| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:06:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Well,
The two that wrote that don't like the seperate cosmologies and so they wrote it as if they two cosmologies were still the same of 1e/2e, which is why you see Beshaba in the Abyss in FC but not in the Abyss in the FRCS/Player's Guide.
 are they allowed to do that in R&D ?
Shrug,
Wizards never corrected them or fixed the "mistakes", so I guess so?
Indeed.
And it's not like this is the first time cross-referencing problems, between core D&D books and setting-specific sources like FR, have occured.
Or within FR to FR material. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:09:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Oh,
Also the Outlands does exist in FR's new planes in some form or another since it's mentioned in Lisa's Psionic trilogy which was written in 3/3.5e's cosmology.
And it's inclusion in a future FR sourcebook will only further connect the return of the Outlands to the 3e FR cosmology.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:17:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Heck, I even connected the Nariac Domain of the Star*Drive setting to the Negative Energy Plane, along with the Harmonium from PLANESCAPE, and the Capellan Confederation from Classic BattleTech -- a new Trinity Alliance of sorts (winks at Wooly). 
The Cappies are connected to the Negative Energy Plane? Odd... Given the mental history of the Liao family, I would have expected a connection to the Far Realm. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 19:33:48
|
The gods being mentioned was curious, but it works for me since I like the 1e/2e cosmology and will keep on using it.
Still it kinda irked me...maybe someone will let Graz'zt hold a conference with himself sometime in the future... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 19:35:43
|
| Was it just a designer's whim that caused the cosmology to change? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 19:43:09
|
** SPOILER **
I just thought of another question (camouflaged)...
how does the ret-con affect the Song of Saurils storyline...the whole "Moander enslaving the saurils and marching them through the lower planes" idea...where did the saurils come from now? through the Shadow Plane? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 19:46:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
** SPOILER **
I just thought of another question (camouflaged)...
how does the ret-con affect the Song of Saurils storyline...the whole "Moander enslaving the saurils and marching them through the lower planes" idea...where did the saurils come from now? through the Shadow Plane?
Probably the same way the other races from other primes/cosmologies get to FR, which I mentioned earlier in this thread. However, we don't have any lore to states how they got there due to the planar changes. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 19:47:29
|
| If he lead them through the Shadowplane...wow...he must have taken thousands of them to only get a couple hundred through there alive. Then again, I wonder how the Imaskari(it was them or? can't remember) got the Mulhorandi...could they have drilled a magical hole through the Plane of Shadow? If so ... screw Netheril in terms of magical power, Netheril was good, but not THAT good |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 19:52:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
If he lead them through the Shadowplane...wow...he must have taken thousands of them to only get a couple hundred through there alive. Then again, I wonder how the Imaskari(it was them or? can't remember) got the Mulhorandi...could they have drilled a magical hole through the Plane of Shadow? If so ... screw Netheril in terms of magical power, Netheril was good, but not THAT good
but Netheril also spelljammed, which is also in limbo due to the change...we know there is spelljamming in 3E, but not much else |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 19:59:06
|
| Hmm... so if spelljamming was there, and it was since Evermeet showed that the flying navy was in fact based on spelljammer "technology", then the crystal spheres had to exist. And it was possible to travel from G(reyhawk) to T(oril). If the worlds aren't connected any more...where did 'em jammers fly? Through the plane of shadows? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 20:08:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hmm... so if spelljamming was there, and it was since Evermeet showed that the flying navy was in fact based on spelljammer "technology", then the crystal spheres had to exist. And it was possible to travel from G(reyhawk) to T(oril). If the worlds aren't connected any more...where did 'em jammers fly? Through the plane of shadows?
We really don't know if the crystal spheres exist. There's no point to having them any more since each Prime Material is infinite unlike in 2e when you had 1 infinite Prime that had the spheres within it.
And again, we really don't have any lore on how jammers, if they even reach the other Primes, do so. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 24 Oct 2006 20:09:37 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 20:16:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I guess this is like midi-chlorians...
 |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 01:20:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Heck, I even connected the Nariac Domain of the Star*Drive setting to the Negative Energy Plane, along with the Harmonium from PLANESCAPE, and the Capellan Confederation from Classic BattleTech -- a new Trinity Alliance of sorts (winks at Wooly).
