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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 22:34:13
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You know, I've been thinking about the idea that the Seldarine didn't get involved while Lolth was silent, and that they haven't acted against her or the drow, and even about how things came about in this novel, and I've come up with some theories. Outlandish and far fetched theories to be sure, but they are mine, so I love them like my own children . . . sort of. Anyway, on with the
speculation . . .
Corellon's Big Plan Part One: The Descent
The first part of this goes back to the descent. It has been alluded to that the High Magic ritual that caused the Ilythiiri to become the drow was flawed, and somehow changed all of the Ilythiiri into drow, not just the evil ones. Some comments in Blackstaff seemed to back up this assertion. While this was a mistake of the High Mages of the time, Corellon, theoretically, could have reveresed this effect, or could have intervened and warned the High Mages of the problem with the spell. But it proceeded, the drow were banished from the
surface, couldn't stand light, and couldn't work their magic on the surface (according to the Dark Elf
trilogy and the Starlight and Shadows books).
What if Corellon wanted there to be some "less than evil" drow among the evil ones, as a moderating influence? (For those among you that still subscribe to single Corellon/multiple aspects, this might be why the same thing apparently happened in different worlds to various "dark elf" races, not just the
Ilythiiri).
Corellon's Big Plan Part Two: Who's In Charge
It may be that Corellon intentionally allowed Lolth to become more and more
powerful because her worship is not actually the most effective faith for the
dark elves to have. If Ghaunadaur or Vhearaun were actually the most revered
drow deity, the drow may have become much more of a threat to the surface elves,
and so, Corellon not only doesn't act against Lolth, but subtly encourages her
to continue on her path.
One of the reasons that Shevarash might not be well liked among the Seldarine
may be that he draws too much attention to the drow, and Corellon would rather let them fight
amonst themselves than to have surface elves drawing their ire. In a way, this
is accepting the los of those elves that are killed in ritualistic surface
raids, but Corellon may deem this for the greater good.
Support of leaving Lolth in charge might be found in the Wendonai story.
Wendonai left the service of Lolth when he began to encourage the drow to take a
more active stance toward assaulting the surface.
Corellon's Big Plan Part Three: The Gamble
Eventually, once Elistraee's faith is firmly entreanched and more dark elves
flee to the surface, Corellon has a plan to start "calling the faithful home."
This plan has to do with the Windwalker, Liriel, and Elistraee, and allowing the
dark elves to use their magic on the surface again. This is a gamble because if
the drow now turn their attention to the surface, then it causes more problems
than it would have before.
Corellon's Big Plan Part Four: The Real Enemey
After the Windwalker incident, Vhaeraun's followers become much more active on
the surface, and start to make inroads toward taking over the ancient Elven
Court and Myth Drannor. Once Lolth fell into her silence, not only did Corellon
not act against her, but he may have even acted to protect her from other
deities (like Shevarath). This would have been the worst possible time for the
Vhearunites to come to prominence.
As a slight sub theory, it may have been that Halistra wasn't really intended to
kill Lolth. While it may be possible that Elistraee and Corellon were at cross
purposes here, it may also have been that Elistraee knew that Halistra had never
really banished the evil in her heart, but she was just right for implating a
bit of Eilistraee's faith within. Halistra never really had a chance to truly
convert to Eilistraee, nor to kill Lolth, but she did hold within her the
conflict from hearing Eilistraee's teachings, and perhaps, had she become the
Yor'thae, she may have insured that Lolth was even more conflicted and less effective.
The main point here is that Lolth is the best goddess to head the Dark Seldarine
for Corellon's purposes, and the Vhearaunites represent a real threat.
Corellon's Big Plan Part Five: Evermeet and the Gatekeeper's Crystal
Why didn't Corellon warn the faithful of Evermeet of the incursion of fey'ri
that stole the portion of the Gatekeeper's Crystal held on Evermeet? Because it
was part of his plan.
The Vhearaunites pose a threat to Myth Drannor and the Elven Court. The fey'ri
are dangerous foes that might start to use corrupt High Magic and invoke the aid
of Malkzid. Why not allow the fey'ri to come into conflict with the
Vhearaunites (while they apparently were having some issues with the Lady
Penitent as well)?
Corellon nudges Seiveril to start his crusade, as well as to bring back Fflar,
who has a drive to do SOMETHING from when he was in Arvandor. Eventually they
manage to defeat the fey'ri and retake Myth Drannor BEFORE not only the Daemonfey can control it, but also the Vhearaunites. The Vhaeraunites now
don't have a chance to mess with any ancient High Magic or to control the Mythal
of Myth Drannor.
Corellon's Long Term Plan: The Future?
