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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 01:52:19
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Cityscape and Dragon 350 present several options to represent "magical pollution," random magical effects that begin to affect areas where a great deal of magic has been used. In Cityscape it is presented as being present potentially in neighborhoods with a lot of wizards and arcane guilds and schools.
At first I liked the idea, and I actually still do. Magic in the Realms has been shown to produce random effects and wild magic areas, and extreem displays of magic have been shown to damage the Weave, so it would make sense. Except instead of wild and dead magic areas, magical pollution seems really sinister. Its less about the Weave being strained with great magical effort, and more about an insidious mutation of the natural order from long term, routine use of magic.
Among the more magical cultures in Faerun, I really don't picture many of them having such magical "pollution." It doesn't seem to fit too well with Evermeet, Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Halruaa, or Thay even. But at the same time, I don't entirely dislike the concept, just the notion that normal, magic use, over time, would produce this kind of "pollution."
What I have been thinking is how to explain such a magical pollution. The first thing I though of is that clerics of Mystra and Azuth (and perhaps other gods of magic) can detect the onset of such pollution, and can, as a matter of course (perhaps by expending a "turning attempt") can clease an area and "freshen" the Weave in such an area. If this is the case, perhaps the use of the Shadow Weave, as it is more "subversive" might produce magical pollution that is harder to detect and cleanse, and Shar is less vigilant in having her clerics "clean up" the mess made with excessive Shadow Weave use. It could be that since the Shadow Weave has been only sporadically accessed until recent times, that such pollution would only become evident as Shadow Weave magic becomes more prevelant.
Following this same line of thinking, perhaps the edges of Wild Magic and Dead Magic areas are more prone to "pollution" and more difficult for clerics of the gods of magic to cleanse. Thus, in cities where wild or dead magic areas exist, this might be a more common occurance.
Does any of this make any sense at all? And do any of my fellow scribes have any thoughts on this phenomenon?
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 02:10:05
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Not having read the book, I can't comment specifically, however...
In Mysteries of the Moonsea, in the Hillfsfar section, the Thayan Enclave has magically polluted an orchard there. They did not intend to do so, but now that they have, they are studying it and trying to replicate it.
I could very easilly explain why magical pollution does not occur in Evermeet and other elven realms. Elves are more in tune with magic, and study it more comprehensively. The "weaves" of their spells are "tighter" restricting arcane "seepage." This is kind of obvious to me since the Elves have the most ancient practioners of magic on Faerun.
Not knowing what Cityscape said specifically about magical pollution, I do believe that I could see such things happening in Thay. The Thayans are grasping wizards, seeking shortcuts, heedless of the consequences. If FR was an expansion of Magic the Gathering, the Thayans would be black cards. Thematically, they don't care if they hurt themselves to achieve their goals.
Additionally, I could definitely see magical pollution in Halruaa. They are definitely the most magically active, which leads into the situations that you described that cause magical pollution. Further, they are the heirs of a culture that has a reputation for being somewhat careless with magic with a great penchant for experimentation. Sounds like the perfect candidates for magic pollution.
I like the idea that clerics of Mystra might be able to "turn" magical pollution. However, Mystra doesn't generally intervene when it comes to the unintended side-effects of Wizards. She is much more concerned with making certain that everyone is able to access the weave (which is why her followers strive to "fix" wild and dead magic zones).
I see it as far more likely that there is a Bureau of Incantrixes (Incantrixi?) employed by the government of Halruaa that deal with magical pollution. I say Incantrixes since they are interested in affecting existing magics, though a Bureau of Abjurers would probably serve just as well. Very likely they are underfunded and un-appreciated. They might have a liason to the Watchful Order in Waterdeep, and research how the elves keep from polluting.
So... Elves use safe, refined weaves energy sources, while humans tend to use dirtier, less stable weaves. The human weaves normally aren't a problem, except when lots of humans get together and weave a lot. The Thayans are particularly bad, because they are Hummers compared to Halruaa's Toyotas. The elves use hydrogen fuel cell weaves, and don't like to share.
Did I just make an ass out of myself writing about something that I haven't yet read, or did I make sense? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 16 Nov 2006 02:12:43 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 02:52:19
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I like the idea of a department of Incantatrix(es ?), or at least a government agency in Halruaa looking into this.
And the whole "magical pollution" thing pretty well explains itself. I can see your point, and I had fogotten about the bit about the Thayan Enclave in Mysteries of the Moonsea. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36867 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 03:18:44
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I can definitely see magical pollution in Thay... I can see it in other areas, too. Maybe around the Hosttower in Luskan, maybe in some parts of Undermountain... Definitely in a lot of places in Thay.
