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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 16:22:15
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I have a casual question...are the "sea dwarves" from the 2E Port of Ravens Bluff official canon? I always had the impression it was more of a mistake that they were put there...
has anyone used ever used them?
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 16:26:35
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| I have that product at home....I haven't read it yet though....but you have piqued my interest....all I can say is that you can probably use the water race rules from unearthed arcana to adjust it to 3.5E i think (that book is also at home...don't remember all the details for the water races)....im taking a look at this though cause sea dwarves might be interesting for my campaign im running. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 16:27:58
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| oh and to answer your question....no i have never used them and i would imagine being in an official FR product means being cannon...unless more recent material states otherwise. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 16:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
oh and to answer your question....no i have never used them and i would imagine being in an official FR product means being cannon...unless more recent material states otherwise.
oh, for those without the book, the Sea Dwarf is the equivelent of a sea elf but was supposively cursed to underwater life and that they live in the Sea of Fallen Stars around the Vast and Aglarond region of the sea...they have clan life and have techniques to work metal underwater (undersea smiths)
Don't ask me where but my memory tells me there are other 2E Realms supplements (maybe it was even Dwarves Deep) that says that there is no such thing as a "sea dwarf" nor do I know of any other Realms resource that has a sea dwarf in it
I always felt that since the Sea Dwarf was introduced in a RPGA book and the fact they are not even acknowledged in the Sea of Fallen Stars book that they are not official canon...
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 13 Sep 2006 16:41:06 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 16:41:19
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
oh and to answer your question....no i have never used them and i would imagine being in an official FR product means being cannon...unless more recent material states otherwise.
I always felt that since the Sea Dwarf was introduced in a RPGA book and the fact they are not even acknowledged in the Sea of Fallen Stars book that they are not official canon...
Ah yes I forgot that it is an RPGA book....and I don't recall seeing them in Sea of Fallen Stars.......hmmm....probably not official cannon but probably a neat option. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 16:57:29
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Well, I consider this as only gossips of the elves!
Who more will appear with so wild tale? 
No, I donīt use it in my campaigns, and consider this completely unnoficial. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 17:02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Well, I consider this as only gossips of the elves!
Who more will appear with so wild tale?
Ha! I would expect an indignant reply from a dwarf!
At the very least be proud that these poor, accursed souls (in the dwarven perspective) still forge the greatest tools and arms in all of Seros 
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 17:13:14
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| Well, Ravens Bluff tried to make some sense out of all the strange things that had occurred through the years in that city and the material from RPGA, which in itself (40% adventurers or something like that wasn't there?) is a bit difficult to take seriously. Ed wrote the book, but there are many things there I would take with a grain of salt, to me the books main selling point is the Vast information. Water dwarfs are among the things I would ignore, at least in that area. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 17:26:23
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I've come across "sea dwarves" in my reasearch for my own Book on Dwarves, and as far as I can tell No they are not official cannon. As stated above they were not introduced in an official FR product but an RPGA Book. Saying that they do make for an interesting sub-race, I my consider including them based on other members reactions.
So what do you think Sea Dwarves IN or OUT? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 17:30:40
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The idea of a Sea Dwarf is not that of-putting to me personally, but not in the Sea of Fallen Stars. A race so out of the ordinary would fit better in the great sea of the South or The Ice Sea east of Sossal. Maybe a strange myth from Maztica.
If they were placed to centrally, there would be all sorts of lore-problems in my opinion best avoided. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 17:39:52
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I would include the Sea Dwarves
Rational/orgins of the Sea Dwarves:
* clans from the Seabeards in the Northern Sea of Swords that "went underwater" in their love of the ocean
* clans of dwarves that were trapped under the ocean floor during their exodus to Maztica, the caverns flooded and a sea god changed them to survive
* like the Sharlin, some sea dwarves got caught in the Tidal Gate (right name?) and were spewed into the Inner Sea
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The idea of a Sea Dwarf is not that of-putting to me personally, but not in the Sea of Fallen Stars. A race so out of the ordinary would fit better in the great sea of the South or The Ice Sea east of Sossal. Maybe a strange myth from Maztica.
If they were placed to centrally, there would be all sorts of lore-problems in my opinion best avoided.
I agree with Jorkens except I think they could ahve a place in the Sea of Fallen Stars...if there is only 1 or 2 small clans living there...small enough to be over looked...
it also makes sense as the Sea Dwarves could have taught the Malenti the art of undersea smithing... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 17:50:54
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There is room for them, I agree on that, but between the very detailed Sea of Fallen Stars supplement and the question of their place in dwarven lore we could end up with more problems than it is worth.
