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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 21:44:47
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I was curious about banks in the Forgotten Realms. Are there banks and if there are how common are they? Are they just in large cities such as Waterdeep and the like or are they more common? Do they work basically like real life banks? Thank you in advance for any help.
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You never fail until you stop trying. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 21:48:00
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| There are banks, I think, but they are more like places where you can "store" money. No account to account transfer, no checkbooks, no wiring money, so if you go from, say, Waterdeep to Silverymoon you better pack those tradebars |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 21:54:15
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| I think if Mirt the Moneylender is any indication, the "banks" of the Realms exist mostly in the form of individual moneylenders. Depending on their personality, organization, and operations you can have a benevolent moneylender, who play fairly by their own rules and function very much like banks, or people who would correspond to modern day loan sharks and mobsters, who freely practice sordid methods to enforce repayment. As for more formalized bank systems, that is a question for the wise and experienced loremasters and greater scribes of Candlekeep. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 22:13:07
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| There are merchant companies, costers, and enterprises that people invest money in, and agents who manage investments, and people who will hide and guard your coin for a fee, and rentable storage spaces, and moneylenders and -changers, but not banks in the modern sense. |
Edited by - Faraer on 25 Aug 2006 22:14:49 |
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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 01:05:17
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| Interesting, so there are companies you can invest money into and people you can pay to guard you money but no banks where you can put money into safekeeping and withdraw different amounts when needed? |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 01:10:06
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| Generally anyone with enough money to warrant storing it will have their own personal vault (or hidden stash out of town) |
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EvilKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 14:05:57
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I have costers that will issue a writ that can be exchanged for coin. Usually at a certain place after a certain date. That way they do not have to send trade bars around all the time.
EvilKnight |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 15:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sparhawk42
Interesting, so there are companies you can invest money into and people you can pay to guard you money but no banks where you can put money into safekeeping and withdraw different amounts when needed?
I seem to recall references to places like "cache-houses"; one was mentioned in The Night Parade. It wasn't as much a bank as it was like a business with nothing but safe deposit boxes. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 17:49:43
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Great, thanks for all the help everyone! |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2006 : 05:29:07
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| Well in the Priestess of pain book the individual withdrew money from a moneylender, who he had given money to hold for him. So thats one way i would do that if i was doing a game right now. |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
515 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 15:28:14
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I can't imagine there not being banks in some places in the realms. I'd consider moneylenders individuals who are basically rich and operate like a small bank. A bank I would think of being composed of many moneylenders being paid but the owner(s) and having ties to other simpler businesses in other areas of the world.
I've run churches that work like banks in some respect, for a price they will create a "note" that could be carried easily between two points and then redeemed for that amount of gold. I figure church like Lathander, Waukeen, etc would do such things at least for their followers and at a fee. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 16:05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I've run churches that work like banks in some respect, for a price they will create a "note" that could be carried easily between two points and then redeemed for that amount of gold. I figure church like Lathander, Waukeen, etc would do such things at least for their followers and at a fee.
Waukeenar do, in fact, tend to run some of their temples as "moneylending" locales... within large cities across the Realms.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 16:15:35
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| In my honest opinion, banks are one of those "modern" things (like magical technology and hospitals) what has been relatively untouched in the Realms...(glances over at that other 3E campaign) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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old man
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 23:26:11
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| If I'm not mistaken, the basics of banking aren't really new at all. Didn't the Templars have branch banking during the Crusades? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 23:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by old man
If I'm not mistaken, the basics of banking aren't really new at all. Didn't the Templars have branch banking during the Crusades?
Indeed they did. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 04:21:32
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| I have read several books on subjects about Rome and it's people. one of my favorites was about a Roman Officer and it had several scenes that pertained to banks and money type transfers, across far distances. This has always amazed me, for I too thought the banking system to be more modern than even the height of the Roman Empire. And to keep this realms related. I think a banking system in the realms is very plausible, magical wire transfers could be the next best thing in money exchange. |
Edited by - scererar on 30 Aug 2006 04:22:18 |
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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 04:28:47
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| There are some very good ideas and useful information here! Thank you to everyone for the help. |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 04:34:50
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_Pools of Darkness_ provided vaults (at least in the SSI computer implimentation) that offered banks simalar to what the Templars did. Which was hold assests until owner returned (some never did) or loan on deposited assets (Yes I will loan you 100 for the gemstone).