Some Netherese ruins might have magical pollution, too... The write-up for Sakkors in Sea of Fallen Stars definitely implies magical pollution.
I don't see it in Halruaa, though. Sure, they are prone to experimenting, and there's a lot of them... But the Halruaans are pretty responsible with magic, especially with their heritage.
I also like the idea of Mystran clean-up squads trying to take care of magically polluted areas.
Ironically, I just read that article in Dragon 350, and it didn't really grab me.  |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 03:24:46
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| Malfunctioning or failing mythals would make possible pollution candidates. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 03:28:35
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Good point on the Hosttower Wooly, actually they strike me very much as powerful arcane casters that pay less attention to the consequenses of their actions than other arcane organizations. And it actually fits the Cityscape theme with Luskan as well.
At first I couldn't picture Thayans allowing all sorts of magical pollution befouling their homes and schools, but the more I think of it, the more I think that perhaps Thayans might have spells and items to "push" such pollution toward the "bad neighborhoods." Then they could observe the effects of it from a distance as it affects their "lessers." |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 03:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
Malfunctioning or failing mythals would make possible pollution candidates.
Ironically, I was just thinking that a "healthy," well functioning Mythal might naturally eliminate any magical pollution that might otherwise build up. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 03:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I like the idea that clerics of Mystra might be able to "turn" magical pollution. However, Mystra doesn't generally intervene when it comes to the unintended side-effects of Wizards. She is much more concerned with making certain that everyone is able to access the weave (which is why her followers strive to "fix" wild and dead magic zones).
I get what you are saying here, but when I thought of it, this was my logic:
Magical pollution can cause damage, random baleful polymorphs, and damage to the area where it springs up. If this is the case, it does some things that are against Mystra's precepts.
For one thing, anyone that associated the magical pollution with arcane spellcasters, and were adversely effected, might turn against arcane casters.
Also, seeing such wild and detrimental effects to magic, a prospective student of the Art might think twice about actually learning how to unleash magics that might degrade into pollution and corruption.
So I could see Mystrans wanting to do away with such an unwanted effect. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 03:45:03
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| The waters of the Vilhon Reach suffer from psionic pollution due to Jhaamdathan remnants and relics, as stated in LEoF. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 05:35:53
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Halruaan Wizards might be messy, but they are quite orientated at cleaning up their own mess ... if not it could be Abjurer/Mystran cleric Magehound that clean it up while regular Magehounds beat the responseble
but yeah ... both Thay, Around hosttower in Luskan, and some other places would be reasonable to give pollution (major Thayan Enclaves) ... major arcane battlefields could also be the source of pollution |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
Edited by - Sian on 16 Nov 2006 05:36:27 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 18:05:56
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quote:
Magical pollution can cause damage, random baleful polymorphs, and damage to the area where it springs up. If this is the case, it does some things that are against Mystra's precepts.
For one thing, anyone that associated the magical pollution with arcane spellcasters, and were adversely effected, might turn against arcane casters.
Also, seeing such wild and detrimental effects to magic, a prospective student of the Art might think twice about actually learning how to unleash magics that might degrade into pollution and corruption.
I still disagree... spellcasters are directly associated with the formation of Anauroch which has swallowed whole nations and threatens still more. What did Mystra do? Nothing.
The Magically manipulated weather in Thay that is directly linked to spellcasters causes flooding and other un-natural environmental hazards for their neighbors. What has Mystra done? Generally encourage Thayan wizards in their continuing experimentation, even as she disapproves of their goals of domination.
The arcane tidal wave that wiped out the Jhamdathan peninsula destroyed an entire culture is directly tied to elven spellcasters. What has Mystra done? Nothing at all.
The crackling, flickering, failing Mythals and Portals that are hazardous to all around them are directly the work of spellcasters. What does Mystra do about these? Generally, she ignores them (even when being bent to the will of elvish demons and arch devils).
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm not saying that a sect of the religion couldn't act in the manner that you have described, but it certainly seems to me that Mystra is willing to let mortals suffer the repurcussions of their own spellcasting. Perhaps this could be a tolerated Heresy within the Mystran church. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36867 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 19:50:31
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I still disagree... spellcasters are directly associated with the formation of Anauroch which has swallowed whole nations and threatens still more. What did Mystra do? Nothing.
The Magically manipulated weather in Thay that is directly linked to spellcasters causes flooding and other un-natural environmental hazards for their neighbors. What has Mystra done? Generally encourage Thayan wizards in their continuing experimentation, even as she disapproves of their goals of domination.
The arcane tidal wave that wiped out the Jhamdathan peninsula destroyed an entire culture is directly tied to elven spellcasters. What has Mystra done? Nothing at all.