It could be that not only is Corellon making sure that the drow that are evil
follow Lolth as much as possible, that the Vhearaunites are contained, and that
drow magic now works on the surface, he may be preparing his surface elves for
reunification with those good drow that come to his worship and the worship of
Eilistraee.
I wouldn't imagine this last step is anywhere near fruition, but it might be
that the elves are being nudged in this direction by Corellon, and finally all
of the elven sub races will live together, in harmony, on the surface, the way
they were intended to before the Crown Wars.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 22:54:29
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| That's an interesting bit of speculation... It does answer some questions. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 23:20:25
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I'll poke some of my own holes in the above theories. I haven't been able to fit Lolth participating in the raid on Evermeet into the above. Usually she has been pretty careful to teach her children to hate the surface elves, all the while basically keeping them in the Underdark and only every once in a while attacking the surface elves.
I can work it into Corellon reasoning, because it reminded the elves, even on Evermeet, that they weren't safe from their foes, and it played into Seiveril's eventual plans, but Lolth was a bit more agressive there than she usually is.
BTW, I'm not critisising that she participated in it, or that it is out of character, just that it doesn't fit MY theory as well as I'd like.
I'll cogitate on it a bit more. Its all speculation at any rate. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2006 : 18:40:32
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My main question is: why did Corellon want the High Magi to affect the Drow with the Descent?
You said it was to somewhat implant a grain of goodness in them (thus banishing them ALL), but if ONLY the Ilythiiri had been Banished, the Drow as a whole would have never been nearly as large of a threat in the first place, and the Good Dark Elves on the surface would have been able to continue to gain in strength and numbers. Eilistraee probably would have, in time, been named their patron goddess, and grown in power to rival Lolth or Vhaeraun anyway. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 14:30:33
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I think the problem is that you're assuming that Corellon is omniscient (all knowing) and would realize in advance that the High Magic ritual could effect all of the Ilythiiri.
It been well demonstrated in almost every FR book written about the Gods that they are clearly NOT all knowing, and in fact, most of them have huge blind spots when it comes to predicting the consequences of their own actions.
My personal opinion is that both Corellon and the Elven High Mages have a strong tendency to "act know, think later" and usualy fly by the seat of their pants. Witness their tendency to cause utter destruction and mayhem with their High Magic in both the creation of Evermeet, their "trapping" of Moander - whihc actually preserved the evil God's power so it could menace the Cormanthor long after he had otherwise faded from power at both Darkwatch and with Moander's Road.
Likewise, it's easy to assume that the high magic that effected all Ilythiiri was just another case of neither the High mages or Corellon knowing exactly what they were doing in the heat of the moment. They were angry with the evil Ilythiiri and (unfortunatly) cast a spell with much braoder intent than they really wanted.
However, their pride and hubris prevents both Corellon and his High Mages from ever admiting the initial mistake, and thus could also explain, Corellon's actions to preserve Lolth and the drow during the resent silence of the goddess.
Those are my thoughyts on the matter, and I'd appreciate your reactions.
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"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
Edited by - Halidan on 11 Sep 2006 14:34:16 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 15:53:32
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KEJR, I really like your idea about Corellon wanting to keep Lolth in power because it protects the surface elves, best damn reason I heard so far. It does explain the lack of Seldarine involvement during the silence of Lolth.
As for Halidan, no idea what to say, KEJR's explanation helps me quite a bit, will I adapt it in my campaign, no idea either. As for Corellon not admitting his mistake...um, he did toss out Lolth when she betrayed him ,and he admitted that he was blinded so to speak.
When the sundering happened there weren't that many other intelligent beings present, and I doubt the elves would've apologized to the Yuan-Ti.
The elves knew the price, and accepted it.
Again back to the topic, GREAT idea KEJR, it explains sooo much!!!! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 16:09:06
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Mace: Thanks for the comment I apreciate it.
Dan: I get what you are saying, but the evil dark elves were powerful and had access to High Magic at the time, and by the end of the Crown Wars were definately in the majority, and the drow of Miyeritar, for example, were not . . . well . . . in play, so to speak, so as not to ruin a certain book.
Also, if only the evil ones and the ones on the fence were turned to drow, then the ones on the fence, so to speak, are most likely to just all become fully evil. Now, the already evil ones might be so bitter and fanatic as to buy into Lolth's plans and to fight amonst themselves, etc. But the ones on the fence that "converted" to being fully evil are more likely to less fanatic, and more "survivor" types, more willing to worship Ghaunadaur and Vhearaun and to pose a bigger threat, in the future, to the surface elves.
Plus, if you think of it this way, Corellon could have just tried to make all of the surface elves safe, or he could take a gamble and try to win back some of his lost sheep. I know its not a Realms phrase, but "good redeems its own."
