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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 15:22:37
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I know that the Realms cosmology in the official sources is different from the rest. The main issue is that in Fiendish Codex 1 we have the "original" Demonweb Pits depicted...
If the Realms funny tree thing is a separate entity, and when travel to various other planes is still possible through the Plane of Shadows, is it possible that characters can encounter a different Lolth?
The entire affair leads to a bunch of confusion, now that the multiverses are separated.
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 15:48:37
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Well, given the changes to the cosmology, and the fact that there can now be many different versions of a standard deity in various other cosmologies, it is possible for characters, who've left Realmspace, to perhaps eventually learn of, or even met, an alternate Lolth in another setting's cosmology.
My "Planar Explanation" section in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct helps alleviate some of the confusion surrounding the 3e planar changes. See the URL in my sig.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Oct 2006 15:49:57 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
So one would basically also have two Graz'zt running around?
Or hundreds of them since each would be seperate and different in each cosmology. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:03:47
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As I said... given the separation of the cosmologies now, in 3e, there are likely multiple interpretations of various planar beings and deities.
An interesting note about the various demon and devil lords of D&D... Monte Cook recently *speculated* (on his own message boards) that, given the overall 3e planar changes, the hierarchies of both the Nine Hells and the Abyss may be very different in some cosmologies of alternate settings. In other words, there may not be a Graz'zt in one version of the Abyss, while in another, Graz'zt has existed much as he has in the Great Wheel cosmology.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:12:50
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As an old school comic book geek, alternate reality versions of the same characters are fairly easy for me to grasp, since Marvel and DC have mined this material for years. The main thing that got me when I first started back up in 3rd edition was that there didn't seem to be an explanation for why the cosmologies were separate (remember, I had been gone from the hobby for years). It wasn't until I came back that I started hearing some people point out that the Die Vecna Die module might have been the "excuse" for alternate realities.
If this is the case, none of the novels or game products that have refered to the old cosmology are actually "wrong" or invalidated, but simply happened before Vecna "revised" everything. Kind of like how the Crisis on Infinate Earths worked at DC, except that instead of contracting everything into one timeline, it separated everything from one cosmology into multiple ones.
One of the things that I am interested in is less the major planar entities (I get that when the cosmologies splite there were multiple gods with similar background, multiple archfiends, etc.) is weather or not any of the planar organizations are present in Faerun's cosmology. In other words, Sigil is still connected to everywhere, through various gates . . . are there Doomguard in Faerun's Abyss? If there are, do they realize that they are in Faerun's Abyss, or do they once in a while wander into a planar gate and not realize that they in the "alternate" versions of the plane they are used to.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:15:00
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Truth be told, this basically means there'd have to be a seperate edition of the Fiendish Codex for every plane of existence...kinda silly.
Then again, maybe you have universal Graz'zt conventions each year or so where all the Graz'zts of all dimensions meet and compare notes, much like the Green Lantern council in DC comics...sounds kinda silly, really |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
Edited by - Mace Hammerhand on 24 Oct 2006 16:16:55 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:15:46
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| Oh, before I forget, I am very interested to see what they do with Asmodeus in the FC II, mainly because the Guide to Hell might cause some strange things if it is considered "canon." I would definately have to say that the Asmodeus in the Realms cosmology would be much different than a "Guide to Hell" Asmodeus, which is essentially just a front for a LE "overdeity" type creature. Obviously the Realms Asmodeus couldn't have the same origin unless Ao is REALLY keeping some secrets. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh, before I forget, I am very interested to see what they do with Asmodeus in the FC II, mainly because the Guide to Hell might cause some strange things if it is considered "canon." I would definately have to say that the Asmodeus in the Realms cosmology would be much different than a "Guide to Hell" Asmodeus, which is essentially just a front for a LE "overdeity" type creature. Obviously the Realms Asmodeus couldn't have the same origin unless Ao is REALLY keeping some secrets.
Who knows...Ao is Ao, he didn't even interfere when Cyric went nuts... so who knows |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh, before I forget, I am very interested to see what they do with Asmodeus in the FC II, mainly because the Guide to Hell might cause some strange things if it is considered "canon." I would definately have to say that the Asmodeus in the Realms cosmology would be much different than a "Guide to Hell" Asmodeus, which is essentially just a front for a LE "overdeity" type creature. Obviously the Realms Asmodeus couldn't have the same origin unless Ao is REALLY keeping some secrets.
I though that to!  
