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Enillias
Acolyte
1 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 12:40:02
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I am quite curious to learn more about slaadi. I find them quite interesting creatures, but the problem is that I barely know anything about them.
How have they been created, and from where do they originate before they started living on the Plane of Limbo? What kinds of personalities do they have? Why does a grey slaad become Chaotic Evil when it transforms to a death slaad, and back to Chaotic Neutral when a death slaad becomes a white slaad? And...anthing else there is to know about them.
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 15:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Enillias
I am quite curious to learn more about slaadi. I find them quite interesting creatures, but the problem is that I barely know anything about them.
How have they been created, and from where do they originate before they started living on the Plane of Limbo? What kinds of personalities do they have? Why does a grey slaad become Chaotic Evil when it transforms to a death slaad, and back to Chaotic Neutral when a death slaad becomes a white slaad? And...anthing else there is to know about them.
Argh!  The new 3E slaadi canon has become one of my biggest pet peeves in D&D...so here is my rant
OK, a quick point to make...in 2E Planescape (using the original Great Wheel planology) the idea was fully flushed out that every "pure" alignment plane had its own native "living alignment" planar race (an idea that began with the fiends back in 1E).
When I mean "pure" I mean there is one Outer Plane for each of the 9 alignments (LG,NG,CG,LN,N,CN,LE,NE,CE for the non-RPG players)in the Great Wheel and an outer plane between each "pure" alignment...for example Mount Celestia/the Seven Heavens is the "pure" lawful good (LG) plane...to each side of the plane in the Great Wheel is Arcadia (which is lawful neutral with good tendencies LN[G] or lawful good with neutral tendencies [N]LG)and Bytopia/the Twin Paradises (which is lawful good with neutral tendencies [N]LG or neutral good with lawful tendencies [L]NG)...thus Mount Celestia is the "pure" alignment plane and the adjoining planes are "tainted" with another alignment
And in Planescape the "alignment" races were the archons (LG) the guardinals (NG) the eladrin (CG) the slaadi (CN) the tanar'ri/demons (CE) the yugoloths/daemons (NE) the baatezu/devils (LE) the modrons (LN) and the rilmani (N)
Now sometime in the development Forgotten Realms someone decided that the slaadi were not originally a native planar race but like the githyanki, immigrants to Limbo...and that they could be (meaning probably are) that amphibian Creator Race from the Days of Thunder...which ignores the fact that the Days of Thunder were around 50,000 years ago while the Outer Planes, Limbo and the Slaadi are almost infinitely older than that...50,000 years is less than a blink of the eye in the Outer Planes...
This has never made sense to me until I understood that the new "Great Tree" Forgotten Realms cosmology is totally separate from the cosmology of the core D&D campaign...thus the Realms is no longer connected to the Planescape campaign, except through Sigil 
So I guess now the slaadi are either a relatively new race or the Outer Planes of the Realms is only as old as the actual Realms themselves...
As for how they were created, personalities, etc. the best source of info on the Slaadi is still the Planescape resources, the Planes of Chaos box set would probably be the best...I also remember an old Dragon Magazine article on the Slaadi lords too...the new slaadi, like the epic ones and the mud slaadi, were invented in 3E and dont appear in Planescape
And as for why the death slaad is evil I have no clue...in fact I have always found that the slaadi are more CN[E] than pure CN...it has been like that since 1E...a CE slaadi should have been treated like a NE baatezu/devil or a NG archon...and fallen planar...
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 15:49:22
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Don't forget, the only Slaad Lord we have officially seen in 3rd/3.5 has been Bazim-Gorag, and he is CE. I'm just glad we actually got a new Slaad lord, and would love to see the old ones statted up again officially.
I know about the "creator race turned Slaad" theory, but I take that as one of those "sages making wild guesses" statements. On the other hand, its possible that the amphibian creator race may have turned themselves into Slaadi to escape their troubles AFTER having run into some that already existed.
