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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 13:57:45
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Sages,
I have very little knowledge of the cosmology of the realms. Maybe I should say that I do not know much about how the planes or demi-planes work (or how the planes are dealt with in current 3e realms-lore. My question is this; has the plane of Faerie or the Seelie Court(or whatever it might be)been dealt with in relation to the Realms? I am assuming that the location of the Seelie Court is on the "world" of Faerie, so where does Faerie lie? This is about as clear as mud...
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ShadowJack |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 14:11:50
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ok,
first I don't think the world "Faerie" had anything to do with the Seelie court..the Sellie court id the name of the group/Pantheon of good/neutral fey creatures...the elves are of the Seladrine (elvish gods)...though the Seladrine and Seelie court are very friendly.
There is also the group/Pantheon of evilneutral fey creatures, the Unseelie Court
The problem is the fey/faeries are deeply based of of Earth mythology and many RPGs and designers have utilized the fey and their courts in different ways (liek the confusion are centaurs and elves really fey). Another example of a different use of the fey are in the 2E Ravenloft supplement, The Shadow Rift (which I thought was pretty good 
so...
the world "Faerie" (the planet the moon and sun elves came from):
Great Wheel : a world in another crystal sphere (same Prime plane)
Great Tree : an alternate prime plane (i.e. like Oerth)
The Seelie Court:
Great Wheel : a wandering Realm of the goddess Titania that travelled from Ysgard to Elisium (maybe not Elysium  )
Great Tree : probably in Arvandor
The Unseelie Court:
Great Wheel : the plane of Pandimonium
Great Tree : dunno |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 14:43:28
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Yet another problem that arose from the Great Tree.
Faerie, the world the elves came from, is, IMO, a world on the same plane of existence. The entire thing gets more and more convoluted the deeper you dig. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 14:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Yet another problem that arose from the Great Tree.
Faerie, the world the elves came from, is, IMO, a world on the same plane of existence. The entire thing gets more and more convoluted the deeper you dig.
though I do like the Yuir and Aglraond very much, that area has always been a bit different in flavour concerning fey too...the leves there always seemed like "feyish" elves han the regular D&D elves...the Moonsheas have the same flavour to me too...
and I get slight vibes from 3E that "Faerie" may become another transition/mirror plane, like the Shadow Plane...but that is just me speculating |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 14:51:23
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| The option with fey becoming a "mirror" plane is rather close to the original concept of the faery world, IIRC. If this is the case we'd bring the entire thing closer to "reality" but it would also imply that there'd be either several million different Faeries, or one, which could be used as another pathway to other worlds. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 14:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The option with fey becoming a "mirror" plane is rather close to the original concept of the faery world, IIRC. If this is the case we'd bring the entire thing closer to "reality" but it would also imply that there'd be either several million different Faeries, or one, which could be used as another pathway to other worlds.
**very minor camouflaged spoiler**
wasn't it like that in Darkwalker on Moonshea? The "fairy world" the Unicorn goes into with the faerie dragon? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:03:06
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| Kalin, forgive my lack of understanding. I thought that Faerie was the name of the world that the Fey all came from. (I did not remember that in EC's book Faerie was the home of the Sun Elves) The great tree loses me... However I believe what you are telling me is that the Seelie Court's location wanders from plane to plane? Reality to reality? Prime Material to Prime material? I know nothing of the planar material... If you could not tell... I will re-read Doug Niles Darkwalker for pertinnet info. I agree with your feelings on the feel of the Moonshaes and Yuir... |
ShadowJack |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:10:05
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Faerie was the world the Elves (sun and moon) came from, via portal.
Faerie is also the realm of the Seelie court. I'm not sure whether it wanders from material plane to material plane, but the gates to Faerie (the fey world) seem permanent, as can be seen in the first Moonshae trilogy.