I was dumbstruck when I first bought Guide to Hell...since you never hear a whisper of that canon anymore I figured the decision was to drop that canon source
but then again in Serpent Kingdoms the coatl goddess is slain... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Truth be told, this basically means there'd have to be a seperate edition of the Fiendish Codex for every plane of existence...kinda silly.
Then again, maybe you have universal Graz'zt conventions each year or so where all the Graz'zts of all dimensions meet and compare notes, much like the Green Lantern council in DC comics...sounds kinda silla, really
While I like the train of thought that Monte was on is very interesting, and most likely true, I would also say that since Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms were very closely tied, that the Abyss/Baator/Mount Celestia/Arvandor sections of the cosmology are very similar to one another, and unless something is directly contradictory to how things work in Toril, that you can assume that the two line up pretty well.
I have wondered what would happen if two planar entities from two separate cosmologies got together and started plotting. I also wanted to point out that there should be some "artifacts" left over in the planes showing that at one point in time that there was ONE cosmology. Perhaps some entities might decide that it would be better to try to reunite them.
(Still trying to come up with a "Superboy Prime" style villain for this) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In other words, Sigil is still connected to everywhere, through various gates . . . are there Doomguard in Faerun's Abyss? If there are, do they realize that they are in Faerun's Abyss, or do they once in a while wander into a planar gate and not realize that they in the "alternate" versions of the plane they are used to.
It's hard to be completely definitive here... simply because we really don't have anything official on the factions of PS in 3e, besides what has been printed in the various DRAGON articles. And we have very little to work with in terms of how the factions now relate to specific campaign setting cosmologies like the Great Tree of the 3e FR, especially post-Faction War.
It's entirely possible that the Doomguard, or any other PS faction for that matter, are at least aware of alternate cosmologies and have visited them from time to time. PS lore does cover examples of members of factions travelling to alternate dimensions and cosmologies (as they were interpreted in 2e). I can't see any reason why that would specifically change in 3e. In fact, given the planar changes, this would likely be a more frequent occurence. And, one thing we can almost be certain of, is the fact that the Fraternity of Order have catalogued and regularly study any and all knowledged regarding "alternate" cosmologies and planar structures.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
While I like the train of thought that Monte was on is very interesting, and most likely true, I would also say that since Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms were very closely tied, that the Abyss/Baator/Mount Celestia/Arvandor sections of the cosmology are very similar to one another, and unless something is directly contradictory to how things work in Toril, that you can assume that the two line up pretty well.
I have wondered what would happen if two planar entities from two separate cosmologies got together and started plotting. I also wanted to point out that there should be some "artifacts" left over in the planes showing that at one point in time that there was ONE cosmology. Perhaps some entities might decide that it would be better to try to reunite them.
(Still trying to come up with a "Superboy Prime" style villain for this)
maybe it is more like "The One" movie...where each Grazzt will start killing eachother until there is one "mega" Grazzt left in the whole multiverse |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:24:29
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| That's the problem. FR, according to the retcon, was never a part of the Wheel/Ring. That's why it's a retcon and there's no in game reason to explain the change because there doesn't have to be since its a retcon. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
That's the problem. FR, according to the retcon, was never a part of the Wheel/Ring. That's why it's a retcon and there's no in game reason to explain the change because there doesn't have to be since its a retcon. :)
And that's why some of us always cringe when we remember the fact that there's been no specific in-game explanation for the changes. 
There's a reason I still keep the Great Wheel intact in ALL my campaigns -- regardless of whether they're FR-based, DL-based... or set in RAVENLOFT.
Heck, I even connected the Nariac Domain of the Star*Drive setting to the Negative Energy Plane, along with the Harmonium from PLANESCAPE, and the Capellan Confederation from Classic BattleTech -- a new Trinity Alliance of sorts (winks at Wooly). 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Oct 2006 16:32:15 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:32:06
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I guess that is why I was referring to it as a Crisis on Infinate Earths moment, and I should probably clarify for anyone not into comics. During the Crisis, everything was mashed into one reality, and this change affected time and space, meaning that there was one reality, from the begining of time.
In other words, Vecna separated the cosmologies, and this separation spread through out the timeline, meaning that it retroactively occured at the begining of time. So while it happened at a given point in Ravenloft/Greyhawk/Sigil's timeline, the effects reached backwards and forward in time.
Most mortals would never know that things have ever beend different, and depending on how powerful a planar creature is, they might know that something major once happened that caused ripples through reality, but only a handful of creatures REALLY know what happened are reality settled into its new foundations (Lady of Pain, Vecna, etc.) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:38:50
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Nonetheless, some novels are canon that deal with the planes extensively: Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck, which clearly lay out that Tymora is hanging with a DL deity on the same plane.
