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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2002 : 01:51:29
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I wonder if anyone could tell me how to figure a PC's challenge rating a'la the CR of a monster...
Any thoughts would be greatfully appreciated...
email replies to dr_maxwell@hotmail.com
"Wine is only sweet to happy men." Keats
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Velsharoon
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2002 : 12:51:50
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Challenge Rating=Characler level+level adjustment(if any)
for example a 3rd lvl human fighter has a cr of 3, a 5th lvl aasimar paladin has a cr of 6(aasimar has a level adjustment +1)
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2002 : 23:20:32
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I am still confused however, as such a system leads one to believe that a 14th level human fighter with no CR bonus(CR 14)is a match for four 14th level characters (CR 14), which makes no sense...
"Wine is only sweet to happy men." Keats |
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Ergeheilalt
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2002 : 02:02:04
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I see your problem. Lets say you typical
party make up (14th level Fighter, Mage,
Cleric, and Rogue). If you throw only one 14th
level fighter at the party, he's gonna be
dealt with fairly easily. NPC/PC CRs are not
not going to match unless the levels of magic
match. Really, a CR is not ment to match the
party level. A CR should match the level of a
single character... so a CR 14 Mage vs. A CR 14
fighter would be pretty evenly matched. But a
CR 14 Fighter vs. a party of 4 14th level
characters (effectively a CR of 18) is gonna
be a one sided fight.
Check the EL (encounter level) table in the DMG.
Hope that helps
Lord Ergeheilalt
High Sorcerer of Thimtona
Journyman Adventurer of Faerun |
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Ghost
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2002 : 14:52:30
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To my knowledge, an encounter with a CR/AL equal to the average party level, is not meant to potentially kill the party, but to tax their resources (be those spells, items, or hitpoints). A number of these encounters COULD kill the party, simply by draining enough resources.
For a challenging encounter, the CR/AL would be 1 or 2 higher than the average party level. |
The way of a superior man are three-fold;
virtuous, he is free from anxieties;
wise, he is free from perplexities;
bold, he is free from fear. ~ Confucius
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2002 : 20:11:58
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well put and very intriguing, Ghost...
The reason I started this little question in the first place was a discrepency I noticed in the CR system. My level 11 bard, level 1 ranger had quite a bit of trouble with a polar bear (CR 2) but had almost no trouble dispatching something MUCH stronger (CR 7 or 9) in a sparring session I had with our DM prior to actually gaming. Now, of course, each individual monster one fights presents its own set of challeneges as well as carries its own weaknesses (i.e- a troll is easily dispatched if you have fiery arrows, not so much if you don't.).
This however, leads to the question of calculating in reverse......how does one figure the CR of a single PC? I don't think anyone has figured out how to do that yet.... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2002 : 08:44:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ArionElenim
well put and very intriguing, Ghost...
The reason I started this little question in the first place was a discrepency I noticed in the CR system. My level 11 bard, level 1 ranger had quite a bit of trouble with a polar bear (CR 2) but had almost no trouble dispatching something MUCH stronger (CR 7 or 9) in a sparring session I had with our DM prior to actually gaming. Now, of course, each individual monster one fights presents its own set of challeneges as well as carries its own weaknesses (i.e- a troll is easily dispatched if you have fiery arrows, not so much if you don't.).
This however, leads to the question of calculating in reverse......how does one figure the CR of a single PC? I don't think anyone has figured out how to do that yet....
Sorry for skipping over your last question here... but how did you measure the sparring session. Was it only a hand-to-hand combat session? Or were there other options in defeating the opponent?
If it were only fighting the creature toe-to-toe, the roll of the dice can be of much more influence... |
Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 04 Oct 2002 09:40:18 |
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Ghost
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2002 : 09:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ArionElenim
well put and very intriguing, Ghost...
The reason I started this little question in the first place was a discrepency I noticed in the CR system. My level 11 bard, level 1 ranger had quite a bit of trouble with a polar bear (CR 2) but had almost no trouble dispatching something MUCH stronger (CR 7 or 9) in a sparring session I had with our DM prior to actually gaming. Now, of course, each individual monster one fights presents its own set of challeneges as well as carries its own weaknesses (i.e- a troll is easily dispatched if you have fiery arrows, not so much if you don't.).