In real world mythology those gates opened during specific cycles of the moon etc. So if special conditions are met you can cross into the fey world. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:15:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Kalin, forgive my lack of understanding. I thought that Faerie was the name of the world that the Fey all came from. (I did not remember that in EC's book Faerie was the home of the Sun Elves) The great tree loses me... However I believe what you are telling me is that the Seelie Court's location wanders from plane to plane? Reality to reality? Prime Material to Prime material? I know nothing of the planar material... If you could not tell... I will re-read Doug Niles Darkwalker for pertinnet info. I agree with your feelings on the feel of the Moonshaes and Yuir...
sorry Shadowjack...look in Candlekeep's Code of Conduct about the changes in the Outer Planes in 3rd Edition..
but basically there is an outer plane for every alignment (LG,NE,CN,etc.) and a plane for the transition of alignments (LN(g), CE(n), etc.) and they were lined up like a great wheel, with the true neutral plane in the "donaught (sp?) hole". each plane is infinite and endless and the gods lived in whatever plane they liked..laking their finite homes (Realms). Every Planet was found on the "Prime Material Plane" and the basic elements (earth, air, fire, etc.) were in the Inner Planes...the Astral Plane seperates the Outer Plane and the Prime, the Etherial Plane seperates the Inner Planes and the Prime
in 3rd Ed. the outer planes for the Forgotten Realms changed so now there are only a few "free" planes left and the reast of the planes are practically each god's whole realm...and it is shaped liek a great tree, with the plant Toril being at the base of the tree and each plane branching off the "trunk" of the tree
the Seelis/Unseelie court used to be just a god's realm...and the world that the moon and sun elves fled was just that, another world other than Toril (found on the Prime plane)..there was no real connect between the two that I know of...
the big question is, is how they are all set up now in the 3E "Great Tree" planology...look in the Demonweb thread to see the discussion on how the changes in cosmology have affected existing Realms and D&D canon |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:56:59
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| Thank you Kalin and Mace! I appreciate the info! |
ShadowJack |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 18:16:03
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| no problem |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11806 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 20:08:13
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| Also check out Magic of Faerun, where they mention some kind of fey "portals". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 20:27:48
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For lack of an overabundance of official infos about Faerie, I recommend a look at Bryon Wischstadt's Faeries from Bastion Press. As always, there are some less than thrilling ideas in it, but all in all it's an interesting take on the subject.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 21:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
For lack of an overabundance of official infos about Faerie, I recommend a look at Bryon Wischstadt's Faeries from Bastion Press. As always, there are some less than thrilling ideas in it, but all in all it's an interesting take on the subject.
Zorro
It's a good book. I just wish it was also available as a pdf.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 23:46:10
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| I do have that particular tome, it is good, but like you say, there is stuff in it I would not use. I like the Fey Knight prestige class... Combining some of that material with Gwen Kestrel's FEY Articles from the WotC website has given me some great ideas for a Fey campaign set in the High Forest. |
ShadowJack |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 01:17:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
For lack of an overabundance of official infos about Faerie, I recommend a look at Bryon Wischstadt's Faeries from Bastion Press. As always, there are some less than thrilling ideas in it, but all in all it's an interesting take on the subject.
Zorro
It's a good book. I just wish it was also available as a pdf.
I'll second the FAERIES tome. It's a great resource, and was even partly edited by our own Steven Schend. Who had this little bit to say:-
"For those interested in another take/option on Faerie, there is a D20 option from Bastion Press y'all might want to take a look at.....
Bryon Wischstadt, long-time Realms fanatic and all-around good guy, wrote this guide to Faerie (both the realm/plane and inhabitants) and yours truly edited it alongside him. As both of us (and Jim Butler, Bastion's president, CEO, and chief cook and bottle washer) all have a deep and abiding love for the Realms, there's nothing in there that wouldn't work in terms of using Faerie as a source for ancient elves (or other more modern threats). It's a mix of old folklore and modern conceptions of Faerie and even stats up Old Man Winter, Father Time, and Father Christmas if you want such.
Steven
Who apologizes profusely for plugging a product but it seems relevant to the discussion at hand"
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 03:40:02
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A Plane of Faerie is detailed in the Manual of the Planes pp.210-211. I believe this plane (or something very close) is intended to be the Plane of Faerie that attaches to the Forgotten Realms cosmology.
