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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  07:37:26  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
now i know that in the fall of myth drannor a perticular mage starts throwing magic at a dragon egg and voila it becoms a red/blue dragon.
i theory is it possible to A)repeat that feat or B) have a total different way of producing hybrids via the "natural" way???

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  08:26:13  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Onr dragon species happens when red and blue are bonking...there was a nice article on this particular issue in Dragon about a decade ago...there prolly has been a rehash of that later on. There also was the Dragons thingy in Dragon Compendium 1...

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  08:33:07  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
first off, whats a onr; secondly can you explain that a bit better please and thank you

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  08:50:01  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the 2E Draconomicon is a good source for cross-breeding of dragons to an extent.

One way to do a hybrid is to apply the Half-Dragon template to the one of the two sub-species.

For example a Blue-Red mix, would be a Blue or Red Dragon with the Red Half-Dragon or Blue Half-Dragon template added. This is a quick and dirty way of doing it, but effective, though can lead to some very powerful mixes.

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  08:56:57  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sooo theoreticly speaking of corse if you breeded a red/blue with a red/blue would you get a red a blue or a red/blue. sorry for the bio course

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  08:59:44  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shadowni87

sooo theoreticly speaking of corse if you breeded a red/blue with a red/blue would you get a red a blue or a red/blue. sorry for the bio course



Going with the old 2E rules, a blue and a red mixed, would make a "Purple" Dragon, which would have the stats for the Female, but have all the immunities and breath weapon of both.

Going with the 3E rules, it would have the stats for whichever you decide (most people go with the female as far as I know of), and just add the template.
So a Blue Female with a Red Male, would have a "Purple" that is a Blue with Immunity to Fire and a weak fire Cone 1/day.

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:01:48  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shadowni87

first off, whats a onr; secondly can you explain that a bit better please and thank you



Was a typo...one dragon

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:06:30  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
thank you mace. and warlockco what your saying is that you can have turqiouse pink grey and purple dragons??? thats insaine, rivaling on madness

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:07:15  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shadowni87

thank you mace. and warlockco what your saying is that you can have turqiouse pink grey and purple dragons??? thats insaine, rivaling on madness



Yeah, but it is a great way to mess with the heads of your players...

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:07:50  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gonna dig out that issue of Dragon magazine...not that I have that many...but it is stashed somewhere...

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:12:40  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sooo for a tougher question what clours come out with gem and cromatic dragons

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:14:51  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dragon 248...

and that article is based on a far older one from #65

Yellow Dragons, if the breed with blues you get green...go color wheel! This always made me wonder why Yellow dragons weren't initially in the chromatic mix since no other" mix produces yellow.
Orange Dragon, yellow and red...again yellow...kinda curious but ok
Purple dragon, red and blue bonking...

That's it for Dragon 248

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:30:51  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
once agian i ask what clours come out with gem and cromatic dragons

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:40:24  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No idea...doubt a gem dragon would willingly mate with a chromatic dragon...and rape...I dunno...the battle would be to the death. The other options are too twisted to discuss right now...

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:42:14  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
if you could email it to me that would be great!!!

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:54:32  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
email what?

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  09:57:48  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you said "The other options are too twisted to discuss right now" you can email me that

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  10:31:18  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shadowni87

you said "The other options are too twisted to discuss right now" you can email me that



Just use your imagination...

As to what color a dragon would be from a certain mixing, near as I can recall, only chromatics could mixing with other chromatics, gems with other gems, metallics with other metallics; anything else would produce a non-viable embryo, or some such, though I think Dragonlance did venture a bit more into that.

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  12:43:05  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shadowni87

you said "The other options are too twisted to discuss right now" you can email me that



Nah, I was just too sleepy to dwell on dragon rape, incest and all that when I posted it. So, would a red dragon rape a gem dragon? Too splintery IMO.

The offspring of a green and a silver dragon would probably be green-metallic, like one of them spiffy cars...

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  14:44:36  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
not quite what i ment...i ment metalic in a dif metalic and a gem an dif gem!

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  15:01:07  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never read about it, maybe you wanna check the new Draconomicon *shrug*

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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe

USA
720 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  15:04:24  Show Profile  Visit Beirnadri Magranth's Homepage Send Beirnadri Magranth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are no clear rules dictating the effects of each of these hypothetical scenarios. You and your DM should decide how to handle such an event on a case by case basis using the ideas you have about the motives of dragons the principles of magic and the biology of fantasy creatures.

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  15:07:59  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe a ruby speckled gold... then agaiin, if we have ruby speckled gold dragons women will most likely want to wear their skin... or have purses made off their leather... or shoes. That would be the hoot with the noble ladies of Waterdeep.

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  15:57:31  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Maybe a ruby speckled gold... then agaiin, if we have ruby speckled gold dragons women will most likely want to wear their skin... or have purses made off their leather... or shoes. That would be the hoot with the noble ladies of Waterdeep.



Quite so, quite so.... hmmm... nah, not worth my neck to ask some dragons to do that...