I am less conversent with Rome and the time period clearly matters as Christians were not allowed to charge interest for hundreds of years, however Rome was (what is now called) pagan for hundred of years as well. There of course were work arrounds about no interest, incliding taking loans from other faiths, but also the lender getting to manage pledge assest for a profit (mostly land). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 04:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
_Pools of Darkness_ provided vaults (at least in the SSI computer implimentation) that offered banks simalar to what the Templars did. Which was hold assests until owner returned (some never did) or loan on deposited assets (Yes I will loan you 100 for the gemstone).
I am less conversent with Rome and the time period clearly matters as Christians were not allowed to charge interest for hundreds of years, however Rome was (what is now called) pagan for hundred of years as well. There of course were work arrounds about no interest, incliding taking loans from other faiths, but also the lender getting to manage pledge assest for a profit (mostly land).
right, it is, was or whatever called Usury. check out the following link if anyone is interested ( warning it does include some religious reasonings) http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/jones.usury I don't think the realms would have these types of issues though. especially the church of Waukeen or the city states of Sembia, among others. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 05:35:05
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One thing all should recall, the Realms have at first glance an appearance of Medieval Europe (of other sections of Earth), but the Realms are not designed to copy the Earth at that point (800 to 1,200 year) of time.
Indeed Earth people gained income from loaning money, and paid interest for storing wealth. I am not just away of any Realms or even D&D product that directly charged interest or even demanded a percentage fee for loans (There often have been offered agreements for advanced funds for percentage of found wealth). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 05:45:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
One thing all should recall, the Realms have at first glance an appearance of Medieval Europe (of other sections of Earth), but the Realms are not designed to copy the Earth at that point (800 to 1,200 year) of time.
Indeed Earth people gained income from loaning money, and paid interest for storing wealth. I am not just away of any Realms or even D&D product that directly charged interest or even demanded a percentage fee for loans (There often have been offered agreements for advanced funds for percentage of found wealth).
one example my friend would be on page 32 of who's who in waterdeep (the 2E city of splendors boxed set) specifically states moneylending as a respectful and mildly competitive occupation. it is even governed by waterdeep law, as to how many bodygaurds one may have, among other rules. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 21:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
In my honest opinion, banks are one of those "modern" things (like magical technology and hospitals) what has been relatively untouched in the Realms...(glances over at that other 3E campaign)
One of the first banks in Earth's historical record (as opposed to temples advancing seed or such like) was the Babylonian firm of Egibi, whom conspiracy theorists point to as the first Jewish international bankers because of their role in backing a claimant to the throne of Persia. In fact, the vast majority of their business consisted of making small loans to free peasants to buy seeds or fishnets, or repair houses -- precisely what the smaller moneylenders of Faerun do. Someone like Mirt might be able to bankroll a small kingdom, and some other moneylenders bankroll the pecadilloes of certain noble families, but I am sure that most of them function like proto-credit unions or savings & loans.
Of course, "What do I know?"
The truly pedantic may wish to check out Business and Politics Under the Persian Empire: The Financial Dealings of Marduk-Nasir-Apli of the House of Egibi (521-487 B.C.E. (http://www.ecampus.com/book/1883053811"). |
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 30 Aug 2006 21:42:35 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 17:24:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sparhawk42
I was curious about banks in the Forgotten Realms. Are there banks and if there are how common are they? Are they just in large cities such as Waterdeep and the like or are they more common? Do they work basically like real life banks? Thank you in advance for any help.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
One of the first banks in Earth's historical record (as opposed to temples advancing seed or such like) was the Babylonian firm of Egibi, whom conspiracy theorists point to as the first Jewish international bankers because of their role in backing a claimant to the throne of Persia. In fact, the vast majority of their business consisted of making small loans to free peasants to buy seeds or fishnets, or repair houses -- precisely what the smaller moneylenders of Faerun do. Someone like Mirt might be able to bankroll a small kingdom, and some other moneylenders bankroll the pecadilloes of certain noble families, but I am sure that most of them function like proto-credit unions or savings & loans.
Of course, "What do I know?"
