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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2006 : 17:49:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
You know it occurs to me that Ed Greenwood has said that he uses, or at least once used the Wood Between the Worlds (from the Narnia Chronicles) as a transitive plane in his home Realms.
OT, but I always did think that Nobanion = Aslan. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
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Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 15:00:36
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Wow this thread and its ideas are amazing! and KEjr your take on the whole matter is very much what I'd imagine it to be.
Question KEjr- In your game and the way you play the Plane of Faerie do you consider it to be an plane much like the Plane of Shadow in that eventually it connects to other primes and planes and realms completely. I used this plane explaning that it was actually affected or changed by those places it came into contact with the prime and planes and that in fact affected the fey themselves (RE:their chaotic natur),thus allowing for near infinte variations of fey creatures.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 15:34:32
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I hadn't really pictured it like the Plane of Shadows, but then I hadn't really thought about it. I can see fey from the plane making trips to other planes, even ones that are hostile to them, on "dare" and the like . . . for example to steal something of value from a demon prince or archdevil, or to play a prank on Mount Celestia, and I can see such fey being altered either by that plane or by the artifacts that they have "requisitioned."
I can definately see natural connections to the House of Nature and Arvandor, for example, and perhaps even the Elemental Planes as well, which of course would open the fey up to even more "alterations." Of course, being fey, I can picuture that such "mutiations" might not be mutations at all, but rather . . . "I really like fire, wonder if I can become some kind of fire faerie?" and off starts the "research."
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 22:16:06
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I kind of get the feeling that the Plane of Faerie touches on alternate prime material planes as well. There seem to be references of creatures and peoples of other worlds emigrating to Toril through Faerie.
But thinking on this further, it may be because the "Between" lies in Shadow and the plane of Shadow touches on other material planes.
Now that I think on it, if Kara-Tur's Spirit Realm is really just the "eastern" part of the plane of Faerie, then the many human migrants to Kara-Tur might have entered Toril by wandering through from Earth to Faerie (or the Between) into Kara-Tur.
There are sooooo many cultures from Earth's Asia that seem to have colonized Kara-Tur (and we are told in PGTF that these humans are not native but are interloper human populations), I had always wondered if they were brought in like the Mulan through gates, or if they wandered through in mass migrations through portals built by the Fey creator race or some such. But now it seems more likely that these peoples trickled through over time by wandering through their version of Faerie, the spirit realm of the Kami. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 22:42:41
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I like the idea that "Between" might be the border area between the Plane of Shadow and Faerie. Also, I wouldn't completely discount that the travelers might not have traveled from Shadow, to Between, into Faerie, then to Toril. Heck, it might have fueled all sort of stories of dark oni and the like.
On the other hand, I kind of had the same idea about the Shou coming through at the same time as the Mulan, considering that Imaskar was more or less in between Faerun and Shou Lung, and we know that at least one hold over from Imaskar's time was obsessed with taking over Ra-Khati. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 02:56:09
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All this is fascinating. By the way, the D&D stats for the LeShay are detailed in the Epic Level Handbook.
I only wish WotC would take notice that for several years the gamers of D&D/Forgotten Realms have been frequently asking for a book on Fey creatures.
How long will this group of D&D creatures go untouched? Are there any plans to finally do a Fey Book ala Draconomicon/Libris Mortis/Lords of Madness style?
As for a Realms persective, a book on the origins of the Realms and its Creator Races would be awesome. We'd finally get some valuable material on the Fey, Faerie, and all else fey-related and the Realms in such a book (along with the Aeraee, Batrachi, Humans, and a little more on Dragons and Sarrukh). A "Giants of Faerun" is something I'd love to also see.
Maybe WotC will do some "niche" Realmslore in their Digital Initiative? |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 03:16:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
How long will this group of D&D creatures go untouched? Are there any plans to finally do a Fey Book ala Draconomicon/Libris Mortis/Lords of Madness style?
I would love that. One for Fey and one for Giants. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 04:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
How long will this group of D&D creatures go untouched? Are there any plans to finally do a Fey Book ala Draconomicon/Libris Mortis/Lords of Madness style?
I would love that. One for Fey and one for Giants.