They could of course be creatures that once upon a time wandered into the elemental plane of water and there evolved into water living beings that went to Abeir-Toril through a gate. There, in a small bay they have lived for hundreds of years, small in numbers ( and size for that matter) and blocked of from the rest of the sea by Morcoths that are unable to pass the reefs, but still keep the dwarves in the bay. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 18:43:24
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| They could be from a sea or ocean far away on the planet and have teleported only recently to the sea of fallen stars |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 22:14:45
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| You all have plausible ideas, all good ideas. Though I agree prehaps the sea of Fallen Stars is probably not the best place, but "The Ice Sea east of Sossal" idea by Jorkins, now that look's like a goer as we know virtually nothing about Sossal. So Sea Dwarves as a sub-race (though a minor little known one) is a YES. Any more ideas please add! |
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TheRedBard
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 22:55:37
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| They could be another branch of mindflayer experiments on the Duergar. |
"You're only given a little spark of madness. And if you lose that, you're nothing!"
-Robin Williams, 1978 HBO Special |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 07:37:23
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Putting them in the Ice sea you can also make them into creatures originating at the eastern shores near Kara-Tur and therefore unknown to even the dwarves of Faerun. They could also be an of-shot of the arctic dwarf living in the underside of floating icebergs and using their overdimensioned feet (do the arctic dwarves still have these in 3ed.?) to paddle with.
A favorite hunting method of the dwarves is to weaken the ice from the underside and letting creatures fall through.
There could be mystical floating carvings and sculptures found in the icebergs that have given basis for many legends, but that in reality was the result of the sea dwarves getting their inborn artistic impulses satisfied. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 17:07:02
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Sea dwarves?
Interesting idea, but, I have never read anything about them. Definately an idea for individual campaigns. Would I use them, possibly. What with the Sea of Fallen Stars supplement, and the Races of Faerun detailing both the area (former) and the races (later), I do not consider them canon, as of now. Like some have said, however, it would be easy to add or retrofit them if wanted if they are a very small group.
Sea dwarves, yup, there's one(points to dwarf). |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 21:50:04
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| I believe it was Demihuman Deities that squashed the rumors of aquatic dwarves.... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 01:09:06
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I believe it was Demihuman Deities that squashed the rumors of aquatic dwarves....
Indeed it was.
In the Dwarven Pantheon write-up --
quote:
Legends of a race of aquatic dwarves in the Sea of Fallen Stars have been conclusively discredited by every scholar who has looked into
the question.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 03:24:20
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Hello-
Perhaps we can still combine all the information - and use it all as official, if somewhat mis-interpreted.
Consider that there is no race of aquatic dwarves in the SoFS as per Demihuman Deities.
Now - I am not completely familiar with teh source saying that there IS - but - how about a 'craft' clan of Standard dwarves - who have plumbed the depts of the ocen for ores there -a nd are employing magic etc to survive and exist there. they may appear as a race of aquatic dwarves - but would not be an actual race. The reference in the Ravens Bluff supplement could have been an early report of poeple seeing them and making the new race conclusion.
Just a thought. :)
Dhomal |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 03:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-
Perhaps we can still combine all the information - and use it all as official, if somewhat mis-interpreted.
Consider that there is no race of aquatic dwarves in the SoFS as per Demihuman Deities.
Now - I am not completely familiar with teh source saying that there IS - but - how about a 'craft' clan of Standard dwarves - who have plumbed the depts of the ocen for ores there -a nd are employing magic etc to survive and exist there. they may appear as a race of aquatic dwarves - but would not be an actual race. The reference in the Ravens Bluff supplement could have been an early report of poeple seeing them and making the new race conclusion.
Just a thought. :)
Dhomal
I like that. I love it when something can be both true and untrue at the same time. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 09:50:52
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Enother option would indeed be a curse. I know PC games are not canon but none the less can well be inspiration. As I was reading this thread I came to think of NWN and the Avariel tribe that was cursed to live in the Underdark.
Think of this "dwarven clan" in the Sea of Fallen Stars similarly cursed to live in the environs most hated by their kin - the water!
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 10:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I believe it was Demihuman Deities that squashed the rumors of aquatic dwarves....
Indeed it was.
In the Dwarven Pantheon write-up --
quote:
Legends of a race of aquatic dwarves in the Sea of Fallen Stars have been conclusively discredited by every scholar who has looked into
the question.
Though not official cannon I still think they deserve a mention in my book, but as to make them cannon? I think as I have said earlier prehaps there is room, maybe an ancient lost sub-race (keeps everyone happy it includes the myth and still keeps to current cannon by not being a current option)!?
Pray tell, What think ye? |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 20:48:15
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Underwater dwarfs bobbing around......I really canīt say why but the idea does not sound appealing to me. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2006 : 20:08:02
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Underwater dwarfs bobbing around......I really canīt say why but the idea does not sound appealing to me.
Just picture a big fat dwarf in a big fat bubble with a big fat mug o' ale in his hand. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 14:44:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Underwater dwarfs bobbing around......I really canīt say why but the idea does not sound appealing to me.
Just picture a big fat dwarf in a big fat bubble with a big fat mug o' ale in his hand.
Eaaaarrghh!! Me eyes, me eyes! |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Sea Dwarves