Halidan: I definately don't think that the gods in FR are omnicient (if the Dawn Cataclysm or stealing the Tablets of Fate have taught us anything), but I do think that Corellon, as a god of magic, has a good chance of figuring out that something might not be working right, especially in a High Magic ritual, which takes longer to cast than a spell does, and gives a bit more time to see the ebbs and flows of mistakes.
On the other hand, I would consider his decision to take a chance and base a plan around this mistake as a gamble, which would definately fit his personality.
Finally, I am just offering this as a possiblity, definately not as a hard and fast thing that must be, or something that I think has been implied. Its just the way I put the puzzle pieces together, and anyone else might assemble them differently (or think the picture I put together with them is out of whack). |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 16:29:14
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True enough, if Vhaeraunites would control the drow ways you could be damn sure that many surface realms would already be smoking ruins. Lolth is chaos, and as such "controllable", or at least predictable. She thrives in the backstabbing, Vhaeraun doesn't, that makes him way more dangerous.
The theory would fit the holes left by WOTSQ. Whether these holes were intentional (sad to say, but I doubt it) or unintentional (far more likely), your idea manages to fill them, very much so! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
Edited by - Mace Hammerhand on 11 Sep 2006 21:53:05 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 16:38:32
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(Sorry for the big post)
Overall I really like your speculations about the drow but there are a few things I would like to counter-point:
Corellon's Big Plan Part One: The Descent
I don’t think that magic of the descent was flawed...I think it was beyond even the power of Corellon to weed out all the “good” dark elves in the descent...I think it was similar to the “good of the many must overshadow the needs of the few”...the many being the rest of the elven nation and the whole realms vs. the few good dark elves remaining in Faerun at the Descent...What about the part in Evermeet where Eilistrae says she will stay out of the Seladrine as she knew she would be needed by the (future) kind-hearted drow? That tells me that she (and Corellon) knew what Arushene/Lolth’s (sp??) betrayal and banishment as tanar’ri would mean to the elves in the Realms...and both gods knew that good dark elves would be sacrificed in the punishment of the Ilythiiri and the salvation of the elven race.
I have a casual thought...if it was actually a High Magic ritual that initiated the Descent and not the simple will of the Seladrine (as I like to think it was) then it could be a global mythal (like the draco-rage mythal) that keeps the drow (as a whole race ) in the Underdark (like an antipathy spell) other than an “instant” transmution High Magic ritual that transmuted the Ilythiiri into the drow.
And I thought the drow could still work their magic on the surface...it was their dependence on Faerizz (sp?) (the magical Underdark radiation) to create cheap and easy-to-make magical items (which dissolve in sunlight) that kept most of their magical items in the Underdark...I always thought the Descent severed the Drow as a race from the Weave to the point where they couldn’t work true elven High Magic (thus the radiation dependence)
Corellon's Big Plan Part Two: Who's In Charge
I think Corellon, in declaring Lolth tanar’ri, lost all influence over her...thus Lolth’s ascent in power was all her doing (showing how intelligent and tenacious she really is, compared to the more lax Corellon, which is similar to the drow vs. surface elf lifestyle).
And as Ghaunadaur blasted most of it’s followers into non-intelligence, most of Vhearaun’s power is based on the “the other choice” drow power (vs choosing Lolth to worship) and it was due to Lolth embracing the Ilythiiri and fueling the Crown Wars (I don’t think it is either Ghaunadaur’s or Vhaeraun’s style to cause such a “world war” among the elves...unlike Lolth’s “revenge on Corellon’s children motive) that the Ilythiiri actually became the drow...I don’t think Ghaunadaur or Vhearaun would have actually been that much of a threat that Corellon would have to secretly support Lolth to create a “break fire” in the evil elven god’s pantheon
I can believe Corellon actually protected Lolth right after her banishment into the Abyss as she was just a powerful tanar’ri demon at that point (not even an abyssal lord yet) while Vhaeraun was still a true god and probably have wanted to eliminate her once-and-for-all (as would most of the other anti-Seladrine powers)
Corellon's Big Plan Part Three: The Gamble
Like I said...I don’t think the arcane spells cast by a drow are any different than any other race’s arcane spells...it is the Faerizz (sp?) radiation the drow use to make their magical items, tools and armaments, the same radiation that gives them their innate spell-like abilities that is lost on the surface (due to the sunlight and being removed from the Faerizz). Consider that drow wizard city under the Sunset Vale (can’t remember the name)...they are in a Faerizz “dead zone” (which is why the wizards took over...they were too valuable for the priestesses of Lolth to subjugate) but still have all their magic...
Remember Liriel places a Faerizz-heavy sliver of stone in the winwalker to preserve her “magic” (arcane spellcasting ability or her innate spell-like abilities?)