Not to derail the topic, but yes. Giants have long been rather over-shadowed by everything else in the Realms. Giantcraft helped ground their roots into the Realms by miles, but there's still a lot of ground to cover.
Whereas in Eberron they've been getting tons of attention. Mainly in the continent of Xen'drik, but they play huge parts in the ancient times of Eberron's past. If only the Realms designers hand the torch over to light the secrets of the Giants of the Realms.
Ok, back on topic, the Fey is definitely one set of creatures I'd like D&D as a whole to shed light on. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 05:16:44
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And though it's not Realms-specific, a couple of TSR/WotC people -- including our own Esteemed Sage Schend -- wrote a third party book on the fae. 'Tis called Faeries, and was released by Bastion Press.
I own very little in the line of third-party material (other than the defunct Dragonstar line), but Faeries is one I heartily recommend. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 May 2007 15:58:35 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 16:48:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I recently learned from a little "lawyer bird" that the fey will receive some welcome attention in the Realmslore toward the end of '07.
Eh? I see only two products. Grand History of the Realms, which might have some say on Fey but only in a historical context as opposed to game material, and Anauroch: Empire of Shade which is just an adventure book that looks as if it doesn't have anything to do with Fey. Though I don't know what's in the book, for all I know it could be littered with fey.  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 17:20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I recently learned from a little "lawyer bird" that the fey will receive some welcome attention in the Realmslore toward the end of '07.
Eh? I see only two products. Grand History of the Realms, which might have some say on Fey but only in a historical context as opposed to game material, and Anauroch: Empire of Shade which is just an adventure book that looks as if it doesn't have anything to do with Fey. Though I don't know what's in the book, for all I know it could be littered with fey.
There's always web articles and a few issues of Dragon/Dungeon left. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 22:53:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
I would love that. One for Fey and one for Giants.
Though mostly concerned with dragons, Candlekeep Compendium IV has quite a bit to say about giants and even one or two words about fey. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 01:12:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I recently learned from a little "lawyer bird" that the fey will receive some welcome attention in the Realmslore toward the end of '07.
Eh? I see only two products. Grand History of the Realms, which might have some say on Fey but only in a historical context as opposed to game material, and Anauroch: Empire of Shade which is just an adventure book that looks as if it doesn't have anything to do with Fey. Though I don't know what's in the book, for all I know it could be littered with fey.
There's always web articles and a few issues of Dragon/Dungeon left.
Hmmm... It could also be lore that's to be included in an FR tome that we have yet to learn anything about... and that will be scheduled for release at the end of the year.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 21 May 2007 01:14:36 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 02:13:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I recently learned from a little "lawyer bird" that the fey will receive some welcome attention in the Realmslore toward the end of '07.
Eh? I see only two products. Grand History of the Realms, which might have some say on Fey but only in a historical context as opposed to game material, and Anauroch: Empire of Shade which is just an adventure book that looks as if it doesn't have anything to do with Fey. Though I don't know what's in the book, for all I know it could be littered with fey.
There's always web articles and a few issues of Dragon/Dungeon left.
Hmmm... It could also be lore that's to be included in an FR tome that we have yet to learn anything about... and that will be scheduled for release at the end of the year.
Or that. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 06:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm... It could also be lore that's to be included in an FR tome that we have yet to learn anything about... and that will be scheduled for release at the end of the year.
That was my thought, as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2007 : 16:46:46
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| Only book I see is Anauroch...or is there something else coming in December no one knows of yet? |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 17:24:35
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| not that I'm aware of, but I would love to see a Book of Fey |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2007 : 20:44:16
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| It is at this time that I must return from my Realms hiatus and say that a Realms-centered source of info on fey would be, ... inspiring, truly, I would be moved to tears of joy, my eyes are glistening at the thought of it... |
ShadowJack |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 04:07:24
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| Isn't there some WoTC articles on fey in the forgotten realms? |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 04:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
Isn't there some WoTC articles on fey in the forgotten realms?
There was a series of fae articles by Gwendolyn FM Kestrel, but they were not at all setting-specific. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 03:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
Isn't there some WoTC articles on fey in the forgotten realms?
There was a series of fae articles by Gwendolyn FM Kestrel, but they were not at all setting-specific.
thats probably what I was thinking thanks |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2007 : 21:39:02
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Now I'm wondering which product will contain Fäerie lore. 