The Plane of Faerie is a unique outer plane that is tied very closely to and coexistant with the prime material plane. You do not need to cross through a transitive plane to get to Faerie. It has the characteristics of both a transitive plane and an outer plane.
It strikes me that the Plane of Faerie is similar in many ways to the Spirit World of Kara-Tur. I wonder if they may be tied together in some ways. I half-way wonder if the Spirit World of Kara-Tur actually is the Plane of Faerie, or at least that portion of it which is/was coexistant with the lands of Kara-Tur. Maybe they are still connected. Or maybe they broke apart long ago. It might explain why the "Astral" plane of Kara-Tur appears so different than that of Toril.
Faerie was once even more closely linked to Faerun, but since the heyday of the Sylvan creator race some 30,000 years ago, it has slipped into obscurity and has fewer ties than it once had. There seem to be portals and weak spots where you can step directly from Faerun through to Faerie.
There are fey crossroads mentioned in Magic of Faerun that may pass through Faerie, although those provide more of an instantaneous method of travel, like a portal, so it is unclear if they are actually connected to Faerie or not--although I like to think they may be somehow.
In the spelljamming campaign setting there was a prime material world called Faerie in a crystal sphere name Faeriespace. The world itself was arrayed like a tree, with worldlets hanging from the trunk like Christmas ornaments. You could travel from world to world within that sphere by climbing the branches of the tree, much like the celestial world tree in the Faerunian cosmology.
We do not know if Tintageer, where Faerun's Sun & Moon elves came from, was located within Faeriespace, or within the Plane of Faerie, or some other world also called Faerie. But we know Tintageer was an island located on a world called Faerie. I think it may be possible to reconcile the lore of Faeriespace with the Plane of Faerie if it turned out that the crystal sphere (or the solar system) of Faeriespace were located in the Plane of Faerie. But that's just an idea I am tossing out there for consideration.
The dark elves (or at least some of them) appear to have migrated from a different world than the Sun & Moon evles, a world called Threnody (see the Kiaransalee entry in Demihuman Deities). The location of Threnody is as mysterious as the location of the world of Faerie.
We know that the Plane of Faerie is tied to Faerun because it is mentioned in several sources. One mention is in Serpent Kingdoms p.55, where it says "The fey have never dominated the continent; they chose instead to rule Faerie, an otherworldly realm loosley connected to Faerun." It goes on to say that "The fey still rule Faerie, although the ties between their realm and Faerun are growing faint."
In the Realms Bestiary Volume 2 (located at this link: http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html) it is mentioned that the spell Dismiss Natures Ally "allows you to force fey native to the Material Plane to Faerie, the extraplanar home of the fey (evil fey are affected, but do not seem to end up in Faerie; where they end up remains a mystery), despite the fact that fey are not extraplanar creatures." I find this little tidbit very tantalizing. It seems to indicate that the Plane of Faerie is not home to the Unseelie fey, and that the Queen of Air & Darkness and the dark faerie court may reside in yet another planar home. In 2e they lived in Pandemonium, I believe, but in 3e we do not know where they abide, it is a mystery.
I should mention that Bryon Wischstadt's Faeriesis highly recommended for filling in some of the missing lore about Faerie. It has a beautiful map of Faerie, lots of lore, just a really great book. It was edited by noted Realms designer and author Steven Schend. And Ed Greenwood himself consulted with Bryon about the book. Bryon wanted to make the lore in the book as compatible as he could with Realmslore, even though it is not an official WotC or Realms book.
There is free Faeries pdf preview you can download about the book here: http://dragonwing.net/downloads/e-faeries.zip it gives you a beautiful glimpse of what you can find inside.
There is also an Errata pdf for Faeries, with still more intriguing lore you may find useful. Check that out here: http://dragonwing.net/downloads/Faeries_errata.pdf |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 03:45:19
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| Awh thanks Gray Richardson you always have the most thoughtful and insightful lore and responses! |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 05:12:44
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Thanks, Von Raven, nice of you to say.