This however, leads to the question of calculating in reverse......how does one figure the CR of a single PC? I don't think anyone has figured out how to do that yet....
Thanx for the praise 
Hoping I understand your question correctly, I'll try to answer it.
If you want a drain-adventure for one character, use encounters 2 CR lower. These should drain about 25% of the resources, so after four encounters, the adventurer should take some rest.
A challenge-adventure would use an encounter equal to the character level. However, circumstances might effectively increase an CR. Consider a mage/sorcerer faced with a challenge where he can't use his magic, or a warrior who can't reach his opponent, and ran out of missile weapons. |
The way of a superior man are three-fold;
virtuous, he is free from anxieties;
wise, he is free from perplexities;
bold, he is free from fear. ~ Confucius
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Edited by - Ghost on 04 Oct 2002 09:51:11 |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2002 : 20:00:12
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I still don't pretend to understand how this all works. I thought I did but I'm not so sure now. 
I was reading "The Forge of Fury" last night (an adventure for 3rd level characters). In the list of NPCs at the back there is a 5th Level Duergar female fighter who is listed as CR6, a 4th level Duergar male mage who is listed as CR5, a male troglodyte level 4 sorceror who is CR5 and a young black dragon who is CR4.
Now call me old fashioned but I can't see how a single duergar fighter can be more of a challenge that a young black dragon.  |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2002 : 17:02:34
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I'll try to answer two questions at once, if possible....
First of all, good point. The CR of a creature also takes into account how easily-charmed they may be or how vicious they are and willing to fight anything that comes along. Thanks for the realization!
The afore-mentioned sparring session was indeed, just that - combat-based. In other words, my ever-so-charismatic bard did not try to hypnotize the troll or convince him to let him be, or make him believe that that huge waterfall over there is really a very fun water slide...this could have DRASTICALLY changed things....
Secondly, the CR of a creature can be dramatically changed by things such as items and armor....for instance, an elven mage level 3 is just that...until he gets the staff of the Magi in his hands....at which point,he is an extremely formidable foe....
On top of which, a duergar is tough to calculate as his abilities as a level 1 fighter are generally better than those of a human of the same level.
As to how said duergar could be stronger than a black wyrm (no matter what age), I do not know....unless the dragon was cowardly, crippled, insane or something that would seriously inhibit its prowess...
Ugh........
If ANYONE out there has ANY IDEA as to how to calculate a single PC's CR...PUH-LEASE write up something here for our perusal.... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2002 : 17:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by ArionElenim
The afore-mentioned sparring session was indeed, just that - combat-based. In other words, my ever-so-charismatic bard did not try to hypnotize the troll or convince him to let him be, or make him believe that that huge waterfall over there is really a very fun water slide...this could have DRASTICALLY changed things....
Exactly the point I was trying to make. THe bard's strength is not in physical combat. It is a combination of his abilities, probably the most powerful of which is his Bardic Music
quote:
Secondly, the CR of a creature can be dramatically changed by things such as items and armor....for instance, an elven mage level 3 is just that...until he gets the staff of the Magi in his hands....at which point,he is an extremely formidable foe....
On top of which, a duergar is tough to calculate as his abilities as a level 1 fighter are generally better than those of a human of the same level.
You're quite right on this point. A 3rd lvl mage with a staff of the magi is something unusual, and in this case the staff should be taken in account when calculating the CR.
quote:
As to how said duergar could be stronger than a black wyrm (no matter what age), I do not know....unless the dragon was cowardly, crippled, insane or something that would seriously inhibit its prowess...
As in the above example with the mage, it could be that the duergar in question had some equipment advantages, and the small balck dragon could indeed suffer from something that made it weaker. Just looking at the CR only, and then make a comparrison might produce strange results. Yet taken in account what's in the description...
Then again, WotC authors have been known to make errors, they're supposed to be human after all.
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a question for all and sundry