So basically what the retrofit does is eliminate such events since they could not have happened? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:41:25
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| All I would say is that the parts of the novel that do not depend on the Great Wheel would still have happened. The heroes could have still travelled to Sigil, but the Outlands aren't part of the cosmology, and Xvim could have stilled tricked Lathander, but how might have been a bit foggy (I do beleive that Xvim tricking Lathander was mentioned in some 3/3.5 product). |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:41:53
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| Oh, one other thing, the Mulhorandi gods...they came from another place in the prime... do they now come from another place in the prime similar to another place in the prime that is again similar to another place in the prime? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Nonetheless, some novels are canon that deal with the planes extensively: Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck, which clearly lay out that Tymora is hanging with a DL deity on the same plane.
So basically what the retrofit does is eliminate such events since they could not have happened?
They probably went to Dlance's seperate cosmology through one of the planar crossroads like the Shadow plane, the Great Tree, or the Infinite Staircase. Obviously, since they are deities, they couldn't use Sigil. :)
The Mulhorandi probably came from a different Prime Material since each cosmology has thier own Prime Material's now as well. Greyhawk has one that is different then FR's, and those two are different then Dlances, etc.
Yes, the Staircase does still exist since it's mentioned in the Player's Guide for Selune and Shaundakul. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 24 Oct 2006 16:50:14 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:44:09
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| Does the infinite staircase still exist on Toril? It was lore after all, see For Duty and Deity |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:46:56
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| And I'm sorry Knight but that isn't what the game designers have said to us and to others when we've discussed the planar changes with them. It was just a pure retcon and FR has never ever been connected to the Wheel/Ring. There is no in game explaination for this change and you to believe that the old cosmology never existed for FR. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:53:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Does the infinite staircase still exist on Toril? It was lore after all, see For Duty and Deity
Indeed it does.
It was referenced in PGtF. Another subtle hint that WotC may eventually be tieing the cosmologies back together...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Oh, one other thing, the Mulhorandi gods...they came from another place in the prime... do they now come from another place in the prime similar to another place in the prime that is again similar to another place in the prime?
The Mulhorandi probably came from a different Prime Material since each cosmology has thier own Prime Material's now as well. Greyhawk has one that is different then FR's, and those two are different then Dlances, etc.
As I recall, both RoF and LEoF presented some speculation on this.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Oct 2006 16:57:50 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
So the FC is junk for the Realms???
Well,
The two that wrote that don't like the seperate cosmologies and so they wrote it as if they two cosmologies were still the same of 1e/2e, which is why you see Beshaba in the Abyss in FC but not in the Abyss in the FRCS/Player's Guide.
So, it's not junk if you want to use the old cosmology. If you use the new cosmology then you have to do some work to get it to fit since some of the deities don't belong in the planes that they are listed in in FC according to FR's cosmology that is printed in recent FR sourcebooks.
Guess that's why FC is core and not FR. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
So the FC is junk for the Realms???
I wouldn't say it's "junk" for the Realms... though you will need to do some work if you're looking at the planar details contained within for use in your FR campaign which may or may no use the Great Tree. That is, given the overall planar changes and deity shifts...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Oct 2006 17:03:51 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:01:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Well,
The two that wrote that don't like the seperate cosmologies and so they wrote it as if they two cosmologies were still the same of 1e/2e, which is why you see Beshaba in the Abyss in FC but not in the Abyss in the FRCS/Player's Guide.
 are they allowed to do that in R&D ? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Well,
The two that wrote that don't like the seperate cosmologies and so they wrote it as if they two cosmologies were still the same of 1e/2e, which is why you see Beshaba in the Abyss in FC but not in the Abyss in the FRCS/Player's Guide.
are they allowed to do that in R&D ?
Shrug,
Wizards never corrected them or fixed the "mistakes", so I guess so? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:04:34
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Oh,
Also the Outlands does exist in FR's new planes in some form or another since it's mentioned in Lisa's Psionic trilogy which was written in 3/3.5e's cosmology. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:05:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Well,
The two that wrote that don't like the seperate cosmologies and so they wrote it as if they two cosmologies were still the same of 1e/2e, which is why you see Beshaba in the Abyss in FC but not in the Abyss in the FRCS/Player's Guide.
are they allowed to do that in R&D ?
Shrug,
Wizards never corrected them or fixed the "mistakes", so I guess so?
Indeed.
And it's not like this is the first time cross-referencing problems, between core D&D books and setting-specific sources like FR, have occured.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Oct 2006 17:06:07 |
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Lolth's demonweb pit & FC1