Another thought...the theory of an “anti-drow” global mythal is supported if just reaching the surface begins to strip the drow of their magic (arcane) abilities (this indicates a persistent magical effect/field of magic)
Corellon's Big Plan Part Four: The Real Enemey
quote:
“The main point here is that Lolth is the best goddess to head the Dark Seldarine for Corellon's purposes, and the Vhearaunites represent a real threat.”
I do agree that it is to the Seledrine’s favor to keep Lolth alive...like the Heavens keeping the Bloodwar going...evil vs evil weakens them all and aids/supports good.
But I still think you are over-estimating Vhaeraun strength and potency...Kiranslee (sp?) is just as viable as Vhaeraun to make great in-roads with the drow...
Corellon's Big Plan Part Five: Evermeet and the Gatekeeper's Crystal
I totally agree that there is some sort of “great plan” going on here...there is that reference to the “impacts of the Sundering is still unfolding”, which is a reference to Evermeet.
And I also agree Corellon had something to do with the Crusade and the reclaimation of Myth Drannor...but I would speculate that it was more like Corellon kicking his children in the metaphorical butt and getting them to Return to Faerun...they complacently “holed” themselves up in Evermeet after the Retreat in naïve safety, which could have ended in the practical extinction of the (civilized) elven race with the invasion.
But I really doubt that the Vhaeraunites were that much of a risk to the Cormanthor region...remember the Vhaeraunite cities in the Mir at war with the Lolthites and the Vhaeraun colonies in the High Forest...it is more Vhaeraun’s style for his people to keep a low profile and infiltrate the surrounding region’s “black” organizations...Plus how could the Vhearaunites have taken the mythal if drow cannot work true elven High Magic and lose their magic on the surface anyways?
Corellon's Long Term Plan: The Future?
I like how you wrapped up your theories but my main contention is that Corellon “signed off” all rights on the drow (remember that Arushene/Lolth was given the destinies of all the dark elves) and that Eilistraee has always worked quietly and in small ways right up to the present for the few “rogue” good drow hearts. It would take a massive conversion of the drow heart not just to turn from Lolth but to turn from evil..something that Corellon isn’t allowed to do and Eilistraee can’t do
quote:
“finally all of the elven sub races will live together, in harmony, on the surface, the way they were intended to before the Crown Wars”
I have always felt (like the mass lemmings population jumping off the cliffs) the Crown Wars were just the continuation of the usual cycle of the elven society...remember the moon and gold elves fled to Aber-Toril from another “great elf war” that about destroyed their last homeland/world...there is something in the elven psyche that is self-destructive and I could never see a harmonious elevn society (or one that lasted more than a few centuries)
I think, like most discussions on THE Balance the Seladrine need an evil counter for their good race...the “this is what will happen if you fall this far” to remind the surface elves what they are capable of...and an outlet of evil for the elven souls...
thank you again for the thoughts! 
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 17:32:23
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| I dont understand why Corellon would go through so much trouble just to reunite the good dark elves with the other good elves, when he could just correct the ritual to affect only evil dark elves. Maybe the high mages werent powerful enough to be alignment specific so this is his way of getting around his followers limitations. If not, then it would make sense for his plan to involve the toal destruction of all of the evil dark elves not just reducing their power... since that can always resurge. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
Edited by - Beirnadri Magranth on 11 Sep 2006 17:33:12 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 17:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
I dont understand why Corellon would go through so much trouble just to reunite the good dark elves with the other good elves, when he could just correct the ritual to affect only evil dark elves. Maybe the high mages werent powerful enough to be alignment specific so this is his way of getting around his followers limitations. If not, then it would make sense for his plan to involve the toal destruction of all of the evil dark elves not just reducing their power... since that can always resurge.
My main thought here is not that he was worried about those who were truly commited to evil, but rather the ones that are on the edge, the ones that do not revel in evil, but "go along to get along." He wanted to, at least in my theory, redeem those that still had a slight chance of redemption, not just the ones that were definately good. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 17:55:33
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Kalin: You may be right that there was no way to actually make the High Magic ritual to work correctly, and as such, it was more a matter of weather the ritual should have been fixed so much as weather it should have been allowed to go on. In the grand scheme of things I do not think this makes a big differnce as far as Corellon and his plan go.
I like your idea that it might have been a mythal, like the Dracorage Mythal (and it may acutally have been the Dracorage Mythal that provided the framework for how the mythal would be structured).
While there were never any game rule ramifications that I knew of, the Dark Elf trilogy mentioned that drow magic does not work right on the surface (as if they are affected by a wild magic area, and the more I think of it, the more I like your mythal idea). Perhaps faezress blocks the effects of the Mythal.