The Cappies are connected to the Negative Energy Plane? Odd... Given the mental history of the Liao family, I would have expected a connection to the Far Realm.
::smirk::
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hmm... so if spelljamming was there, and it was since Evermeet showed that the flying navy was in fact based on spelljammer "technology", then the crystal spheres had to exist. And it was possible to travel from G(reyhawk) to T(oril). If the worlds aren't connected any more...where did 'em jammers fly? Through the plane of shadows?
We really don't know if the crystal spheres exist. There's no point to having them any more since each Prime Material is infinite unlike in 2e when you had 1 infinite Prime that had the spheres within it.
And again, we really don't have any lore on how jammers, if they even reach the other Primes, do so.
Indeed. We don't have any definitive lore about cross-setting travels regarding spelljmming as of yet. However, I still use the 2e cosmology, the Great Wheel, so the set-up of SJ in 2e still exists in my FR campaign.
Though, the potential for Eric, or any of the other game designers, who are looking to drop any further references into future 3e Realmslore, still exists. However, given what Eric has said in the past about trying to include SJ-ing lore for fans while not leaving non-SJ-fans in the dark, may suggest a limit to the overall amount of SJ-lore that can be dropped into 3e FR. In other words, not every FR fan, now, is familiar with SJ and not every FR fan is familiar with the elements of the Unhuman Wars, the IEN, or spelljamming that have been dropped into previous editions of the Realmslore. The opportunity for game designers to use specific SJ references from 2e and from 2e FR in 3e FR will likely be somewat dictated by these facts.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 25 Oct 2006 01:21:15 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 01:24:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I guess this is like midi-chlorians...
Okay, so next we'll be wanting to know the midi-chlorian counts of the various Chosen in the Realms.
::I'm kidding, of course. I actually don't have that much problem with the concept of midi-chlorians.:: |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 08:50:18
|
Well, as we started off with the Demonwebs ... essentially, I look at the topic from the Forgotten Realms perspective. What we knew of cosmology for the Realms we knew from FR sourcebooks. Whether there is or was a Core all in one cosmology is of no interest to me. Once I need rules or info on planes, people, monsters from places not mentioned in more detail in FR source material, I go back to Core Material on the same matter. And even in this case, as a Realmsian, FR material always overwrites core stuff, if it is up to date and feasible - e.g. the new Demonwebs.
Hence, if there is mentioning of Graz'zt in an FR book, I check what is known about him in FR material (e.g. For Duty and Deity) and update that info to 3E/RE with material from TBoVD or FC I. That relates to "technical info" only though, for I see these books more like tools to work with rather than stuff to draw omni-true conclusions from. That would be much like the debate of The Name of the Rose, i.e. whether Jesus owned the purse (and the money within) he carried, or whether he just carried it.
Was that different in times gone by? Maybe so. These days, there are more important things to dwell upon for a Realmsian DM. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gćđ a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerűn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 09:20:24
|
| Yes, there are more important things to dwell on as a Realms DM, but who says my thoughts work on a priority basis? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 12:39:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hmm... so if spelljamming was there, and it was since Evermeet showed that the flying navy was in fact based on spelljammer "technology", then the crystal spheres had to exist. And it was possible to travel from G(reyhawk) to T(oril). If the worlds aren't connected any more...where did 'em jammers fly? Through the plane of shadows?
We really don't know if the crystal spheres exist. There's no point to having them any more since each Prime Material is infinite unlike in 2e when you had 1 infinite Prime that had the spheres within it.
And again, we really don't have any lore on how jammers, if they even reach the other Primes, do so.
There is of course the possibility of one Prime with many Crystal spheres in it. And that's about as far as I've thought about it. Curse these stupid working-hours turning my brain to porridge! |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 13:03:46
|
Bottom line is this:
we can safely assume that the artificial change to the various cosmologies in worlds that existed in 1st and 2nd edition cannot be accomodated fully. Too many things have been integrated in the lore of any of these worlds. The change has been done with little thought to the consequences.
Examples:
- Bigby's, Mordenkainen's, Leomund's, Melf's spells. Basically these spells cannot exist anymore, at least under the names, in any area except Oerth. Maybe that's the reason the spells have been generalized in the Spell Compendium.