You know it occurs to me that Ed Greenwood has said that he uses, or at least once used the Wood Between the Worlds (from the Narnia Chronicles) as a transitive plane in his home Realms.
It occurs to me that you could harmonize that lore with the plane of Faerie somehow. My current thinking is that Kara-Tur's Spirit Plane and the plane of Faerie and the Wood Between the Worlds were all an ancient conception of the Astral plane, a more primal one, given form by the unique psyche/worldview/mindset of the Sylvan creator race which seems to be shared in part, or at least compatible with, that of the Elven peoples.
I don't know if it is better described as an alternate conception of the Astral, or perhaps an alternate layer of the Astral Plane. The Astral Plane was not previously thought to have layers, but I don't see why it could not have layers, and if so it might serve to explain things about Faerun's cosmology.
Now in support of my theory I will simply point out that it is well-established that the Astral plane is a plane of mind and spirit. The outer planes, which are shaped entirely by belief, are formed within the Astral. No reason to think that belief or conception could not influence the look of the Astral itself.
Perhaps the alien mindset of the Sarrukh and Batrachi, and even Faerunian humans created a bifurcated Astral, one that looks like the geometric, outerspace-esque, Dr. Strange kind of Astral that we are more familiar with, and the Sylvan version of the Astral that is known as Faerie in the west and the Spirit World in the east and appears as an otherworldly version of the more common natural world.
I am thinking the Spirit World of Kara-Tur may look like it does because of the preponderance of fey and spirits there, the lack of Sarrukh and Batrachi, and even the humans in Kara-Tur, many of whom are animists, may have a mindset closer to the ancient Sylvan peoples, and so their Astral has remained true to that conception of the Astral.
The Wood Between the World could just be those portions of Faerie where the planar portals are more numerous (manifesting as quicksilver shimmering pools of water).
I believe that the terrain of Faerie somewhat loosely echoes the terrain of Faerun. The terrain of Kara-Tur's Spirit World most definitely echoes the terrain of Kara-Tur. I am curious if one traveled from Kara-Tur to the Spirit World, and then traveled westward within that plane, would one come to Faerie? Is this too far fetched an idea?
Are these two planes linked together? Are they actually halves of the same plane? If not currently, could they ever perhaps have been linked together in the distant past?
Just some speculation on my part, but it's an idea I have been nursing for some time. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 17:01:45
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Gray,
I like to make the lore in my campaign match and make sense... Your explanation of the Celestial bureaucracy and the Spirit World makes sense as it ties the western "Faerie" together nicely with the Spirit World of Kara-Tur. Also, you know how the spirits of Rashemen (while a very neat concept) did not quite fit with the "established" fey lore of the rest of Faerun? Your explanation works admirably here as well, since east and west are meeting and mingling in Rashemen. Now, think of the Unseelie from Elaine Cunningham's Halruaa novels, (Kings & Counselors?)if there was one plane of Faerie that touched on various portions of Faerun and Kara-Tur, with the veil seperating the two being thinner in some places than others, then it would explain all of that very nicely. If you buy into Bryon Wischstadt's book, the lands of the Seelie and Unseelie inhabit the same plane, so that if you enter the wrong Fey Crossroad or portal you might end up in an evil part of Faerie... such as in the barrows/mounds that EC talks about in her books... This also leads to some interesting possibilities and a good explanation for the Spirit Folk; they are actually Fey or Half-Fey... Very nice. This also allows an easy way to introduce half-fey into the realms... To answer your question, I think they are halves (or quarters) of the same plane. Maybe it is the perception of the visitor as to whether it takes the form of the more Eastern Spirit World or the Faerie of Faerun. Remember the Fey put the "Fae" in Faerun... I really need to stop that, it is not that funny... |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 17:10:17
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Sages,
Doesn't Elaine Cunningham in her Kings & Counselors series (I hope that is what that trilogy is called)hint that the Illithyri (sp?)were originally influenced by the fey of the Unseelie Court? As per Gray's statement that Faerie and Faerun used to be more closely linked, consider this; the further back into Faerun's past you go, the closer you get to the original Sylvan Creator Race and the more contact you might find between the Fey of Faerie and inhabitants of Faerun. |
ShadowJack |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 01:22:31
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Oh, very definitely. While Serpent Kingdoms says that the Sylvan creator race never ruled the continent and never really had a definitive end to their reign, it is clear that they have largely retreated from Faerun into Faerie, much as the elves retreated to Evermeet.