At any rate, just going by the novels, there was a problem with dark elf magic on the surface, and Liriel and her actions reversed this trend. Subsequent products have never followed up on this, but since its in the novels, I wanted to include this.
Given that assumption, that Liriel and the Windwalker have altered the curse on the drow so that they can work magic on the surface well again (and I have been meaning to point out Arcane magic), some of them MAY be able to work with the mythal again. According to Champions of Ruin the Eldreth Veluuthra definately saw them as a serious threat to taking over the whole of Cormanthyr.
A lot of this will deal with weather you want to take the novels at face value as far as drow magic and the surface go.
But I really like the mythal idea. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 18:11:20
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Well there could have been a sorting by alignment, however people can change alignment because of events in their lives.
If some drak elves were not transformed from my understanding they would still have the same appearance as the Drow. The transgomation was light blindness as a most notable change. There is no indication that dark elf features were changed. They still had the same skin color, elven ears, etc.
To allow the good dark elves to remain on the surface they would be still suspected of being Drow and open to attack. The good dark elves in time could be driven to commoting evil acts to protect themselves. Thus the entire dark elf sub-race lost to evil. By sending the good with the bad it protects the good from becoming bad (or dead).
OTOH he wants his wife back and just might believe if she has about as much power as he has they can live together in bliss. After all she wanted more power when she allied with the Dark Seladrine.
Oh one last point the banishment resulted in Vhearaun losing faithful. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 19:02:55
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| Just a friendly reminder . . . lets make sure we are not speculation on an authors motives or thoughts on the setting when making our comments. Such speculations can lead to a lot of off topic issues, as well as causing authors and fans to misconstrue the original intent of the comment. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 19:11:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
If some drak elves were not transformed from my understanding they would still have the same appearance as the Drow. The transgomation was light blindness as a most notable change. There is no indication that dark elf features were changed. They still had the same skin color, elven ears, etc.
To allow the good dark elves to remain on the surface they would be still suspected of being Drow and open to attack. The good dark elves in time could be driven to commoting evil acts to protect themselves. Thus the entire dark elf sub-race lost to evil. By sending the good with the bad it protects the good from becoming bad (or dead).
Well, even if you discout the "wild magic on the surface and no High Magic" aspect of the banishment, I would say the light blindness was the principal issue with the transformation.
However, I had a thought on this as well. Its nothing game rule intensive, but Ed has mentioned that elves don't eat quite as much as their size would indicate because the gain part of their sustanance from sunlight and nature itself, and they don't eat as much meat as humans or dwarves do.
Drow most likely have to eat more to compensate for not gaining sustanance from sunlight and nature, so they are more likely to be more dependant on actual foodstuffs than surface elves. It also seems like they are a bit more fond of meats than surface elves from some of the comments about their diets.
Drow are also shorter than normal elves, since elves in the Realms are the same height as humans. This may not have happened right away though, since the height issue may have come from millinea of living underground.
Also, elves have a general empathy about the weal or woe of elves in general, and can "feel" one another, especially through the Reverie. I would imagine that drow are cut off from this, and from one another. While its nothing game rules really deal with, I imagine that this would seem like a horrible punishment to elves used to feeling this. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 11 Sep 2006 19:13:20 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 19:17:19
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Drow most likely have to eat more to compensate for not gaining sustanance from sunlight and nature, so they are more likely to be more dependant on actual foodstuffs than surface elves. It also seems like they are a bit more fond of meats than surface elves from some of the comments about their diets.
Drow are also shorter than normal elves, since elves in the Realms are the same height as humans. This may not have happened right away though, since the height issue may have come from millinea of living underground.
I like this line of logic but would keep the drow more "mystical" by having them not feed on more foodstuffs than surface elves do but change the need for sunlight/nature for darkness/faezress...
this works with the Mythal theory as Corellon is not a genocidal murderer so he wouldn't kill all the Ilythiiri outright but he "imprisons" the race with an actual physical dependency for the Underdark...
And I think the greater meat eating, like fiends (who don't normally need to eat) is that classic "evil symbolism" think about consuming life to gain power   |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 19:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Also, elves have a general empathy about the weal or woe of elves in general, and can "feel" one another, especially through the Reverie. I would imagine that drow are cut off from this, and from one another. While its nothing game rules really deal with, I imagine that this would seem like a horrible punishment to elves used to feeling this.
