but tweaking it so it "fits".
There are numerous examples of such re-writes throughout the FR product range. Khelben Arunsun is the classic example - the two Khelbens idea came out of the wonderful imaginations of Steven and Eric to reconcile datings and references that were hundreds of years apart (Example: How can Khelben contribute the spell "Dismind" to the Workbook of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor when he's born in the early days of Waterdeep, hundreds of years later? Easy, it's the same guy. In fact, you'd be amazed at who Khelben has "been" throughout FR history according to Steven Schend ...)
3. At the last resort, you can rely on the fact that "unreliable" chroniclers (such as Volo) have simply got it wrong. In fact, it's actually like THIS .....
This has never been the preferred way of dealing with conflicting references, but you'd be amazed at how the wider FR community accepts such an interpretion if it sound, coherent and most of all, explained properly. Nothing pisses off an FR fan more than the FR writer who ignores (or god forbid, is unaware of) the conflict and hopes it won't be picked up on ....
4. The last, last resort is to ignore the bad reference. If it is a trivial, hard to find reference this can be done with only small fallout. If it isn't, then again, you have to explain WHY you've gone with a particular interpretation.
In fact, there are a ton of these obscure, just plain "don't fit" references scattered throughout the products. Most of the time they have little or no impact on a new product or the gameability of the Realms.
So there it is, a small insight into the creative decisions that have to be made when working on a FR product. If you guys think it's easy, you've got rocks in your heads ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 10:10:30
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The more i read what you do the more i find it interesting.
How many people work like you? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 14:07:09
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The usual suspects are (in no particular order) Grant Christie, Bryon Wischstadt, Thomas Costa and myself. In the good ol'days the other guys were dubbed "the Monks of Candlekeep". I was once described as the Kato Kaelin of the Monks (which if you know anything about the OJ Simpson muder trial makes weird sense) ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 16:57:25
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No, it doesn't sound easy -- but it sure sounds fun! Being a hobbyist writer (I don't like the term "amateur" unless I'm in a charitable mood) I've had some small experience in world-building. I know how exhilerating it can be when the world or story takes on a life of its own, and every piece just falls into place.
Of course, being just a hobbyist, I haven't published anything, so I've never had to "tweak" any inconsistancies like what you mentioned. But I have had things like what you mentioned with the Old/New Impiltur, and how it opened things up; sometimes a simple little note jotted down can have great impact on later writing.
One example I'm fond of quoting (due to how immediate the change was, not to it's size and scope) was with a story of three characters trapped on an Earth-like world. (I'm not going to go into the plot. It's complicated.) In the part where I was discribing their new suroundings, I felt like I needed one final descriptive. Since the characters (who just got transported from polluted Earth) had just commented on how clean and fresh it all seemed, I added in a mention of an unusual scent.
That led to a debate over direction (they suddenly had no compass points or a way to tell time). A nice, lively point of dialogue where I could establish how argumentative each one was. Now, I never thought I'd use that scent again, but then as the characters began exploring, they ran into the flowers that produced it.
That was a scene in itself, and one that really established that they were on an alien world. See, the fumes of the flowers in the grove they found act like a sleeping gas. And since it's constantly generated, it never wears off. The characters almost died, not from a weird alien monster, but from flowers that wouldn't have looked out of place on the Hawaiian Islands.
Later on (not there yet) they also will figure out how to distill the juice of the flowers into a powerful sleeping poison, and coat the tips of darts with it in the same way South American or African tribes do (or did, in many cases).
And all that from a mention of a strange but sweet smell in the air . . .
I love using that example. I've had others, but I think this is the best one. Sorry to ramble on like that, but I just wanted to say it. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
Edited by - Bookwyrm on 16 Apr 2003 16:59:21 |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 18:25:02
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Only four... that's not a lot. And how do you share the work? Do you divide the sections/part of history/locations between you?
And i assume that when you check the books, everyone reads everything. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 21:46:00
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| Krashos, do you know why they ripped the Realms out of the Planescape cosmology? Or whether anybody else was angry about that? (I know Planescape no longer officially exist, but the Planes are still a part of core DnD material). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 02:10:16
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Zemd wrote:
"Only four... that's not a lot. And how do you share the work? Do you divide the sections/part of history/locations between you?
And i assume that when you check the books, everyone reads everything."
