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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 20:50:51
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I need to know to what linguistic family Talfir (the language of Ebenfar) belongs. Crypt of the Shadowking doesn't state it, and the article published a few years ago in Dragon on the linguistics of Faerun doesn't mention any sort of Talfirian language family (at least not by that name).
Would someone knowledgable about Ebenefar and/or Faerunian linguistics please help me out on this? What sages (other than the ones mentioned in Crypt) would be likely to have some knowledge of Talfir and be able to read a complex document written in that language?
Are there any small population groups which still speak Talfir as their native language?
The assistance of the learned is appreciated.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 20:52:58
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| there is that arcticle in Dragon Magizine 4...it is the definitive source on Realms languages (IMO)...search out the word "languages", that may help... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 01:59:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I need to know to what linguistic family Talfir (the language of Ebenfar) belongs. Crypt of the Shadowking doesn't state it, and the article published a few years ago in Dragon on the linguistics of Faerun doesn't mention any sort of Talfirian language family (at least not by that name).
Would someone knowledgable about Ebenefar and/or Faerunian linguistics please help me out on this? What sages (other than the ones mentioned in Crypt) would be likely to have some knowledge of Talfir and be able to read a complex document written in that language?
Are there any small population groups which still speak Talfir as their native language?
The assistance of the learned is appreciated.
As I recall... and I'm going from memory here, the Talfir spoke a human tongue, Talfiric, which was based on the Draconic alphabet (RoF).
Talfiric also had some relationship with Alzhedo, though I tend to think that was in respect to elements of both Alzhedo and Talfiric being incorporated into a Tethyrian dialect of Common.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Oct 2006 02:33:45 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 20:25:26
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| I'm thinking your memory is correct here sage. Not much more documented than that, the only possible linguistic links one might infer is from the names of the deities that came from the Talfiric pantheon, or from possible surviving place names or even family names, but these will likely be rare or might be more or less translations. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 01:26:23
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Aye.
I'm going to take a look through RoF again anyway, just to be sure. I may also browse the Talfir tidbits in SK for any further possibilities on this.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 25 Oct 2006 01:27:28 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 09:00:07
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| I always envisioned Talfiric as being related somhow to the old language of the Tethyrian peoples, this has no basis in canon however. I never really saw how all the different Tethyrian peoples gave up their language and came to use chondathan and alzhedo either, but that's one of my pet grumblings so I will let that rest. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 04:00:58
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In my old Dragon Magazine Annual, I placed Telfir as a dead member of the Chessen family and Akalaic group. Of course, when the article was simplified for 3E a lot changed....
CHESSAN (ą la Greek: Ęolic, Cyprian, Modern Greek)
Chessentic: Auld Chessic/Alambic*, Thresk*, Chessic (Western, Threskian, Ixinosian), Alambit (Altumbelan, Coastal/Reach)
Akalaic: Arkian*, Eshowan*, Telfir*, Akalan (Swag creole, Proper Akalan), Akūrian (Samarachian, Tashlutar, Jungle Akūr), Shaartan (Northern Laker, Southern Laker, True Shaartan, Reacher, Lapaliiyan, Tharsult), Sespechian (Plains Sespechian, Hlondethan creole, Western/Lizard creole, Middle/Proper Sespechian)
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 09:12:07
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| I see now that I will have to dig up that old dragon magazine somehow; this is just what I have been looking for. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 19:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
In my old Dragon Magazine Annual, I placed Telfir as a dead member of the Chessen family and Akalaic group. Of course, when the article was simplified for 3E a lot changed....
CHESSAN (ą la Greek: Ęolic, Cyprian, Modern Greek)
Chessentic: Auld Chessic/Alambic*, Thresk*, Chessic (Western, Threskian, Ixinosian), Alambit (Altumbelan, Coastal/Reach)
Akalaic: Arkian*, Eshowan*, Telfir*, Akalan (Swag creole, Proper Akalan), Akūrian (Samarachian, Tashlutar, Jungle Akūr), Shaartan (Northern Laker, Southern Laker, True Shaartan, Reacher, Lapaliiyan, Tharsult), Sespechian (Plains Sespechian, Hlondethan creole, Western/Lizard creole, Middle/Proper Sespechian)
A HA! Therein lies my difficulty: I was looking for "Talfir" and passed over "Telfir" when skimming your article.
To be certain that we're all on the same page (literally), was that in "Linguistics of Faerun," or is it the article on pidgins and creoles (which I'm not sure that you wrote -- I don't have it at hand)? |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 21:44:51
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| I only wrote one article on languages, creating a linguistic atlas titled "Speaking in Tongues" in Dragon Magazine Annual 4. The article broke down all the languages into families, groups, subgroups, and dialects, and presented a regional breakdown or atlas of where each language was spoken. At the time, I gathered up every official reference I could find, added in much of Bobby Nichols' work (with his permission), and expanded on both. Telfir was one of the official languages. The whole thing was eventually simplified into what was presented in the 3E FRCS. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 21:08:03
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I only wrote one article on languages, creating a linguistic atlas titled "Speaking in Tongues" in Dragon Magazine Annual 4. The article broke down all the languages into families, groups, subgroups, and dialects, and presented a regional breakdown or atlas of where each language was spoken. At the time, I gathered up every official reference I could find, added in much of Bobby Nichols' work (with his permission), and expanded on both. Telfir was one of the official languages. The whole thing was eventually simplified into what was presented in the 3E FRCS.
