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Neonai
Acolyte
Turkey
34 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 23:58:05
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It is a rather silly question though but ý couldn't help asking.
Where would the deities go after they die?
Like Myrkul dies and appears again in a crown, Bane dies and comes back, etc. as far as ý know deities can not be comletely destroyed if they have any believer left. and if not they vanish from existence.
but let s say, for the forgotten deities, someone found a tome praising a long forgotten deity and started to worship it and spread its dogmas, would that deity reappears?
where would that god dwell during that time? would it automaticaly take back its former domain? or do they simply create a new domain?
further for the dwelling case, does the destoyed gods like bane and forgotten gods like anuomator go the same plane or whatever after they lose their original domain to another god?
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Dungeon Moron
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 00:01:42
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Wasn't it the Astral Plane where their essences remain adrift?
I remember something like that mentioned in the novel Finder's Bane |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 00:05:18
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| In 1e and 2e they went to the Astral.... we really aren't totally positive that this is still the case in FR's new cosmology but there's no lore stating it isn't the case either. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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szasstamsgroupie
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 00:38:01
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| Don't they go to the astral plane to float dead? Basically like islands in the astral? And, no, they wouldn't come back. For example, Myrkul the god of death is dead and he still has a huge following, but Kelemvor is the new deity. :) |
Talk nerdy to me, baby! |
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Neonai
Acolyte
Turkey
34 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 00:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by szasstamsgroupie
Don't they go to the astral plane to float dead? Basically like islands in the astral? And, no, they wouldn't come back. For example, Myrkul the god of death is dead and he still has a huge following, but Kelemvor is the new deity. :)
eventhough myrkul is dead he still exists. if he had the power he might as well challenge kel. but that s not ý m asking. ý mean dead, doesnt exist anymore. let s say like old mystra. midnight is the new god of magic but where is the one helm killed. if she is floating in astral plane can she be resurrected or herself find a way to come back, like bane did? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 01:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dungeon Moron
Wasn't it the Astral Plane where their essences remain adrift?
Yes, the Astral.
And just to expand a little on Kuje's response above... For a well-detailed treatment of what happens when deities die and how they end up in the Astral, see both the original Manual of the Planes and the 2e PLANESCAPE supplement Guide to the Astral Plane.
Unfortunately, as Kuje stated above, we have little true lore on this planar aspect in 3e. However, until we've learned or been told otherwise, I think it's fair enough to assume that for the most part, such an aspect may still have some place in the 3e FR cosmology as well.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 01:47:15
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| I definately still consider the astral to be the "graveyard" for dead deities. It gives one more bit of character to the plane, not to mention it can make for some intimidating landscapes for anyone travelling through the plane. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 07:08:21
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I use the Astral this way as well in my campaign...bits of Aumanator's old form still floating about there even as I type.
I actually ran an adventure that occured on one of his hands. The Githyanki own the rest.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 07:34:42
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| well ... Ulutiu is slumbering next to his dead lover (the Giants Mother Othea) who is floating around in Astral ... so dead gods goes to Astral where they're floating around (Faiths and Pantheons under Ulutiu) |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
Edited by - Sian on 27 Oct 2006 07:42:36 |
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Neonai
Acolyte
Turkey
34 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 09:17:14
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thanks,
so the astral plane it is for sure. ý wanna learn about planescape, but ý remember that it is hard to comprehend the multiverse. is it so? a friend of my said something like that.
ha, another thing came to my mind. does the omnimious being like AO die too from time to time? I know a certain lady of pain that is rather ruthless and able to destroy any power. |
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Neonai
Acolyte
Turkey
34 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 09:21:39
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man, ý m full of questions.
what about karsus he became a god for a short time, is he considered to be a dead god and drifting in astral plane too? |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 14:11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Neonai
man, ý m full of questions.
what about karsus he became a god for a short time, is he considered to be a dead god and drifting in astral plane too?
maybe, but I don't think so...
the 2E The North box set describes what happend to his stone body, heart, etc.
the question is (and may have been answered in Planescape) that is the corpse of a god in the Astral Plane the actual physical corpse...or the physical manifestation of the power (as in 2E, when Planescape was developed) gods actually were more beings of thought and didn't actually have a body...and as the Astral Plane is the plane of thought...well, it makes sense to me 
anywho...if a god's corpse is the corpse of it's thoughts, then Karsus maybe in the Astral...but when he reached divinity, just for that moment, his physical form fell into the High Forest...thus his corpse is there... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 15:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Neonai
man, ý m full of questions.
what about karsus he became a god for a short time, is he considered to be a dead god and drifting in astral plane too?
maybe, but I don't think so...
the 2E The North box set describes what happend to his stone body, heart, etc.