Now the sylvan peoples populate the woodlands and secret parts of Toril. Although the FRCS in the history section says that they once had a great civilization in Faerun that has since declined. "It is belived that their civilization fragmented after a great plague created by a draconic or demonic power." I have always found that sentence intriguing. Does it mean the civilization fell apart? That the people split off into factions? Or does it mean that the Sylvan creator race itself literally fragmented thus creating all the many varieties of Fey that we know today: the sprites, dryads, uldras, etc. I think there must be some very interesting lore yet to be told regarding this plague.
As for oriental fey, there are a bunch of fey creatures in the 3E Oriental Adventures book that have the fey type but that are very different than the faeries of western Faerun. I imagine that Kara-Tur is chock full of nature spirits and fey. Many of these bear no resemblance to medieval or victorian-era European notions of faeries. I am not sure they could even be divided up between Seelie and Unseelie, which I see as more political divisions of fey. Kara-Tur fey would probably be no more likely to call themselves Seelie or Unseelie than they would call themselves Whigs or Tories (though some may be members of the Green party  )
Anyway, as you move west from Kara-Tur the fey start to look more like the faeries we are familiar with, but no surprise that Rashemen, which kind of straddles the two worlds has fey that feel more eastern than western.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 01:26:41
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Why is it that elves inspire theories in my brain? Something to ponder later on . . .
Alright, we know that the elves of Tintageer (the forerunners of the moon, wood, and gold elves of Faerun) lived on a world that they referred to as Faerie, and that some major calamity happened that caused them to leave that world. We know that they considered lythari to be legendary creatures as well (all from Evermeet: Island of Elves).
We know that the lythari cross back and forth and travel around Faerun through portals that sound a lot like fey crossroads, and that they call the place "on the other side" Faerie (from Silver Shadows).
We also know that there was a dark elf known as the Spider Queen that Lolth stole the title of that was known to have learned the song of the Unseelie, and that dark elves are rattled by the song of the Unseelie (from the Magehound).
We know that the powerful fey species known as LeShay had some dealings with the Imaskari a LONG time ago in Faerun's history, which indicates that the LeShay had some interest/interaction with Toril, and that LeShay appear much like elves but are much more powerful and are fey creatures (from Darkvision).
The Seelie Sidhe and Unseelie Sidhe are essentially celestial/fiendish elves (from the Manual of the Planes, 3rd Edition; The Dragon Compendium Volume One has some templates on Seelie and Unseelie creatures that might work better for this representation, but the point is that the Sidhe are "like elves, but more fey and otherworldly" and essentially at the top of the food chain of fey, unless you count LeShay).
Thinking on all of this, here is a wild theory to tie a bunch of this information together:
Oberon, Titania, etc. are not actually gods, but the most powerful Seelie creatures in Faerie are more akin to Celestial Paragons/Archfiends than actual gods (I beleive this is how they are presented in the Faeries product already mentioned in this thread, and I kind of like this interpretation). According to the theory, Corellon and some of the other elven gods actually were part of the most powerful ranks of the Seelie court. Over the years, Corellon and his friends became more and more concerned with "important" things, such as the rise of evil in planes like the Nine Hells, the corruption of the Prime Material Plane, and the attitudes of mortal creatures and even immortal creatures towards the more fragile balance of nature in the Prime Material Plane (as opposed to the studier wilderness of Faerie and the outer planes).