Okay, we're definitely writing of the same (awesome) article.
Tom, about what percentage of the modern Chessentan language overlaps with Telfir? How hard would it be for a Chessentan reader to understand a text from Ebenfar? What categories of words would be most likely to be similar (e.g. farming vocabulary, animal husbandry vocabulary, boating and littoral vocabulary, family relationship terms, arcane words, etc.)? Is there a strong resemblance between Ebenfar's bardic poetry and old Chessentan poetry?
Your assistance on this topic is greatly appreciated!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 21:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I see now that I will have to dig up that old dragon magazine somehow; this is just what I have been looking for.
here you go...Paizo still has some issues of Annual #4
http://paizo.com/store/magazines/dragon/issues/specialIssues |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 18:33:21
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Okay, we're definitely writing of the same (awesome) article.
Tom, about what percentage of the modern Chessentan language overlaps with Telfir? How hard would it be for a Chessentan reader to understand a text from Ebenfar? What categories of words would be most likely to be similar (e.g. farming vocabulary, animal husbandry vocabulary, boating and littoral vocabulary, family relationship terms, arcane words, etc.)? Is there a strong resemblance between Ebenfar's bardic poetry and old Chessentan poetry?
Your assistance on this topic is greatly appreciated!
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They are very different languages and not even in the same group. Think of languages in the same line like comparing French, Spanish, and Latin and languages outside of that like comparing English and French. Aside from recognizing the alphabet, there would be virtually no mutually intelligible words. At best it would be like an English speaker with no training in French, aside from some of the obvious Latin and French influences over the decades and occasional phrase like c'est la vie or merci, trying to read French. That said, I don't know that I ever gave your other questions much thought, but given the great differences, I would say it would be a bit of everything, the occasional word or phrase that's evolved.
And that said, I don't have the article in front of me and its been a while, so I'd go with what the article said. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 20:50:56
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Okay, we're definitely writing of the same (awesome) article.
Tom, about what percentage of the modern Chessentan language overlaps with Telfir? How hard would it be for a Chessentan reader to understand a text from Ebenfar? What categories of words would be most likely to be similar (e.g. farming vocabulary, animal husbandry vocabulary, boating and littoral vocabulary, family relationship terms, arcane words, etc.)? Is there a strong resemblance between Ebenfar's bardic poetry and old Chessentan poetry?
Your assistance on this topic is greatly appreciated!
****************
They are very different languages and not even in the same group. Think of languages in the same line like comparing French, Spanish, and Latin and languages outside of that like comparing English and French. Aside from recognizing the alphabet, there would be virtually no mutually intelligible words. At best it would be like an English speaker with no training in French, aside from some of the obvious Latin and French influences over the decades and occasional phrase like c'est la vie or merci, trying to read French. That said, I don't know that I ever gave your other questions much thought, but given the great differences, I would say it would be a bit of everything, the occasional word or phrase that's evolved.
And that said, I don't have the article in front of me and its been a while, so I'd go with what the article said.
Thanks, Tom, you've been a big help. My questions are answered! |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2006 : 22:38:00
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| No problem. Glad to be of help. |
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Azkyroth
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 23:41:42
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| Apologize for the late posting; Paizo now lists Dragon Annual #4 as currently unavailable and I'm very interested in the linguisic elements. Can anyone suggest another legitimate source for it that's likely to be fruitful? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 23:47:00
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I'd try ebay, amazon, nobleknight.com, or dragonstrove. Beyond them, I'm not sure.....
Noble has 2 copies atm for about 4 and 4.50 American. It's under the special issues catagory under TSR and then Dragon.
quote:
Originally posted by Azkyroth
Apologize for the late posting; Paizo now lists Dragon Annual #4 as currently unavailable and I'm very interested in the linguisic elements. Can anyone suggest another legitimate source for it that's likely to be fruitful?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 10 Aug 2008 23:49:56 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 02:35:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'd try ebay, amazon, nobleknight.com, or dragonstrove. Beyond them, I'm not sure.....
Noble has 2 copies atm for about 4 and 4.50 American. It's under the special issues catagory under TSR and then Dragon.
I echo the interest of my fellow scribe Azkyroth here and would furthermore like to know if it's possible to buy an electronic version of said Dragon Annual article. I'd hate to have to wait an eternity for a magazine to be sent all the way to Iceland if I could buy a PDF file somewhere.
I didn't see a way to do it on paizo.com, but I've been wrong about this newfangled Inter-series-of-tubes thing before... 
I saw Dragon magazines online, but only after #300something. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 23:50:29
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I got mine from an eBay seller two years ago. Look for a seller who is vending old Dragonm Magazines as obsolete gaming material instead of "collectibles" (@@@@@!!!!) -- as if 4.New.Coke made them rarer and more valuable than they were two months ago ... which they ain't.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Talfir language