And that's another freebie from the Wizards downloads page. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 16:53:43
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| Powers and Pantheons says he tenuously drifts in the Astral and he is also connected to Faerun via the Direwood. So, he's in both. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 27 Oct 2006 16:54:27 |
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Silvanus79
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:23:56
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Just to add a little, the old Planescape adventure "Dead gods" had a wonderful adventure about the corpse of a god floating on the Astral. I've personally ran that adventure with two different groups and it's quite enjoyable for those of you who like Planescape games.
Now, back to Realms before I get smacked.
I do remember the reference from "Finder's Bane" to deities floating in the Astral, so that's how they are in my Realms games as well.
As for Karsus, isn't there something called the Karsus Stone somewhere in the High Forest that holds some strange power or something? I remember a vague reference to it in a series I read a few years ago.
As I was writing this, I thought of an awesome idea... What if someone were to take the premise from "Dead Gods", tie in a fanatical cult dedicated to Karsus, and have a group of adventurers try to prevent the cult from resurrecting him? I know he can't really be resurrected, but perhaps it brings back some twisted creature that was made as a result of their magic. Hmm.... |
Procrastinators unite! Tomorrow. |
Edited by - Silvanus79 on 27 Oct 2006 18:25:08 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:26:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Silvanus79
As for Karsus, isn't there something called the Karsus Stone somewhere in the High Forest that holds some strange power or something? I remember a vague reference to it in a series I read a few years ago.
As I was writing this, I thought of an awesome idea... What if someone were to take the premise from Dead Gods, tie in a fanatical cult dedicated to Karsus, and have a group of adventurers try to prevent the cult from resurrecting him? I know he can't really be resurrected, but perhaps it brings back some twisted creature that was made as a result of their magic. Hmm....
the Karsus Stone is the petrified heart of Karsus's physical body when he grasped divinity
and that cult did exist once...they were the ones that built Karse on Karsus's dead body...the ones Wulgreth currupted/destroyed in revenge to Karsus |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Silvanus79
As for Karsus, isn't there something called the Karsus Stone somewhere in the High Forest that holds some strange power or something? I remember a vague reference to it in a series I read a few years ago.
As I was writing this, I thought of an awesome idea... What if someone were to take the premise from Dead Gods, tie in a fanatical cult dedicated to Karsus, and have a group of adventurers try to prevent the cult from resurrecting him? I know he can't really be resurrected, but perhaps it brings back some twisted creature that was made as a result of their magic. Hmm....
the Karsus Stone is the petrified heart of Karsus's physical body when he grasped divinity
Which is now in the hands of Shar.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:41:18
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| what would be interesting is ressurecting Othea ... for starters it means that the Giant socaity gets shaken (and prehaps end up fueling a war or two between the diffent giant races or prehaps even a war of the sexes in giant areas) ... secondly it would cause Ulutiu to wake and that, would rather quicky start out an war between him Umberlee and/or Auril |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Which is now in the hands of Shar.
which kinda freaked me out when I read that for the first time  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 19:15:36
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| There is an old Dungeon adventure that involved the "Queen" of the Githyanki. The entire adventure occured inside the body of an unnamed dead god. The Githyanki had delved throughout and created a city inside of it. The adventure never named the god and it just floated in the Astral. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 21:07:33
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PGtF pg.142 states that the Realm's Astral Plane is just like that in D&D core, except that one has to go through the Material plane to reach other (inner/outer) planes. That is the only difference between the two.
MoP pg.47 does mention the body of dead gods, so that seems to hint at dead Faerun gods lurking there. Pg.51 of the same manual give question about these bodies (Ex. Physical mortal bodies, Gravestones for the gods, sleeping dieties forms).
Since there are dead gods on Faerun, I would allow diety corpses to exist and use the Astral as a graveyard. But given the fact that dead dieties seem to have other links to the world (Helmlands, Bhaalspawn, Baneliches, Crown of Horns, Curse water by Bhaal, Servant of the Fallen Feat ), I might allow some of these corpses to hold more power.
Like being able to allow their clerics to gain spells while on their god's body. Or semi-sentience from random moment to moment (perhaps measured in months, years or decades). Other ideas uses the vanished realms of those gods. Perhaps another corpse exist in that realm, perhaps with more power. Or portals to those lost realms might exist only on the god corpse.
Just some thought on the matter. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 21:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Like being able to allow their clerics to gain spells while on their god's body. Or semi-sentience from random moment to moment (perhaps measured in months, years or decades). Other ideas uses the vanished realms of those gods. Perhaps another corpse exist in that realm, perhaps with more power. Or portals to those lost realms might exist only on the god corpse.
Just some thought on the matter.
