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Sammael
Acolyte
27 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 12:40:08
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Where exactly in modern Faerun would ruins of the Unity and Karsus enclaves be? Would it be plausible to place them one over another, or in very close proximity, perhaps connected via the Underdark? Would there be a connection to Oreme?
Finally, how plausible does the following scenario sound in the context of FR canon? Any obvious plot holes?
(a) An Avatar of Lathander was sent to Toril to initiate the Rebirth (my version of Dawn Cataclysm II or Deliverance).
(b) He was to accomplish this by first finding the following artifacts: Scepter of the Sorcerer-Kings, Golden Disk of Amaunator, Tear of Selune, and an intact mythallar.
(c) First, he cuts Toril off from the Astral and Ethereal planes and severs deific connections by using the (finished) Scepter and a variant of the spell that Imaskari used to block Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons.
(d) Next, he repairs the Golden Disk and uses the mythallar to return one of the Netherese cities (e.g. Karsus) to the sky. Tear of Selune provides magical power for this.
(e) He uses the Golden Disk in a manner similar to the Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra (DMG2) to destroy the strongholds of evil on Faerun.
(f) Finally, he removes the barrier. Good and neutral deities are restored to power, but the evil deities are greatly weakened from the loss of worshipers. An alliance is formed to wipe the evil deities from the Multiverse.
Assume that Ao will not interfere, and that Shar is well aware of Lathander's plans but chooses not to share them with any other evil deities, and is able to retain her power (since she is more directly connected to Toril through the Plane of Shadow than other evil deities).
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Edited by - Sammael on 10 Sep 2006 12:41:28
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 14:24:40
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mmm.... I cant conceive any situation in which Ao would allow this. It absolutely goes against everything he stands for. If you are getting rid of him in your campaign thats fine its jsut absurdly not canon.
If you are looking for an intact mythal there was one described in one of the box sets in 2ed. another sage will be able to remember exactly what one I'm tlaking about.
It might be interesting to have a reverse effect for Lathander. Instead of wiping out evil... Shar subsumes the portfolios and power of the weaker evil gods and becomes nightmarishly powerful. She would then be powerful enough to defeat Mystra or Sune snatching away the Weave.... and since Ao isnt interefering in your version there would be little to stop her from denying the weave to all the other deities clerics- in turn starving the other gods of their worshippers (as a silence of the spider queen-type scenario plays out)
One thing I would notice that is frustrating for players is when the DM uses npcs to do all the cool things adventurers should be doing. I think having an avatar of Lathandar do thsoe things is a mistake. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Sammael
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 15:04:25
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Just to clarify a few things:
The Avatar of Lathander is an antagonist in this case. The PCs are unaware of this at this moment, and have reasons to believe that all the problems on Toril have been caused by Shar (the campaign is somewhere between (c) and (d) at this moment).
Once the PCs reach the enclave and meet Lathander, they'll be free to decide whether they want to help him or to avert his plans. In either case, they'll have to fight either the Avatar of Lathander, or the Avatar of Helm (who will arrive at the scene at roughly the same time to stop Lathander from repeating his Dawn Cataclysm disaster). This should be a wonderful moral dilemma for the PCs, since there is one worshiper of Lathander and one worshiper of Helm in the party.
Whatever the result, Lathander will end up being reborn as Amaunator because of several factors. I've hinted at this via a prophecy, but the PCs (and the players) haven't caught up with it.
You are absolutely correct about Shar's goals. Depending on the PCs actions, she may or may not succeed. Ironically, if they help Lathander, they will also help Shar.
Ao is letting this happen for a very good reason that has to do with a major future event which I won't dwell on. When the dust settles, Ao will step forward and make some "cuts" in the pantheons (as well as promote some pantheon members to greater status).
EDIT: And don't worry about the PCs. They've been doing a lot of cool things over the past four and a half years (that's how long the campaign's been running), including several world-changing events. The above is the metaplot which has been going on behind the scenes for quite a while and has to do with the changes to the Realms I want to make. The PCs' actions will certainly matter. |
Edited by - Sammael on 10 Sep 2006 15:11:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 17:16:45
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Problems:
The Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings has been destroyed.
Ao would not sit by and watch his precious Balance be destroyed.
Shar wants the destruction of everything. She'd likely try to use this to her advantage, to increase her own power and get her that much closer to returning all of creation to the nothingness that once existed.
What purpose does restoring a flying city serve? Besides, most of them are too badly destroyed to restore. Other than the three survivor states, maybe the one by Aglarond, the possible one in Firedrake Bay, or Opus, the remaining ones are simply big piles of rubble. It'd be easier to make a new one than it would be to restore one of the destroyed ones.
Destroying evil strongholds will not have that great of an effect. Sure, evil is concentrated there, but those strongholds constitute a small percentage of overall evil folk.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Sep 2006 17:17:57 |
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Sammael
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 17:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Problems:
The Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings has been destroyed.
I wasn't aware of this. Can you please give me some references (sourcebooks only, I do not own the novels) to go look it up? It probably doesn't change much, but I'd like to research it nevertheless.
quote:
Ao would not sit by and watch his precious Balance be destroyed.
