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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2006 : 21:58:06
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Some games make "meaningless death" rare, D&D is not one of them. If we want to deal with the availibity of Resurrection effects, we have to include them.
I have no problem to say that many don't want to return, and I do think that a good usage of Resurrection magic can be included in a good story.
My main problem with those effects come from the numerous "meaningless death" that can occur in a typical D&D games (Adventurers going into "dungeon"). Lethal traps, save-or-die spells, etc. can cause many surprise death that add nothing story-wise.
The question I'm asking to myself (and to you of course) is how those deaths should be treated in FR; for example the figther bashing a door protected by a "Slay living" trap that the rogue failed to notice during a tomb exploration.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2006 : 22:08:47
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Well Ed has in general treated a public death as final, a private death as reversable. Not that a public death can not be reversed just it is culturally considered unacceptible and many cultures appear to give all (or most property to heirs leaving the raised person very poor and without family as well).
As for the tomb raiding, getting first aid quick would fall under a private death. This of course infers that a healer is available or can be reached discretly |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 06 Nov 2006 22:11:17 |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1076 Posts |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2006 : 23:15:19
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I should have included that in the OP :
I will soon test some house rules in a new one-player FR D&D campaign and I'll include Action points and the Revivify (SC) spell to reduce them. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 06 Nov 2006 23:15:48 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 00:57:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
One way to reduce "meaningless death" Play with action points
which originates from the Eberron campaign game |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 01:01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
One way to reduce "meaningless death" Play with action points
which originates from the Eberron campaign game
In fact, they were first published in Unearthed Arcana (available in the SRD). |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 01:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
In fact, they were first published in Unearthed Arcana (available in the SRD).
really? I haven't compared the two sources |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 01:29:42
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| Who says it's meaningless? That kind of sudden death is one of the perils of adventuring, especially when they're careless. If you don't want to tell stories of adventurers pitting their wits against traps -- built by particular people to guard particular things -- they shouldn't go in dungeons, or you shouldn't place traps there. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 01:44:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Who says it's meaningless? That kind of sudden death is one of the perils of adventuring, especially when they're careless. If you don't want to tell stories of adventurers pitting their wits against traps -- built by particular people to guard particular things -- they shouldn't go in dungeons, or you shouldn't place traps there.
Hehe, I waited for such an answer 
Well it's a problem of "good story" vs verisimilitude, a wizard's tower, a king's vault in a high magic world like FR must have many perilous traps.
One death caused by such perils can be good for the story, two in a row with the same character, caused by many bad rolls = bad story + frustrated player.
The problem discussed here arises when all those deaths are dealt with Resurrection magic; those "should be rare" effects begin to feel like mundane cure spells. Like I said, I want to have them, but mainly when dealing with a meaningful death.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 07 Nov 2006 01:46:17 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 02:05:36
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Happy to oblige.
My advice is the obvious answer: fudge the rolls. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 03:29:25
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I fixed meaningless death via institution of a house rule.
I started by eliminating "God Call." I don't know if any of you all used that, its fairly common among groups down here. Basically if you're about to die, your soul reaches out to its patron deity for recognition and aid. A percentile die is rolled. A result between 01-05 (+1% per 2 character levels) would result in an "answered prayer" (usually all hitpoints restored).
Second, resurrection/raise dead is reserved strictly for those with important unfinished business (if you died raiding a tomb for some loot, good luck getting raised).
Lastly, I invented a house rule called Heroic Death (inspired by Azoun IV). If a blow would take you into negative hitpoints, you may choose right then and there to die, but finish the job. Basically, you stay alive for just ONE more round. You get two Move Equivilant Actions, and Two Full Round Actions, and all of your rolls are at +20, no save vs. spells that you cast. The downside is, you CANNOT be returned to life, and you WILL die at the end of your free round. But hey, you died heroically after all... Usually heroic death is reserved for characters level 10 and above. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 03:30:52
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| This is why I like Revivification. If you cast this on a character that has "died" within one round, so long as they can be raised, you can bring them back. Its not quite like "bringing them back" so much as "saving them at the last second." |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 07:31:17
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i use some of the rules (slightly modified though) from dungeon #342 ... in my FR world only Kelimvor can resurrect people (true resurrection with a feat) ... and clerics with Healing domain can take the same feat to resurrect them (though not true resurrection
Revivify though is a spell that anyone can do |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1076 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 10:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
Second, resurrection/raise dead is reserved strictly for those with important unfinished business (if you died raiding a tomb for some loot, good luck getting raised).