I saw this too (the 2E Complete Book of the Elves mentions the drow lose most of the "elvish" characteristics like manifistation and reverie)
I figured this was a consequence to the drow being severed from the Weave (in comparison to surface elves) during the Descent
Oh, BTW...though I dislike the idea and think it is cheesy there is always the "hook" the drow up to the Shadow Weave idea...Shar steals drow worshippers from Lloth and makes the first (Realmsian) Shadow Elves.. |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 20:03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
Corellon's Big Plan Part One: The Descent
I don’t think that magic of the descent was flawed...I think it was beyond even the power of Corellon to weed out all the “good” dark elves in the descent...I think it was similar to the “good of the many must overshadow the needs of the few”...the many being the rest of the elven nation and the whole realms vs. the few good dark elves remaining in Faerun at the Descent
While I don't disagreee with you on this point, I have a hard time figuring out why the Seldarine acted as they did with the descent of the drow and didn't do something simular with the Gold Elves of Avarander (sp?) after the deliberations at the Elven Court.
In both cases, only a relativly small number of elves were actually guilty of crimes against their fellow elves. However with the dark elves, the entire race of the Ilythiir was transformed and condemed to exile in the underdark. No appeal, no second chance - an entire race was condemed for the actions of a few of it's number.
In the second case, only one Gold Elf house - House Vashon (sp?) was selected for surgical removal during the 5th Crown War by the Seldarines mortal armies. It's clear in this second case that the rest of the gold elves were protected and only the guilty put to justice.
Why were the majority of gold elves spared, when large numbers of innocent Iyliir were forceably transformed and exiled? Had the Seldarine learned something or was Corellon making different rules for "his" elves verses the those who were championed by his wife? I don't know and can't figure this one out. Any ideas?
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
...What about the part in Evermeet where Eilistrae says she will stay out of the Seladrine as she knew she would be needed by the (future) kind-hearted drow? That tells me that she (and Corellon) knew what Arushene/Lolth’s (sp??) betrayal and banishment as tanar’ri would mean to the elves in the Realms...and both gods knew that good dark elves would be sacrificed in the punishment of the Ilythiiri and the salvation of the elven race.
You're giving that passage a bit more weight than I did. I personally think that Eilistrae did what any God would do - stay with the people who had honored and worshiped her in the past. She rejects membership in the Seladrine because she had no worshipers left amoung the surface elves after they had been transformed and exiled. Her only hope for the future is to stay with the drow and try and turn their hearts from Lolth in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
Corellon's Big Plan Part Two: Who's In Charge
I think Corellon, in declaring Lolth tanar’ri, lost all influence over her...thus Lolth’s ascent in power was all her doing (showing how intelligent and tenacious she really is, compared to the more lax Corellon, which is similar to the drow vs. surface elf lifestyle).
I agree with you here. After what Corellon did to both Lolth and her people, his influence over her was ended.
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I can believe Corellon actually protected Lolth right after her banishment into the Abyss as she was just a powerful tanar’ri demon at that point (not even an abyssal lord yet) while Vhaeraun was still a true god and probably have wanted to eliminate her once-and-for-all (as would most of the other anti-Seladrine powers)
So, you're saying that even though he's forceable transformed her worshipers, exiled them from the surface, isolated them from every way of life they've ever known, and declared/demoted his wife to become a demon, he still protected her? That's gotta be a sign of a guilty conscence!! I'd never looked at it quite that way. Yet it still fits with my view of Corellon as a hasty and overly emotional leader. I think I have to agree with you.
Thanks for your thoughts. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
Edited by - Halidan on 12 Sep 2006 00:31:20 |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 17:46:32
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Well considering that Lolth brought an invading army of gods right towards the Seldarine's very door step. You could hardly blame Corellon for whats he done. Put yourself in Corellon shoes and think what u could have done. The other probable punishment would probably be death anyway. Anyway, though I strongly suspect corellon did help Lolth after she was banished to the Abyss (How else are u gonna justify she winning over Ghanauder a great power and kiaransaralee and vhearun when she was at the most a tanarri with no connections and allies whatsoever?) Instead of a guilty conscience, I believe it was because Corellon still loved Lolth then and didn't want her to die in the hope that she would change. Wishful thinking of course
He had to banish the drow after what they had done. After all, most of the dark elf were evil in nature even before they become drow. The gold elves could hardly be considered evil though some of them are very prideful and causes big mistakes. Most of it were just error in judgement. Corellon would be a truly big idiot if he banished the entire gold elves simply because one house was bad.
Last point to make, exiling the drow was probably the only thing left he could do, since the elves were definately not going to leave the drow alone and vice versa. he did it at that time probably just to let the anger and hate of each race cool down first. Of course, at that time then he had no idea that Lolth was going to take control of the drow and launch a permanent war against the elves. The banishment was probably meant to last till the races finally can coexist in peace......
Another wishful thinking of corellon of course
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 20:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
He had to banish the drow after what they had done. After all, most of the dark elf were evil in nature even before they become drow.
Pardon my questioning of your assertion Chataro, but I've not read anything in any FR novel or game that indicates that "most" of the Ilythiiri were evil prior to the descent.