This thread is EXCELLENT! I can't believe I overlooked it up untill now. KEJR, much of what you said is exactly what I've been working on - so much so it's scarey! 
Gray and I started discussing other aspects of Fäerie (planar) over at the WotC forums, but since I interrupted the original intent of his thread, I decided to move the discussion here where it belonged.
What was discussed there can be veiwed here -
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302068&page=9
It begins toward the botom of the page, and continues in greater detail on the next.
So where were we? We were looking into some connection between Ladinion and Langdarma, and were trying to place the original Fey homeland of Toril, before the episode of the Black Diamond.
I thought the Hanya Maut Wasteland was perfect for Ladinion (it can be seen clearly in the Ronin Challenge maps, available for free download from the Wizards site. Gray feels that the Katakoro Plateau, the home of the fallen kingdom of Guge, is a better location. Both sites are close together, and tie-in nicely to the eastern spirit (Fey) world. In fact, there are several races Elf/spititfolk/Fey unique to the region.
In fact, 'The Path', the religious beliefs of most of Kara-Tur, may even be a hold-over to a time when the ancient Fey walked this region, and may very well be a 'humanized' form of their own religion. Also, consider - 'The Path' in RAW appears to have originated with the Shou. However, there are several 'hints' in source that the religion may have originated further west, and perhaps south (most of those 'hints' are in The Horde material, and relate to Ra-Khati). The western version of The Path includes Padhrasattvas, which are the "8 million gods" of the Eastern branch, and are much closer to 'nature spirits' then true gods. This is just one more indication that this area is somehow connected the ancient Fey.
We even discussed some parrallels in that other thread between Selune/Titania and Shar/Queen of Air and Darkness, and the War of Light and Darkness.
The Shou (lung) peoples were interlopers, who migrated to Kara-Tur from the west (unless that is changed in the GHotR). The Shou passed through the more western lands FIRST, and could have easily picked-up any traditions from nations such as Ra-Khati, Tabot, or Guge (under different, older names, of course). The fact that the Shou passed through these areas, and that most of Eastern Kara-Tur was relatively empty before the Shou came is something I have always wondered about. Were they seeking lands that had not already been settled by someone? The only races that seemed to dwell there in ancient times all appear to be related to the Fey (spirits)! The Hengeyokai, the Maraloi, the Maviddi, the Shan sao, Nats, the P'oh, the Spititfolk themselves... the list goes on and on.
So we have a vast region that was relatively devoid of human, demi-human, and humanoid races, but chock full of Fey races, in ancient times. On the other hand, we have the Fey, who according to canon were one of the Creator races, but for some strange region felt compelled to leave Faerûn and create their own demi-plane. The very names are similar sounding - Faerûn/Fäerie - leading once again to some old linguistic connections between Old Ælvish and the language of the Fey. So if the Fey were the original progenitors of the Elves, as both I and KKJR believe, that lends some credence, and all of this leads one to the conclusion that the Elves were not truly interlopers... they just came home. 
I say a demi-plane, at least as it was originally, because it shares MANY properties with the other famous demi-plane, Ravenloft. It is not a transitive plane, yet has the ability to reach 'tendrils' into ANY other plane. Instead of grabbing individuals, as RL does, it creates temporary 'locations' that are 'in-sync' with another plane, existing in both at the same time. There are several locations in RL that exist both there and in their original planes, so that sort of ties in.
So what does everyone else think? Was Fäerie originally located on Toril? Is Ladinion still there?
Inquiring minds want to know. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jun 2007 03:31:06 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 23:42:58
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I was just looking at something in the Monster Manual V, and it sparked an idea tied to what I had posted earlier in the thread. I had mentioned Grummsh being an unseelie fey of some kind that ended up leading a band of unseelie sidhe that "devolved" into his orc followers.
Now, way back in FR5 The Savage Frontier, it was mentioned that the High Forest orcs worshiped an evil version of the Master of the Hunt from Celtic lore. Here is where the crazy comes in:
What if Grummsh was one of the first unseelie to become a "Master of the Hunt," way back in the mists of antiquity. Back then what mortal beings existed likely weren't much of a challenge, so his prey might have been seelie and unaffiliated fey of all kinds. This could have easily brought him into opposition with Corellon, a seelie knight or powerful personage at court.