It's quite simple we get to see anything the designer who's working on the product wants us to see. We all make suggestions, brainstorm generally and go through several revisions before there are no more e-mails because everyone is satisfied with the "final" product.
Then of course you have to wait several months to see what the editors have done to it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 02:17:08
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lowtech wrote:
"Krashos, do you know why they ripped the Realms out of the Planescape cosmology? Or whether anybody else was angry about that? (I know Planescape no longer officially exist, but the Planes are still a part of core DnD material)."
The name is George, actually unless you want to add "Mr"...
I have no idea why FR was ripped out of the Planescape cosmology as you write. There were many creative decisions on the release of FR 3E that we "lorelords" (as Ed likes to call us) weren't consulted about. Most often, our input is not creative. Some designers don't want suggestions on where they're taking the Realms or a chunk of it. Usually our job is fact and lore checking - consistency is the watchword.
It is nice though, when we do get to add our creative bits to the Realms also. For me, the products I had some creative input into were DDGttU, Sea of Fallen Stars, Demihuman Deities, Cloak & Dagger and a very small portion of FRCS. You'll note that the designers of the products listed above are all very similar ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 00:48:08
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It is nice though, when we do get to add our creative bits to the Realms also. For me, the products I had some creative input into were DDGttU, Sea of Fallen Stars, Demihuman Deities, Cloak & Dagger and a very small portion of FRCS. You'll note that the designers of the products listed above are all very similar ...
-- George Krashos
Gee, George, don't you want credit for the inestimable help you provided on Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea?
This guy's insane, folks, since he (and Eric and a few others) tackled the oh-so-tangled history of the North when few on-staff designers had the temerity to ever do so.....and he did this FOR FUN!
He's a good guy (for a lawyer and an Aussie).
Steven Schend
Just taking a moment to pick on George for the first time in years
Steven |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31722 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 04:50:57
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That's our George...insane, silent, and a lawyer...
George did a wonderful job with the history of the North, as you say. He spoke a little about it the last time he was here, and how challenging it was tracking down every single worthwhile fact and detail so as to make the history of the North as complete and comprehensive as possible.
I wish he'd hurry back here though, I want to organise some time to see him when I head over to Adelaide for a few days next month. He's even offered to involve me in one of his campaigns...
He's such a swell guy...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 06:22:59
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Hey Steven, glad to see you back in the FR scene.
You (and others) will be pleased to know that The North Timeline (Mk.2) is very close to completion. As I think I noted on the FR List a while back - "Now with 35% more Fluff!".
I'm hoping to have it done by the next week or so. A few people have been kind enough to offer to host it so I'll point people in the right direction.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31722 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 12:24:30
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That's excellent news George.... I think I remember reading that a while back on the FR Mailing List.
Also, be sure to inform Alaundo of this juicy new North Timeline (now with 35% more fluff). I'm sure he'd like to, at least be able, to post a link to where ever it is being hosted...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 16:03:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
You (and others) will be pleased to know that The North Timeline (Mk.2) is very close to completion. As I think I noted on the FR List a while back - "Now with 35% more Fluff!".
-- George Krashos
That's outstanding news to hear. Thank you for letting everyone here know when it goes online. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
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Bruce Donohue
Learned Scribe
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 02:56:51
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Hello George and hello Eric,
A few have been wondering, since you both worked and Demi-Human, I thought I might ask it here.
In FRCS, Eilistraee's home plane is liste as Arvandor, with a Minor Realm in the Demonwebpits. In the Forgotten Realms Players guide, it is listed that her primal home is Arvandor. Personally I am glad to see that she is back in Arvandor where she belongs. A few have hinted maybe it is because of what is to transpire in the final two books of War of the Spider Queen. Another theory is because Ysgard is no longer part of the Realms Cosmology and that you have to find her a suitable place and just chose Arvandor.
What some were asking is what was the reasoning behind this sudden change? How and what decisions did the Seldarine make to allow her back? I guess this also means that all of her followers go to Arvandor upon their time? How is her relationship with Shevarash now that her home plane is now Arvandor? It mentioned in Demi-Humans that Sehanine considers Eilistraee like her daughter and has been teaching her therefore what has Eilistraee learned from the Lady of Dreams Having said that, since I think Eric and Geroge you mentioned that it is Sehanine's duty to guide the Elves on their last journey to Arvandor. Does this mean that Sehanine also does that for the followers of Eilistraee and brings them to her realm on Arvandor? |
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FR Source Conflict