The truly pedantic may wish to check out Business and Politics Under the Persian Empire: The Financial Dealings of Marduk-Nasir-Apli of the House of Egibi (521-487 B.C.E..
I guess I should have put more emphasis on the word modern in my reply and should have chosen the word undeveloped instead of untouched in the Realms...as in Sparhawk42’s questions “How common are banks?”, “are they just in big cities” and “Do they work basically like real life banks”.
Of course there have been banks for millennia in the real world, it wouldn’t surprise me when true currency was invented the inventor had already envisioned banks (to make a profit). So as everyone said there were moneylenders and storage business and what not.
My point was that (as Kentinal pointed out) Ed and the other designers have chosen not to develop “banking” in the Realms as it naturally developed in the real world. I was also trying to say that there are other modern comforts like hospitals, communications, sewer/water systems, mass transit, etc. that have not been developed in the Realms...to preserve the flavor of the Realms.
As it has been discussed in other threads (and among my players group since the Eberron campaign was published) this point then evolves into the “Technology in the Realms” discussion...which I think should be redefined as “Modern Technology in the Realms” and “Modern Concepts and Conveniences in the Realms” as a bank is less technology and more a economical concept and convenience to society.
(Though many spells or magical effects that have been developed in D&D and the Realms imitate modern technology like the message spells and cellular phones, nchaser’s [sp?] glowing globe and modern lights, micro-gates to the elemental plane of air for modern ventilation systems and there even was a spell in the 2E Pages from the Mages where a picture was taken and stored in a glass globe...just like modern photography. There are even businesses [like Aurora’s Whole Realms Catalog or the Thayan enclaves] that use magic and modern techniques to create pseudo-companies in the Realms.)
I do not want to get into this “modern” discussion in this thread too deeply but logically there should be as much magical modern technology and conveniences (like banking) in the Realms as there is in Eberron (my sad attempt of being sly in the “glances over at that other 3E campaign” part of my post).
To me logically their should be either a shrine or bank of Waukeen in every settlement (at least over 100 persons) in the Realms to provide banking services and possibly even investments...which other businesses in the area would profit from.
It is that I just cannot escape the basic logic of civilization that “necessity is the mother of invention”, the drive to “make the better mousetrap” and the simple hunger for wealth that the “supply and demand” of capitalism creates in a society. In my 20-some years of DMing I have and many others I have known have attempted to bring modern ideas into the Realms...and as I have said before 3E has made this possibility even easier (actually I think it started with spelljammer)
I would also like to state that I do not want the Realms to develop into a highly (magically) technological kind of world as D&D has another world for that kind of game now  
sorry for the long post 
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 18:06:49
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"I was also trying to say that there are other modern comforts like hospitals, communications, sewer/water systems, mass transit, etc. that have not been developed in the Realms...to preserve the flavor of the Realms."
All of these exist in the realms except for, possibly, the mass transit systems. :) Waterdeep, and many other places, have sewers/water systems. Communications do exist as well. So do insane asilums and hospitals. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 18:53:13
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quote:
Originally posted by KujeAll of these exist in the realms except for, possibly, the mass transit systems. :) Waterdeep, and many other places, have sewers/water systems. Communications do exist as well. So do insane asilums and hospitals.
I don't disagree with anything you say
my point is that these "luxuries" are not widespread in the Realms (even throughout the largest cities) even though the resources and demand for these luxuries would be found in the Realms and someone would have capitalized on this (like Aurora) and that there are no "modern banks" in the Realms because it is not Realmsian...
you would think in a city at least 25,000 + that there would be a hospital and a bank...that possibly they would have a waste/water disposal/treatment system that had plumbing into every home and a mail system (off the top of my head)
I hate to refer to Eberron again but look and see what they did with the Dragonmark Houses...mass hospitals, guides, inventors, mercanaries, guards, scribes, etc. Each kingdom and city at least having some presence of each house...
Long ago I had a PC mage (2E) I was running start a side-buisness with a bunch of apprentices using only the 2E cantrip spell to start a house cleaning service in Waterdeep In a few years we made thousands of gold as we were quicker and cheaper for houses that paid and supported in-house servants to clean their homes...plus we had cheaper rates for the middle classes...
the company was named "the Mystic Maids" |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Banks