- The Wizards Three could have met, but the meeting would've been considerably more difficult, and dangerous, considering that the direct route through the Astral Plane has been obliterated.
- There are several Realms wizards that have, at least for a time, lived on Greyhawk etc.
- Emilio Haversack could've joined the followers of Finder, but the circumstances would have been increasingly difficult, especially since Sigil is kinda hard to reach now, and why would any Krynn deity be interested in stealing a Faerun deity's power if that deity might not even know of said deity's existence.
- The Mulhorandi pantheon, which I think was said to actually be Earth's Egyptian pantheon, might not have made it there, same as the Immaskari breaching the distance with regular gates.
There may be more but that's the stuff I can come up with at the moment. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 13:33:17
|
Interesting idea
Moander is an ascended mortal who was originally an Imaskari Wizard , he used the knowledge the Imaskari empire used to bring the Mulan to Toril to bring the Saurials to his lair in the Abyss...........
I wonder what the earliest reference to Moander as deity is...... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 14:58:27
|
Good question.
I think all these established facts "prove" that the tree concept can be seen as a world view, more than factual cosmology. It would make more sense...if you "believe" the cosmos is structured that way you can only follow the given "paths".
The Great Wheel still exists for Toril, but the "believers" don't know that |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:01:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Good question.
I think all these established facts "prove" that the tree concept can be seen as a world view, more than factual cosmology. It would make more sense...if you "believe" the cosmos is structured that way you can only follow the given "paths".
The Great Wheel still exists for Toril, but the "believers" don't know that
eesh, now there is a Pandora's box opened  ...maybe the "Great Tree" canon rule can be explained away as more "Clueless" theorizing and the "Great Wheel" can be re-established as cosmology canon  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:03:41
|
| My point exactly. This way the old way is still around and can be used...personally I won't use the Tree anyway, but still |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:23:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
My point exactly. This way the old way is still around and can be used...personally I won't use the Tree anyway, but still
alot of people feel like that, even some of the designers but the fact is future products will be developed using the great tree...and more holes in older Realms canon will be punched by the Great Forest cosmology...probably making things even worse
and like the mods said, there is a slowly evolving push back to the Great Wheel (like Ed Greenwood saying there is still a Limbo, and the possibility of the return of the Outlands)
come to think of it, it probably would have been better if the Realms were totally divorced from the "core" D&D, even from Sigil...it would ahve made things easier |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:30:07
|
| Aside from the obvious problems with the Realms' history where you had direct Wheel influence |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:32:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Aside from the obvious problems with the Realms' history where you had direct Wheel influence
true enough...but sometimes it is better to close the door fully on an idea then to leave the door open a crack |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:38:19
|
The problem with that door is, its opening has been integrated in the Realms from the very beginning. Unless you wanna revise the entire history of various places/races it is impossible to do.
Sure, you could say that Moander didn't get the Saurials yada yada but that is a really sucky solution. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:44:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem with that door is, its opening has been integrated in the Realms from the very beginning. Unless you wanna revise the entire history of various places/races it is impossible to do.
Sure, you could say that Moander didn't get the Saurials yada yada but that is a really sucky solution.
I know...but as I think about it the "Sigil Connection" and the "Shadow Plane Pathway" always seem create that tiny speck of hope that somehow the canon cange can be explained logically, no matter how convoluted the explaination may be
if the Realms were totally severed from the rest of the "core", then it would be easier to move on and form pure 3E Realmsian explainations/ret-cons/solutions, that total revision that is really needed due to the cosmology ret-con
I'm not saying I like the ret-con, I'm just saying that it would be a smaller mess if they would have completed the severance of the Realms |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 25 Oct 2006 15:45:44 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:49:59
|
| That would basically mean rewriting the entire thing, much like Marvel did with their universe a couple years ago (Thankfully I didn't read X-Men anymore at that time! I would have gone berserk!!!) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:54:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
That would basically mean rewriting the entire thing, much like Marvel did with their universe a couple years ago (Thankfully I didn't read X-Men anymore at that time! I would have gone berserk!!!)
I know 
but what is worse, a one-time super rewrite (maybe a big Realms "Manual of the Planes) when the conversion was made...or years of unanswerable questions and eroding canon? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Lolth's demonweb pit & FC1