The crackling, flickering, failing Mythals and Portals that are hazardous to all around them are directly the work of spellcasters. What does Mystra do about these? Generally, she ignores them (even when being bent to the will of elvish demons and arch devils).
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm not saying that a sect of the religion couldn't act in the manner that you have described, but it certainly seems to me that Mystra is willing to let mortals suffer the repurcussions of their own spellcasting. Perhaps this could be a tolerated Heresy within the Mystran church.
A lot of things you refer to weren't done under Mystra's watch, they were done under Mystryl's watch.
And you speak of many things that aren't directly magical pollution, which is what we are talking about... Since Mystra's servants do try to take care of wild magic and dead magic areas, why would they ignore magical pollution? Just because we've not seen them worrying about such things in print doesn't mean that she doesn't have someone working on it... |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 20:03:34
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| While not having read either Cityscape or Dragon 350, would you consider some Imaskari sites to also have pollution? The book Darkvision gives several ideas with this, perhaps an old, forgotten weapon has "leaked" and polluted the land around it, or perhaps they created a demi-plane to shunt their pollution into. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 20:09:36
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Hey KEJR, don't forget about Tom Costa's Zhentish sewer rats from the Realms Bestiary Vol.1. They exist as a result of all of the magical fallout in that area. Based on that alone, I have used magical pollution in my campaigns in the past, and am excited to hear that it is covered in Cityscape.
I understand your position that responsible magic users, such as those found in the places you mention, would likley try to contain this pollution as much as possible. However, even in those places, mages can become greedy, mad for power, or just plain crazy and may forget themselves. I would suspect Halaster to have left quite a bit of magical pollution in his wake during his madness, for example. I tend to use it in any place where a powerful magic user (or users) with little regard for the world around him (which is a good number of magic users in my opinion) practices magic that is experimental, exceptionally powerful, or just done repeatedly over a long period of time. I guess my overall concept is that magically polluted areas are often associated with "rogue" mages. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 20:15:13
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| What about the city that Eltab was contained in for a time. Wasn't it in Thay and the waterway (river?), in the city that was shaped like a giant glyph, polluted by magic? Just thought I'd see if any one remember anything about that, if I am correct in my recalling of the subject. :) |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 22:13:40
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quote:
A lot of things you refer to weren't done under Mystra's watch, they were done under Mystryl's watch.
And you speak of many things that aren't directly magical pollution, which is what we are talking about... Since Mystra's servants do try to take care of wild magic and dead magic areas, why would they ignore magical pollution? Just because we've not seen them worrying about such things in print doesn't mean that she doesn't have someone working on it...
I think that there is a real difference between magical pollution and wild/dead magic. Wild/Dead magic is really a matter of accessibilty and reliability. Neither of these areas are inherently dangerous if you aren't depending on magic in them. As Mystra seeks to promote magic use all over, these issues of accessibility are diametrically opposed to her philosophy. Thus we see that the clergy are inherently interested in 'fixing' them, just like the power company is interested in fixing downed lines, or regulating wildly surging voltages.
Magic pollution, on the other hand, is a by-product of magic use, but does not directly impede magic use. In fact, its presence might inspire some to learn magic in order to correct it.
I agree with you that the newest incarnation of Mystra (decidely good) would probably be concerned about this as they pose a hazard to virtually everyone and give wizards a bad name. At the same time, CE invokers are also a hazard to virtually everyone, and give wizards a bad name. In my estimation, the clergy of Mystra would be equally concerned about magical pollution as they are with CE invokers. Since they haven't called any church-wide crusades on destructive magic users, I equally doubt that the church as a whole would be concerned with magical pollution.
Again, I certainly believe that a sect of Mystrans might take up Magical Environmentalism as a cause (so as to combat magical pollution), and that these are probably among the newest of Mystra's converts (as they have only ever known a good Mystra rather than a neutral one).
In the end, of course, this sounds like a great question for Ed. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 22:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I still disagree... spellcasters are directly associated with the formation of Anauroch which has swallowed whole nations and threatens still more. What did Mystra do? Nothing.
The Magically manipulated weather in Thay that is directly linked to spellcasters causes flooding and other un-natural environmental hazards for their neighbors. What has Mystra done? Generally encourage Thayan wizards in their continuing experimentation, even as she disapproves of their goals of domination.
The arcane tidal wave that wiped out the Jhamdathan peninsula destroyed an entire culture is directly tied to elven spellcasters. What has Mystra done? Nothing at all.
The crackling, flickering, failing Mythals and Portals that are hazardous to all around them are directly the work of spellcasters. What does Mystra do about these? Generally, she ignores them (even when being bent to the will of elvish demons and arch devils).