I completely agree with you WalkerNinja
If you dont play with Action Points, I think there is a part called luck of herros(Feat) and Luck domain has a rerole opportunity.
What about raise dead Sian?
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Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
Links related to Forgotten Realms
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Priests in Forgotten Realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9609&whichpage=1 |
Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 07 Nov 2006 11:52:18 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 18:35:48
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As far as I can see adventurers should be powerful enough to cope with whatever traps befall them etc. Now I don't mean to say they should go in without a challenge, but generally by the time they are encountering Save or Die traps, they should have access to some scrolls/amulets/spellcasters able to protect them from death. If you're heading into a secret cult of Talona, you know to stock up on anti poison/disease stuff and so on.
I believe Ed has said in his thread somewhere (Kuje!!) that new adventurers are lucky to make it past a month of adventuring, so your PCs dying is not too uncommon from a realmsian point of view (however from a game point of view it's not a lot of fun).
What I can suggest is that occasionally these deaths will happen, and a raise or resurrection spell is fine. In our game we don't use the standard spell pricing as given in the SRD - Equipment section (under services) as it makes resurrection spells laughably cheap for something that is really such a big deal. We instead use a higher cost per cast.
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 08:38:24
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I fixed meaningless death via institution of a house rule.
I started by eliminating "God Call." I don't know if any of you all used that, its fairly common among groups down here. Basically if you're about to die, your soul reaches out to its patron deity for recognition and aid. A percentile die is rolled. A result between 01-05 (+1% per 2 character levels) would result in an "answered prayer" (usually all hitpoints restored).
Second, resurrection/raise dead is reserved strictly for those with important unfinished business (if you died raiding a tomb for some loot, good luck getting raised).
Lastly, I invented a house rule called Heroic Death (inspired by Azoun IV). If a blow would take you into negative hitpoints, you may choose right then and there to die, but finish the job. Basically, you stay alive for just ONE more round. You get two Move Equivilant Actions, and Two Full Round Actions, and all of your rolls are at +20, no save vs. spells that you cast. The downside is, you CANNOT be returned to life, and you WILL die at the end of your free round. But hey, you died heroically after all... Usually heroic death is reserved for characters level 10 and above.
I absolutely LOVE the Heroic Death!
One question, though: do you allow NPC´s to die in that way? Azoun was essentially an NPC, and the DM/writer ruled/decided that he would die that way.
On the one hand, above 10th level (I agree with HD being accessible only above 10th level!) it might be quite unbalancing. But on the other hand, the effect would be soooo good and can really add to the atmosphere/mood of the game (if potrayed correctly).
The only hard thing is for the DM to decide which NPC would chose a HD and who would hold on to life until the very last second. BBEG´s are an obvious choise, as are very fanatic NPC´s. Clerics and paladins are more likely to die in the service of their deity. But not everyone of them should do that, or the players will see them as "bombs" that go eff everytime one og them dies. The effect should be rarely used, imo.
"God Recall" isn´t bad either, but I would rule that the character who is saved in that way has a "debth", which WILL be repayed sooner or later. Lots of adventure hooks there... 
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Aquanova
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2006 : 18:37:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
One way to reduce "meaningless death" Play with action points
which originates from the Eberron campaign game
In fact, they were first published in Unearthed Arcana (available in the SRD).
Actually, it was d20 Modern introduced action points. |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2006 : 20:53:39
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quote:
Actually, it was d20 Modern introduced action points.
Well... for D&D maybe. Rolemaster had them before that.... for non-D20 stuff. They are called Fate Points and were in Rolemaster Companion VII in 1993.
If I recall, the major difference occurs in that it allows a re-roll of the dice, instead of just adding to an existing die roll.
Remember, Monte Cook worked with ICE before WoTC.
Edit: actually, Monte J. Cook was the Editor and Series Editor for that supplement. They also allowed a variety of stuff, and a NPC (or PC) could block another from using one by blowing one of his/her own. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
Edited by - Mkhaiwati on 11 Nov 2006 21:04:45 |
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Meaningless death and Resurrection