(It has been theorized that Corellon was exposed to a deeper philosopy, and was moved to see, for example, the archdevils of Hell as a threat, during a dalliance that he had with Morwel of the Eldadrin court. While the two were only breifly lovers, they remained steadfast allies)
Increasingly, Corellon didn't fit in with the happy go lucky Seelie nobles, and on top of that, his philosophies started to inspire many of his Sidhe followers to see him as some kind of holy "prophet" or even more than that. Eventually, Corellon and a few of the other elven gods became gods, due to the worship of many of the Sidhe in Faerie.
The Seelie court did not wish to cast them out, especially since they shared a hatred of the Unseelie court and the Queen of Air and Darkness, but at the same time, they didn't want such serious concerns to intrude upon the eternal revel of Faerie. Corellon met with Oberon and Titania and formed his own realm, Arvandor, and moved it out of Faerie.
The Sidhe no longer felt like they could live in Faerie and ignore the rest of the cosmos, but they felt unworthy to live in Arvandor, and so, using powerful magic, they pulled their homes from the plane of Faerie and used this patch of Faerie to create an entire world, which they came to know by the same name as the plane they originated from. They hoped that by living in the regions of the planes not as isolated as Faerie, they could better see how to resist the spreading power of evil, and appreciate the more fragile nature of nature in planes that were not confirmed in their eternal spendor. To make nature last in such a place would be a true accomplishment, the Sidhe though, and it would be a stinging rebuke to the forces of evil to create such a place free from corruption as well.
During this time, a refugee from the Unseelie court came to Corellon seeking a new home. This refugee was Araushnee, who the Queen of Air and Darkness considered too dangerous, cunning, and ambitious to keep in her court. As the goddess of fate, she became the patron of one particular group of Sidhe that left Faerie, but instead of creating their own world, as Corellon's followers had, these elves migrated to a world that already existed, known eventually as Threnody.
Another group of Sidhe, the forerunners of the lythari, were moved by Corellon's words, but could not bear to leave Faerie completely, and used their magic to create portals between the young prime material planes and Faerie, or began to use the portal already created by other fey that were interested in the Prime as well.
With time, the Sidhe dwelling outside of Faerie began to become more and more mortal. Though still increadibly long lived, they knew death, and their souls, in death, would be gathered by Corellon and brought to Arvandor, where they would be given a glorious new body, and live eternally as exalted creatures. Even the lythari, who tried to remain at least part of the time in Faerie, began to become mortal creatures.
Another Unseelie Court member, a general named Grummsh, who had often clashed with Corellon, grew jealous of Corellon's godhood and his new followers and plane of existance. Grummsh set out to find unseelie sidhe whom the Queen of Air and Darkness and made mortal and banished, and he mixed their blood with that of predators and fiends, and their forms twisted. They became the orcs, and they grew to worship their new master.
Eventually the High Magic that the sidhe used to create Faerie began to fail, and they could not maintain the magic they once worked. at one point in time they worked these magics as immortal inheritors of the magic of the planes, but now they worked magic, however intuitively, as mortals, with a limited scope and sense of time. The elves in the various regions of Faerie (the world) did not realize that the entire world was destabilizing, but rather that massive upheavals were occuring on "localized" scales that they could no longer tame with their magics (as such upheavals occured every few thousand years, only to be turned back). Thus, the elves of Tintageer knew that their home was doomed, but not that their world was. In fact, many in Faerie had forgotten that Faerie was named after the plane that hit has been spawned from. Eventually, Faerie (the world) was not so much destroyed as it was reabsorbed back to Faerie (the plane).
Somewhere around this time the disaster caused by Kiaransalee occured on Threnody, and the elves of that world spread to many others to escape the hordes of undead (thus dark elves spread out to Toril and the other Prime Material worlds).
The LeShay had already been active on Toril, and they may well represent the "fey" creator race in their own influence.
From here, more or less, the events in Evermeet, Island of Elves takes off, since this sets the stage for what occured there. The elves that came to Toril during the latter part of the novel would have been elves that migrated from Faerie from another of the doomed continents of that world. They lythari lived much of their lives in Toril, but retreated into Faerie via the crossroads whenever Faerun proved too dangerous for them.