Certainly the Ilythiiri were extremely hostile towards other elven nations and responded to the destruction of their forest with sword and flame -- but I've not seen anything that stated they (as a race) were evil prior to the descent.
If I'm missing some information, I'd appreciate a reference or page citation that clears this matter up. Thanks.
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"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 20:17:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
Pardon my questioning of your assertion Chataro, but I've not read anything in any FR novel or game that indicates that "most" of the Ilythiiri were evil prior to the descent.
Certainly the Ilythiiri were extremely hostile towards other elven nations and responded to the destruction of their forest with sword and flame -- but I've not seen anything that stated they (as a race) were evil prior to the descent.
If I'm missing some information, I'd appreciate a reference or page citation that clears this matter up. Thanks.
I don't know if there is official canon to say this but I think there is a general assumption that by the Time of the Descent the majority of the Ilythiiri (as a society) had turned to the worship of evil powers (the gods that would form the Drow panthenon) and dealing with tanar'ric allies...majority meaning a "good" Ilythiiri would be unusual to a rogue...like the majority of orcs and their society is evil but there are exceptions and an orc is not born evil (agressive yes, not evil)
On the other hand I think the currupted gold elves of Aryvandor were in the minority of gold elves (but I think there was more than 1 corrupt house  ) and though the gold elf race seems predisposed to racism and arrogance they are not an evil (society) race...
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 20:19:04
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quote:
Pardon my questioning of your assertion Chataro, but I've not read anything in any FR novel or game that indicates that "most" of the Ilythiiri were evil prior to the descent.
There is not much, however I recall a passage that Vhearaun lost followers to Lolth, followers of Vhearaun likely would be following a path of Evil. There are passages of the dark elves opening worshiping Evil deities perhaps about time of the Third Crown war. To openly worship and not be put down by those that followed Good deities tends to point to a majority of the Ilythiiri were following evil deities.
Eilistraee of course lost many followers in the Dark Disaster, though clearly could have had some amoung the Ilythiiri as well.
Ancient history is not well recorded though.
quote:
Drow are flawed
Perhaps in one way, light blindness.
Other then that this subrace is surperior to other elven sub-races. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 23:43:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Drow are flawed
Flawed how? As Kentinal mentions, given the drows various spell-like abilities and other powers the race has, they would seem to be more powerful than normal elves, not less so.
Besides, they weren't really drow until after the descent. Were the Ilythiiri (pre-descent drow) any more or less flawed than the gold elves of Aryvandor?
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There is not much, however I recall a passage that Vhearaun lost followers to Lolth, followers of Vhearaun likely would be following a path of Evil. There are passages of the dark elves opening worshiping Evil deities perhaps about time of the Third Crown war. To openly worship and not be put down by those that followed Good deities tends to point to a majority of the Ilythiiri were following evil deities.
I don't recall that particular passage Kentinal. Steve Schend writes in CEoE of the Ilythiiri being so enraged by the destruction of the kingdom of Miyeritar that, "their battle rage and sheer barbarism destroyed the Realm of Shantel Othreier..." Schend also writes about their "nonelven tactics, continued hostility and all consuming hatred for all but their own race..."
Nothing in either passage says to me that they were evil before the fall - just really P*O'd about the destruction of their kingdom and bound for vengence. Certainly they didn't exihbit the classic "chaotic good" behavior of most elves, but angry, xenophobic and war-like aren't the same as evil with no hope of redemption either.
I'm not saying that the Ilythiiri were all sweetness and light. They were barbaric and war-like. Still, I haven't found anyhing in their behavior that wasn't a direct response to abusive use of military power and High Magic by Gold Elf aggressors. Certainly nothing that called for a divine transformation for every Ilythiiri man woman and child (guilty or not) and permanent exile from everything and everyplace they had ever known. The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime.
And I guess that's what bothers me most about Corellon's role in this whole matter. As a "good" diety and supposed leader of the elven pantheon, his very hands-on (and heavy-handed) transformation of the Ilythiiri and his very hands-off treatment of the Aryvandor Gold Elves during the 5th Crown War just don't add up. Both groups were guilty of massive crimes against their brother elves - but only one group was transformed and banished from the upper world. It doesn't seem to make sense.
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"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 04:19:03
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One of the timelines WotC put out indicated dark deities were openly worshipped. I will have to do a search to try to find the URL.
Well found what might be a copy, please allow me to correct prior statement. It appears that open worship of dark deities did ovvur after the Dark Disaster. It though clearly indicates seceret worship in some Houses occured even before the Sundering.
As for punishing an entire sub-race, I have expressed my view on that a few times already. Not much point in repeating it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 14:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
One of the timelines WotC put out indicated dark deities were openly worshipped. I will have to do a search to try to find the URL.