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm not saying that a sect of the religion couldn't act in the manner that you have described, but it certainly seems to me that Mystra is willing to let mortals suffer the repurcussions of their own spellcasting. Perhaps this could be a tolerated Heresy within the Mystran church.
I think you're confusing magical pollution (which are the unintended side-efffects of magic) with purposeful devastating and detrimental magical effects. All the above examples you mentioned, with the exception of Mythals, resulted from sentient spellcasters choosing to cast spells with the effects you mentioned. They intended to cause destruction on that scale.
- The Phaerimm wanted to destroy Netheril by draining the life from their once fertile lands.
- Thay wanted to control weather and were willing to take what they needed from their neighbors. Although I don't recall the weather magics of Thay having serious effects on their neighbors. The Shades trying to melt the High Ice did, but that was handled.
- The elves wanted to annihilate Jhaamdath in a deluge.
Mythals are the only example you provided where something magical malfunctioned and has since produced undesireable effects in the surrounding areas. The reason mythals haven't been fixed is that so few people know how to, and so few people can. Only with a crusade did the Elves fix one mythal, or after a major battle did the elves fix Everaska's mythal since elves actually live there. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 23:42:24
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Reading City of Splendors: Waterdeep, I noticed a probable reference to magical pollution in "the Cynosure" entry on page 96. "Although the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors cleaned up much of the fall-out of the destruction of the Lord of Bones, Myrkul's Ruins remain the site of a seemingly permanent planar breach..."
Major cities like Waterdeep likely have their municipal organization clean up major contamination sites. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 00:23:33
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I would contend that as a "good" deity, she ought to be MORE concerned with maliciously wielded magics, than with effects that are coincidentally damaging.
The comparison is something like worrying more about building code violations than thieves, rapists and murderers. Sure, unsound buildings are dangerous, but they are not actively out to harm people. I just can't fathom that logic.
On the other hand, if you're not worried about thieves, rapists and murderers, building code violations probably don't concern you either.
The fact that an elven crusade took care of a dangerously failing mythal really only strengthens my point (imho). You assert that very few people know how to maintenance a mythal. One of those people ought to be (in theory) the goddess of magic. If the goddess of magic was concerned about this dangerous phenomena, she could certainly train up one of her followers to handle it. If one of her faithful allready knew how to repair a mythal, she could have "asked" them to go and take care of it. If she was REALLY concerned about it, she could have done it herself. Instead, she let it sit there until Araevin developed an unhealthy fascination with mythals and decided to fix it outside of her influence. How many hundreds of years was Myth Drannor sitting there?
Now, by contrast, how long were those dead and wild magic zones around after the Time of Troubles? Most of them have already been fixed.
When gods care about something, they get it done. When they don't, they don't.
BTW... I just realized that I might be seeming a little bit pompous and arrogant. Such is not my intention. I do however enjoy a spirited debate. I really have enjoyed this topic and everyone that has contributed to it. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 17 Nov 2006 00:24:01 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 00:32:52
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| Theres a room in one of the Ruins of Undermoutain boxset that details "mudmen" who have been affected by magical polution flushed down from Waterdeep sewers |
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 00:37:25
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Quite possible. Mystra can't do everything herself, nor should she.
A few thoughts and some conjecture, though nothing I know of to support it.
- By allowing Myth Drannor to decay, it creates an additional impetus for the elves to reclaim the city and repair the mythal. While I may be giving Mystra too much credit, perhaps her actions are part of her plan to rebuild the city where many races lived in harmony, providing the support for countless mages to conduct positive and safe magical research. Already the failing mythal may have had a hand in training a young and increasingly powerful wizard.
- Mythals could be under the care of Corellon, or even more precisely the demigod/lesser god Mythrien. Mystra could have a hands off policy concerning the mythal aspect of magic due to her amiable relationship with the Seldarine. Elf business is elf business. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36867 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 01:39:21
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I would contend that as a "good" deity, she ought to be MORE concerned with maliciously wielded magics, than with effects that are coincidentally damaging.
Mystra is good, but she has to be neutral in regards to magic... She got slapped down for that. She has to allow malicious magic just as much as she has to allow benevolent magic. She cannot favor one side over the other.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 01:52:18
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| KnighterrantJR: your Magic Polution "EPA" sounds like a job for the Knights of the Weave (See champions of valor) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 12:42:14
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| My thoughts precisely Wooly. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 00:46:50
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| The High Moor seems (or did seem) to be a prime example of magical pollution IMO. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Magical Pollution and the Realms (Compatable?)