And finally, the star elves may have come from a different part of Faerie, near the time when the other elves came from Tintageer. Its obvious from the Last Mythal books that in the far elven past the star elves were known to the other elven races. It also stand to reason that the Star Elves might have used a modified version of the magics used to create Faerie itself, many generations removed, to try to create the Sidleyuir, but due to the same limitations thier forbears on Faerie had, they couldn't make the plane as stable as they may have liked too. At any rate, the star elves, while in Faerie, may have become somewhat less enamored of Corellon's involment in the grand scheme of things, and began to look back into their fey heritage, thus their less devout stance. Dispite this, there were far too curious about the "real world" and still had a deep respect for Corellon and hatred of foul things like the Baatezu to abandoned his vision entirely. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 01:55:54
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KEJr,
I really like this! It makes logical sense. That would explain why the elves are still called "fey". It fits with (and ties together)all the various races and groups. It works for me. If I ever run a campaign this in-depth this will be the mythos I operate it under... |
ShadowJack |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 02:21:56
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Lots of interesting ideas in this thread.
I've had the opportunity to reread the "Crossroads and Backroads" section of Magic of Faerun in depth of late and noted one interesting fact: While it's clear that non-fey are instantaneously transported from one crossroads to another (much like a conventional portal), it's possible to extrapolate that some fey (and possibly some druids or bards) can enter the backroads at other locations and possibly move about the backroads as if they were a separate place. Are they in fact moving through Faerie?
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 02:29:47
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Thats the way I have run with it Eric, and part of my last campaign had to do with some evil fey twisting the backroads around a bit to create their own little pocket of Faerie to trap unwary travellers.
I also had the idea that the lythari might be able to use the crossroads to travel, but can "stay put" in their little pockets of Faerie where they might have some "rest stops" as well, largely based on how their portals worked and where they led in Silver Shadows. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 02:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Thats the way I have run with it Eric, and part of my last campaign had to do with some evil fey twisting the backroads around a bit to create their own little pocket of Faerie to trap unwary travellers.
I also had the idea that the lythari might be able to use the crossroads to travel, but can "stay put" in their little pockets of Faerie where they might have some "rest stops" as well, largely based on how their portals worked and where they led in Silver Shadows.
Interesting idea on the lythari. I'll have to go back and reread that bit in Silver Shadows.
Anyhow, assuming it survives the editorial cut, an upcoming product has a small discussion of backroads and crossroads.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 05:03:37
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I strongly agree with you that the backroads and crossroads are traversing the plane of Faerie. And it would be very cool if certain bards and fey could use the crossroads to enter Faerie.
I really look forward to reading more lore on the subject in that upcoming product you mention.
And KnightErrant, I really like your ideas about the way stations and twisting the crossroads to make traps.
One thing I am curious about is the crossroads guardians. I wonder if they are some kind of elemental (maybe one of the Nature Elementals from Realms Bestiary v.2) or a fey who volunteers to bind himself to the crossroads on the Faerie side, or some other kind of spirit? Or maybe they are actually living fey who watch these crossroads in shifts, perhaps a whole clan of fey on the Faerie side sponsors a particular crossroads and accepts responsibility to make sure that it is manned with a guardian 24 hours a day, but rotating them in shifts. Surely there is some interesting lore there to tell about how the guardians came to be. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 05:18:47
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I never developed what they did in their "off time," but my PCs ran into quite a few of them, since the druid in the party had a book detailing various fey crossroads. I described each one differently, only keeping their general traits (humanoid shape, huge size, etc), and the rest I made up to fit the particular crossroads (some were blue skinned with white hair and electricity running through them, some had bodies that looked like they were filled with stars, so that they looked like the night time sky, etc).
Each one had particular interests that had to do with the crossroads they watched, and thus if you were trying to convince them to let you pass, it helped to know what interested them (one was obsessed with gnomish humor, so the PCs brought a gnomish bard to help with that one, because the guardian didn't think gnomish jokes translated well into common). |
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Faerie in relation to Abeir-Toril