Well found what might be a copy, please allow me to correct prior statement.
Would you share the url of that timeline, Kentinal. I'd like to have as much information as I can about this topic. It's one that's bothered me for years.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It appears that open worship of dark deities did occur after the Dark Disaster. It though clearly indicates seceret worship in some Houses occured even before the Sundering.
That doesn't surprise me at all. Let's face it - most of the elven sub-races have had individuals, families, and even some clans who were evil and/or worshiped evil patrons. And it's almost always done in secret. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
Edited by - Halidan on 14 Sep 2006 17:21:25 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 14:21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
I don't recall that particular passage Kentinal. Steve Schend writes in CEoE of the Ilythiiri being so enraged by the destruction of the kingdom of Miyeritar that, "their battle rage and sheer barbarism destroyed the Realm of Shantel Othreier..." Schend also writes about their "nonelven tactics, continued hostility and all consuming hatred for all but their own race..."
Nothing in either passage says to me that they were evil before the fall - just really P*O'd about the destruction of their kingdom and bound for vengence. Certainly they didn't exihbit the classic "chaotic good" behavior of most elves, but angry, xenophobic and war-like aren't the same as evil with no hope of redemption either.
I'm not saying that the Ilythiiri were all sweetness and light. They were barbaric and war-like. Still, I haven't found anyhing in their behavior that wasn't a direct response to abusive use of military power and High Magic by Gold Elf aggressors. Certainly nothing that called for a divine transformation for every Ilythiiri man woman and child (guilty or not) and permanent exile from everything and everyplace they had ever known. The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime.
And I guess that's what bothers me most about Corellon's role in this whole matter. As a "good" diety and supposed leader of the elven pantheon, his very hands-on (and heavy-handed) transformation of the Ilythiiri and his very hands-off treatment of the Aryvandor Gold Elves during the 5th Crown War just don't add up. Both groups were guilty of massive crimes against their brother elves - but only one group was transformed and banished from the upper world. It doesn't seem to make sense.
Off hand...
Read the first section of the novel Evermeet, the short story about the Ilythiiri Arch-Wizard and his wemic slave (Realms of Infamy?) and the source book Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves which has the greatest detail about the overall Crown Wars...more so than Lost Empires of Faerun
I think you have the wrong idea about the Ilythiiri...in the beginning they were savage and barbaric (most so like the worst characteristics if the Gold Elves) and in the end (as a whole culture) they were irredeemably currupt...poeticly "their hearts and souls were as dark as their skin"
Also, if you read Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves it is clear the Ilythiiri was on the warpath (Crown War #1) long before Arvanador started their Crown War (#2)
The question is not "why did Corellon decide on the Descent" (it's obvious the Ilythiiri had it coming) but "Why did Corellon not sift through the Ilythiiri population and spare the non-currupted Ilythiiri"? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 15:43:24
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This is just me repeating a point but I would like to point this possibility out again
exiling the drow was probably the only thing left he could do, since the elves were definately not going to leave the drow alone and vice versa. he did it at that time probably just to let the anger and hate of each race cool down first. Of course, at that time then he had no idea that Lolth was going to take control of the drow and launch a permanent war against the elves. The banishment was probably meant to last till the races finally can coexist in peace......
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 16:46:50
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http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=4 is timeline leading to Crow wars.
-18000 Some Ilythiiri houses discover Ghaunadaur and begin venerating him in secret. In the centuries that follow, rival Ilythiiri houses turn to other dark deities, such as Lolth.
-11500 Thearnytaar and Eiellur declare war on Ilythiir and attempt to prevent the Ilythiiri from advancing north. Lolth sends the balor lord Wendonai to seduce a high Ilythiiri clan into her service. The church of Lolth rises to prominence.
-10500 The Dark Disaster reduces Miyeritar to a dead wasteland. The Crown Wars halt for a time while the elves reassess what they have done.
There is more items of course at the URL of the fall of the Ilythiiri
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 17:26:09
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Yes I saw that, it is called the Crow Wars because there were Dark Elves involved *wink*
The fair elves call it the Crown Wars and ptrsent their own twisted history of the events.
Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves does claim Dark Elves started the first war, the time line clearly states that " The First Crown War begins. Aryvandaar invades Miyeritar and pressures Shantel Othreier to accept Aryvandaaran occupation or suffer the same fate."
Of course Ilythiiri spies and assassins get credit for starting the War of Three Leaves a few thousand years before the first Crown War started, even before The Vyshaan clan, under Coronal Iv--saar Vyshaan, takes power in Aryvandaar.
Not sure if there is a canon conflict here or not. New lore replaces old lore, source books considered better then novels if both came out about the same time. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 14 Sep 2006 17:48:05 |
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Random Speculation On Corellon's Big Plans