Or the sages could have been completely off and the amphibian creator race was the forebear of the neraphim race that shows up in the Planar Handbook. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 15:51:19
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| Oh, and if you want to read about Slaad in the Forgotten Realms in novel format, definately pick up the Erevis Cale books. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 16:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh, and if you want to read about Slaad in the Forgotten Realms in novel format, definately pick up the Erevis Cale books.
yeah, that series I need to catch up on  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 18:40:07
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Or the sages could have been completely off and the amphibian creator race was the forebear of the neraphim race that shows up in the Planar Handbook.
That is an idea I have been mulling over too  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 19:31:05
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Its seems like a natural fit, since the Planar Handbook mentions that Neraphim are often mistaken for Slaad. Sages could have gotten their wires crossed when doing their research, and actually found some link between some creatures in the planes, and when they cross reference toad like chaos races, they come up with Slaad, not Neraphim.
Good to see my brain isn't alone alone on these paths . . . |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 19:38:50
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Yeah, it sucks when you are the only one that sees a certain path of reasoning...
To me the implications of the Neraphim being descendents of the Bactari (sp?) is now you have a "template creature" of the amphibious Creator Race...the Neraphim's weapons, culture, etc.
Plus you can use them almost directly into a Realms campaign...imagine a band of mid to high level neraphim arriving in the March of Chembler (sp? sheesh...my spelling of Realms names sucks today )..what they would/could do with the shiv and the bullywugs...and the yaun-ti so close by too... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 23:18:19
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| Eh.. my problem is more to do with the nonexistance of planes like Limbo in the Tree cosmology. You've got good in the Celestial Planes and Evil in the Fiendish Planes, but no pure law or chaos. Would you really have to go through Sigil to get to Limbo? Or has there been a mistake and Limbo is actually a Plane in the Realmspace Crystal Sphere? Or am I missing something? |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 23:26:56
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| According to Ed, since he or Eric mentioned Limbo in Serpent Kingdoms, the Limbo that is mentioned in that sourcebook is the Limbo of the Wheel/Ring. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 15 Apr 2007 23:31:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 01:05:43
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Indeed -- see his 27th January reply in the 2005 file.
Limbo was also referenced in the second of Paul's 'Erevis Cale' books, on pg. 7.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Apr 2007 01:06:54 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 10:42:33
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The origin of the Slaad has not changed from 2e to 3e. Per Ed Greenwood the Slaad still come from Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmos and then at some point in the past they colonized the Great Tree cosmology through rifts, portals or gates, settling in the plane of the Supreme Throne.
There was one line in Serpent Kindgoms speculating as to what happened to the Batrachi creator race. The line says that some scholars believe that the Batrachi went to Limbo to become the slaadi.
The fact that the line is prefaced with the phrase "scholars believe" indicates that you should not accept the belief at face value. It did not alter canon about the origin of the slaadi. It was meant as simply an obvious red herring about what happened to the Batrachi.
As for what happened to the Batrachi, they do still have descendents in Faerūn. Survivors have descended into barbarism but are still around as the bullywugs, sivs and grippli.
Some of them may indeed have fled to the planes. Some of them may even have found a way to transform themselves into slaadi. No doubt that some of them may have gotten themselves implanted with slaadi eggs, which, of course, is the easiest way of all to get transformed into slaadi, and if they did settle in Limbo was no doubt the fate of many of them.
Some fans have suggested that Batrachi could be the root stock of the Neraphim, from the Planar Handbook. I am fond of that idea. They might be some sort of true-breeding planetouched, the result of millenia of breeding with slaad. Not sure if the slaadi can breed sexually, but in the chaotic plane of Limbo I am sure they could swing it somehow. Even if it did not involve actually breeding with the slaadi, environmental pressures of living in Limbo might have reshaped the Batrachi to resemble the slaadi simply because it is a form better suited to surviving in the chaos of the plane. Or the Batrachi/Neraphim might have come to look like the slaadi through emulation (either intentionally or subconsciously) by slowly reshaping their appearance over generations by the manipulation of chaos and the highly morphic nature of the plane. |
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Slaadi