Shar wants the destruction of everything. She'd likely try to use this to her advantage, to increase her own power and get her that much closer to returning all of creation to the nothingness that once existed.
The balance won't be destroyed. Rather, the cosmology will be... re-balanced, with Shar more tightly bound than before (even if she doesn't realise it, and even if her plan goes through).
quote:
What purpose does restoring a flying city serve?
To have it fly around the Realms with a huge flaming sun disk above it that scorches all evil in its path. Not the brightest of plans, but Lathander's plans generally aren't particularly bright.
quote:
It'd be easier to make a new one than it would be to restore one of the destroyed ones.
That's a very good point. A mythallar would still be (sort of) required, or at least make the job easier. Which mountain top near the eastern border of Anauroch do you suggest I should chop off?
quote:
Destroying evil strongholds will not have that great of an effect. Sure, evil is concentrated there, but those strongholds constitute a small percentage of overall evil folk.
I'm sure that Bane (at least) will be greatly effected if all Zhentarim strongholds are wiped out. Cyric is already gone (IMC), but I won't discuss it as it isn't canonical. Likewise for some other evil deities. Again, the plan is supposed to be "idealistic," like other Lathander's plans of yore.
Thanks for the constructive criticism! |
Edited by - Sammael on 10 Sep 2006 17:27:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 18:14:40
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Cloak & Dagger for the destruction of the Scepter.
The Balance that Ao created would be destroyed. "Rebalancing" is changing the Balance into something other than what Ao intended, therefore, he'd not allow it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Sammael
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 23:30:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Cloak & Dagger for the destruction of the Scepter.
Thanks, I'll look into it. I haven't read that book in a while.
quote:
The Balance that Ao created would be destroyed. "Rebalancing" is changing the Balance into something other than what Ao intended, therefore, he'd not allow it.
Yes, but he is behind all these changes, because he is extremely displeased with the performance of certain deities. I imagine that he can rebalance his own creation as he sees fit, but chooses not to take a direct hand in the events unless absolutely necessary.
At any rate, I didn't want to argue the really high-level metaphysics of the setting as much as check for any glaring and obvious errors in my premises (such as the mentioned destroyed scepter). Ao allowed the Dawn Cataclysm to occur. I do not see why he would try to directly stop another Lathander's attempt, particularly if he knows the outcome and the outcome suits him. |
Edited by - Sammael on 10 Sep 2006 23:30:55 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 00:58:33
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Lathander may not be the brightest of the deities, but still his intelligence is vastly superior to even the brightest of mortals (excepting perhaps several epic-level wizards). He is a god, after all.
I agree with Wooly that Ao would hardly allow any deity to shatter the Balance in such a blatant way. No matter what his intentions or the outcome may be in the long run.
Personally I think that Lathander would not wish to use any artifacts with ties to Amaunator (at least in any "public" way).
If you use the events described in Power of Faerūn in your campaign, you may be aware that Lathander's faith is in crisis with the Risen Sun heresy. Why would he want to restore a city of Netheril, and have it use the Golden Disk, when such actions would only bolster the rumours that Amaunator has returned and only drive his faith into a deeper crisis? Surely this would only benefit the heretics within his church, and perhaps even resurrect Amaunator for once and all?
If you wish to use the city and the Disk in your campaign, I suggest that you use the Risen Sun heresy in Lathander's place. Their High Priest is an epic-level (25 character levels, I believe) character, fully capable of epic-level miracles and spells. Furthermore, he is a devout worshipper of Amaunator, and certainly would perhaps even search for ways to become Amaunator's first avatar in over a millennia?
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 01:11:37
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If I were to run something somewhat similar, I might throw in this tid bit, which is something I have been pondering lately.
Lathander sometimes comes across as kind of . . . er . . . flighty but generally good.
But yet, during the Dawn Cataclysm, and during the events of Tymora's Luck, and with the ongoing idea of Lathander still wanting to create another Dawn Cataclysm, Lathander seems a lot more driven and ambitious.
I have wondered if Lathander isn't Aumanator reborn, so much as the recepticle of some portion of Amaunator that has managed to reassert itself from time to time. All of the sudden, when it builds up enough of its former power, it starts to influence Lathander.
The whole point of the Dawn Cataclysm is to boost Lathander's power so much that when Amaunator splits off from him again into a separate being, he can "leave" with the power of a greater god, and perhaps even convince Lathander to let him take over as the "head" of the new pantheon.
It could be that overall, Amaunator, or rather a fragment of him, is really trying to build up enough power from Lathander to be reborn himself, and this is why Lathander himself doesn't really seem to get too upset with the Risen Sun heresy or with all of those followers saying he is Amaunator reborn. Every time he gets upset, a little voice in his head says they are harmless, or they work for the greater good (that little voice being a fragment of Amaunator).
In the end, this is why sometimes an otherwise brilliant greater god has done things that aren't quite so bright, things that his allies like Selune can see and understand, even when he doesn't. He has another personality drawing on his resources.
This also helps to explain how Lathander's worship predates the "death" of Amaunator, since it wouldn't make much sense for him to be reborn before he died (I know, time doesn't flow the same for gods, but I like my chronology linear, sue me).
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Ruins of Unity and Karsus enclaves - where?