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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  16:03:16  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco

the 2E Draconomicon is a good source for cross-breeding of dragons to an extent.



the 2E Draconomicon was actually pretty specific on different dragon species breeding together...there was a % table...but usually the young ended up as eithor one or the other parent..it was rare to actually have a "mix", the mix being more of a sterile hybrid or a mutant

and the Dragon Magizine "chromatics" (yellow, purple and orange) were not the same as the Realms yellow (and purple, if you think of the Deep Dragon that way) and never were "hybrid" dragons I remember those articles more about the author playing with the color wheel to "fill up the spaces"...and they were pure genetic strains, not hybrids, just as a green dragon is not the issue of a blue and yellow dragon

so technically dragons are not like water colors, where you can just mix them together and get a new type

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36996 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  17:27:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shadowni87

now i know that in the fall of myth drannor a perticular mage starts throwing magic at a dragon egg and voila it becoms a red/blue dragon.
i theory is it possible to A)repeat that feat or B) have a total different way of producing hybrids via the "natural" way???



It must be pointed out that the dragon you're referring to was not a hybrid, as such. Garnet was, by blood, 100% blue dragon. It was all the magic that was used that changed his form. From friend Steven Schend, Garnet's creator:

quote:
Yeah, I've lost my notes as to exactly which dragon/great wyrm it was that slew Sylvallitham; anyone know/remember if I'd placed him among the slaughtered dragons down among the Lands of Intrigue? (I've been rereading those areas recently and was astonished I'd left quite a few rather ancient dragons in place and slaughtered many more younger dragons.....) I can state unequivocally that Garnetallisor was not the slayer of his mentor.

As for those "arcing bolts of electrical fire," I wanted to underscore that this critter was something special. For visual purposes, think of it like silver fire--it looks and acts a bit like fire, but inherently it's something else entirely. What exactly has yet to be statted, and I'd just as soon let GMs handle that.

If you need my opinion, I'd say it's exactly as stated--electrical fire that burns and shocks; damage is standard dragon progression of 2d8/age category but it counts as both fire/lightning while bypassing defenses designed against either one. (In other words, you're only immune to/defended against his breath weapon if you're immune/resistant to BOTH fire and lightning.)


Garnet was a wholly unique creature unlike any to exist before or since. He was a chimera of dracoforms, and the only reason he was red in color and blue in shape was this: Saeval Ammath had many secrets never revealed to elves outside of his clan, and often only to a few select members of his immediate family. Saeval's grandfather--an exiled elf who was born outside of Cormtanthor and never trod its paths--was a half-dragon, born of a silver dragon mother. He was a great tracker and wizard of Ardeep (Sure hope I'm getting my dates/names right, but I'm winging it here from half-remembered notes that don't survive; George and Eric can correct me before this thread closes. ) and patriarch of a loyal and good branch of the Ammath clan in those western woods.

Saeval came to Myth Drannor to learn more magics but also to cure a great sorrow of his own--the silver dragon (long publicly a family friend but in truth his own great-grandmother) had died protecting him and others from battle-maddened Hlondathan mages scavenging for any magics they could find (and they also took their trade caravan to be smuggling weapons and magic to the Cormanthan elves, their enemies in the Crown and Scepter Wars). Saeval preserved the dragon's soul in a brand-new kiira, and spent the next 50 years or so trying to find a way to restore her to life. He studied under many of the great wizards of Myth Drannor and COrmanthor of all races and he wandered far and wide (rumor has it he venture far onto the Great Glacier and as far south as Chondath).

When he found a blue dragon's egg in his wanderings, he magically kept it from hatching or developing, and he spent a decade of casting to alter its form into something powerful enough to house the silver dragon's soul. While he managed to match the power of the red dragons inside the form of the blue dragon and make other changes to allow for the magical transfer, he either could not or did not change the dragon's gender within its shell.

When the egg finally hatched in 348, Garnet was unique. Physically, he had to relearn everything to adapt to this new form, but mentally, (s)he had all the knowledge of her previous life. Thus, even at hatchling stage, he had access to the special abilities of a very old silver dragon (except polymorph self, as the magics used to create his new form locked him into one shape; and damage reduction, which is a function of the physical body, not the mind).

Thus, even while Garnet is now physically a wyrm, (s)he's gone into epic levels for certain special abilities. Assuming, of course, that he still exists...

Hope this explains why Garnet isn't either evil or the start of a whole new race of dragons. While one could postulate that he could mate with either reds or blues and have offspring of that hue/form, it's far more sensible (given the origin and attendant problems) to state that Garnet, while healthy in all ways, was born sterile.

Whew.... Geez, Wooly....simple email and I expected it'd be a short response, but nooo.....

Hope these answers suit folks; if not, then they're just the ramblings and wild ideas of a fellow fan (which they are, in truth, as I've no official standing with this stuff other than to say what I meant / planned when I wrote this stuff 8 years ago).

Steven

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2006 :  22:34:52  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
thank you wooly now its alot more clear to me...btw mace i thing you would be right nobility would KILL to have something like that

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  05:13:08  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
so tell me what exactly thier abilities would be???

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  06:51:03  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you own the core rulebooks?

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shadowni87
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  06:58:31  Show Profile  Visit shadowni87's Homepage Send shadowni87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes i do

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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  13:49:26  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shadowni87

so tell me what exactly thier abilities would be???



"their abilites" For dragons? Every dragon's abilities?

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
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