Thus, the High Forest orcs, in this case, actually worship a more ancient incarnation of Grummsh, from when he was one of the first Masters of the Hunt.
The myths and stories of Grummsh that many are used to, such as the old, "drawing lots with the gods of lands" story from 1st edition's Unearthed Arcana likely spread from the more civilized orc population that came through the portal during the Orcgate wars.
It might also explain why some orcs have an affinity for Malar, who embodies many of the traits that the early Grummsh might have had. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 20:51:41
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If I ever complete my article entitled The Tablets of Destiny, which I had originally promised to Alaundo and then to Dagnirion (LordKarsus at WotC boards) for his Elven Netbook.
Basically, they are a set of ancient tablets, relics really, made of some unknown metal, and rescued from the Tintageer by a group of Dark Elves shortly before the city sank. They appear to span a period of 7000 years, with three tablets per millenium. The final twentyfirst tablet is missing (never completed?). What is carved on the tablets is a series of fables, ancient tales of the Elves BEFORE they left Fäerie. What is on them would be considered heresies by the Seldarine and Orcish Pantheon, and even the Anti-Seldarine would want to see them destroyed.
They tell the tale of the early years of a pair of brothers, fraternal twins, who rose to greatness amongst the Elves. They were both the children of a mystrious being known only as Danu, but they had different fathers. Corellon was the son of Frey Larethian, Lord of the Liosalfar, and Gilgallon, brutish son of Maelachai Wa’Niie, Lord of the Svartalfar. They both made the mistake of trusting (in Corellon's case loving), a dark-elven lass by the name of Lilith, who was secretly the daughter of the Queen of Air and darkness. Gilgallon got the nickname Gru'mass, which in ancient high-Elven means "Feral Spirit" (just like Gru'agach means feral tribe in the same tongue  ).
If you can figure out who all the players are, it is an ancient tale of love and betrayal, of brother against brother, and of a war that shook the very heavens.
Contoversial, to say the least.
The tablets are ancient, but of unknown origin, so it is impossible to tell how much is truth and how much is merely myth. It is also a mystery as to who created them, and why.
Does that fit into any of what you have, KEJR? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2007 20:56:08 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 20:57:58
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That dovetails fairly nicely with some of the conjecture about Grummsh and the like. And I really like the idea of Araushnee being tied to the Queen of Air and Darkness in some capacity, especially with the legend of the Spider Queen that was mentioned in The Magehound.
You know, if we keep coming up with theories like this, it won't be hard to figure out why the gods don't like time travel . . .  |
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 21:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So what does everyone else think? Was Fäerie originally located on Toril? Is Ladinion still there?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I definitely like the idea, MT. It seems to make more sense that if the Fey were indeed a creator race, Toril would be their original home. After all, the other creator races all originated on Toril - why would the Fey not? And you're right, Faerie does seem to share more characteristics with a demiplane than a transitive plane. Good work.
I've also been following your discussions on the WotC forums about the Utter East and Kara-Tur, and I like how the discussion of Faerie ties into it. You should definitely bring this up on those forums, I'd love to see what others think of it. I will read the "Order of the Planes" thread when I get the chance - you guys all seem to know waaaaaay more about this stuff than me, but I'm eager for a chance to maybe offer a little something to your discussions. After I catch up on reading all of this stuff, I'll try to contribute.
And I like your idea KEJR that the orcs were originally Fey as well - gives them a nice twist and helps explain why the elves and orcs have such animosity for one another. Plus, the idea that Corellon is an ascended Fey seems like such a cool notion. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 21:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by David E
And I like your idea KEJR that the orcs were originally Fey as well - gives them a nice twist and helps explain why the elves and orcs have such animosity for one another. Plus, the idea that Corellon is an ascended Fey seems like such a cool notion.
I just thought it was fun to think that Corellon might have had a tryst with Morwel, and Morwel made him look at the universe and says, "look at good and evil in opposition all over the place, don't you care?"
Women have a way of changing your perspective, and besides, I like the idea of Morwel seducing allies to the side of good . . . literally. |
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Faerie in relation to Abeir-Toril