I'v always thought that the powers are depicted too much as "uber characters" and not as actual "powers"...I mean less liek a person with tremendous powers with a job to do (i.e. their portfolio) and less on the sentient embodiment of the portfolio (that is why I approved of the change from 1E to 2E when gods become "more than mortal" and was disappointed when 3E brought that back
e.g. Talos is a uber powerful CE being whose job is to create and control storms and destruction or is the spirit/reality of storms and destruction physically manifested and given awarness
so to me your point that a cleric recieves spells (maybe even enhanced spellcasting) on the "corpse" of their gods makes sense...as the corpse (in my theory) is the physical manifestation of the sentience of that god... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 00:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
I'v always thought that the powers are depicted too much as "uber characters" and not as actual "powers"...I mean less liek a person with tremendous powers with a job to do (i.e. their portfolio) and less on the sentient embodiment of the portfolio (that is why I approved of the change from 1E to 2E when gods become "more than mortal" and was disappointed when 3E brought that back
e.g. Talos is a uber powerful CE being whose job is to create and control storms and destruction or is the spirit/reality of storms and destruction physically manifested and given awarness
so to me your point that a cleric recieves spells (maybe even enhanced spellcasting) on the "corpse" of their gods makes sense...as the corpse (in my theory) is the physical manifestation of the sentience of that god...
Well, with one of the latest Realms books (Powers of Faerun) it is hinted that the core personality of the diety can be altered by their worshippers. Making them differing to mortals who's personality is more stable.
It is like all the worshippers of Mystra believing that the goddess is an evil, baby eating monster she would start to become one. The idea was also brought up in Champions of Valour. Page six discusses the portfolio of gods as showing the people of Faerun view those ports in reguard to good and evil.
An example is Nature. Nature is a neutral or indifferent force, but most people view it as good. So many nature gods are good. (The gods of Fury are seen more as Destructive gods than nature gods, destruction being evil to the people of Faerun).
Another example is Heresy, which in Powers can be linked to a change in the personality and nature of a god. Like the Risen Sun Heresy, which says Lathander is Amaunator. The more that people believe this, the more Amaunator like Lathander is likely to becomes.
So in a way, 3.5ed Realms hints that the gods are mortal like and yet not mortals. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 01:18:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
There is an old Dungeon adventure that involved the "Queen" of the Githyanki. The entire adventure occured inside the body of an unnamed dead god. The Githyanki had delved throughout and created a city inside of it. The adventure never named the god and it just floated in the Astral.
Which was fully detailed in DUNGEON #100.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 02:57:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
There is an old Dungeon adventure that involved the "Queen" of the Githyanki.
And if you check out Dungeon #100 (as Sage mentioned) there's a map of the Githyanky city that comes with it.
The map depicts the corpse of a six armed (dead) god.
Now consider Eric (Boyd's) notion of Aumanator as a tri-partite deity....
I love it when good adventure seeds meet up with good adventures.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 14:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Neonai
Where would the deities go after they die?
Most of them are in my living room. Let me tell you Aumantor is a real pain in the a** |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 15:14:28
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Most of them are in my living room. Let me tell you Aumantor is a real pain in the a**
[/quote]
*choke back laughter* Really? And how's Old Lord Bones doing? I hope he's not demanding Grandma's Mystery Meat, "Aka, Death Food". Asuming he's still dead...er. |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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Paj
Seeker
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 10:27:18
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If the Dead Gods physical manifestations do float in the Astral Plane, then would there also be a FR version of Anubis there to watch over them?
If so would he be from the Mulhorandi or Untheric Pantheons? OR another pantheon entirely? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 12:05:45
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Anubis, as the "Guardian of the Dead Gods", presents a unique case in terms of relations to the FR cosmology in 3e. As it is... I wouldn't think he'd have much purchase in the Realms nor with the Mulhorandi pantheon because we know Anubis "ascended" (by giving up his divinity) to his unique divine position before the Mulhorandi pantheon had properly established themselves in Faerun.
If there is a Realms Anubis, I think he/it would still be divorced from the actual conception of Anubis as in the core D&D cosmology... an Realmsian interpretation for the Great Tree could be just as applicable... and could have developed (or rather come to be) after the Mulhorandi pantheon gained influence in Realmspace.
Another possibility is... If the Mulhorandi pantheon came from elsewhere, and we know they still did, there's no reason some variation of Anubis didn't get dragged along as well. For example, Ptah never made it to the mainland of Toril, but was worshipped by Faerunian Spelljammers, and was instrumental in helping the Mulhorandi pantheon make their move. Anubis could have a very similar story.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Oct 2006 12:07:07 |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 04:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
In 1e and 2e they went to the Astral.... we really aren't totally positive that this is still the case in FR's new cosmology but there's no lore stating it isn't the case either. :)
I wonder what, if anything, Ao would have to say about this. I know the Overgod typically isn't very interactive to begin with (officially anyway. He's a bit more interactive with the gods IMG), but would he just consider this dormant state part of the deific status quo, sort of a divine graveyard? |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 10:46:24
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I have a question. Where do the worshipers who have already died go after their god has died.
Meaning forexample where have the worshippers of Moander who died before Moanders death gone. Do they get split along with the portfolio between Finder and Lloth. |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Where would the deities go after they die?
